Being a Positive Influence in Changing the Future of Our Aviation Industry & Communit
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Lead Balloon, I work as an IT manager for a medium size business in Sydney. The company I work for imports and distribute Industrial Diamond Tools and equipment.
<a href="http://www.tyrolit.com/com/index.html" target="_blank">TYROLIT</a>. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Dogimed, last try with you. You keep asking questions but give little in the way of answers.
The GAA is the General Aviation Association. GAPA is the General Aviation Proffesional Association. As to why you haven't heard of them one can only speculate.
You seem to agree that sport aviation should have their own group, and helicopters too. What exactly, for the third time, does AOPA do at this time, for whom, and with what resourses?
If you are the body for all things slab wing with one engine on a Sunday then that is fine and beaut, but it really needs someone to spell it out so that we might be better informed.
If you are the body for retiring QF captains who like to fly Tiger Moths then that is also fine and beaut.
I for one would like to know what it is you've got at this very time and what your track record is.
The answers to these simple questions seem very hard to come by.
There is another mob around who claim to only do parliamentary representation for pilots. So what?
As to your question of what to do when CASA comes calling I respectfully suggest that if you have fouled up you engage a competent lawyer who understands the problem after you seek the guidance of a aviation consultant. There are such people who make a living of knowing what they are talking about rather than a hobby. No, I'm not one by gaunty might know who is. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
The GAA is the General Aviation Association. GAPA is the General Aviation Proffesional Association. As to why you haven't heard of them one can only speculate.
You seem to agree that sport aviation should have their own group, and helicopters too. What exactly, for the third time, does AOPA do at this time, for whom, and with what resourses?
If you are the body for all things slab wing with one engine on a Sunday then that is fine and beaut, but it really needs someone to spell it out so that we might be better informed.
If you are the body for retiring QF captains who like to fly Tiger Moths then that is also fine and beaut.
I for one would like to know what it is you've got at this very time and what your track record is.
The answers to these simple questions seem very hard to come by.
There is another mob around who claim to only do parliamentary representation for pilots. So what?
As to your question of what to do when CASA comes calling I respectfully suggest that if you have fouled up you engage a competent lawyer who understands the problem after you seek the guidance of a aviation consultant. There are such people who make a living of knowing what they are talking about rather than a hobby. No, I'm not one by gaunty might know who is. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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Can someone please tell me,(in a formative, professional way), just what we want changed. I am happy with my job, I fly amongst Regional RPT, Airline, Gliding, Ultralight and Parachuting areas, not to mention military areas, and have no problem. Either do 100% of my colleages. You know what, stay current, read your ERSA, AIP, REGS, MAPS, Notams and most of all keep a good lookout. Sure it would be nice for you to have a nice piece of the sky to fly in without the hassle, but think of the road, it's no different, rules and regs and people still get killed. At least Aviators have a bit of common sense, well most of us.Stop trying to do CASA's job, if you would like to,join them or read and respond to the NPRM's that they produce.
Now I, would really like to know about the PT6, if someone has a start on where to get information on this little beauty without paying an arm and a leg for it, ie a web site, please leave a post. Many thanks in forward.
Now I, would really like to know about the PT6, if someone has a start on where to get information on this little beauty without paying an arm and a leg for it, ie a web site, please leave a post. Many thanks in forward.
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snide remark
As usual, quite so.
I liked best the bit, . . . . [quote] A tiny and simple example might be this..... I own an aircraft and I offer it for rent. I want to buy a new one and so do the other owners on the field and so we get together in a corner and conspire to raise the price to you hirers. So I'm the aircraft owner and you're the pilot and we're in the same association. Who's "rights" are you going to champion here? Will you run off and tell the Minister or CASA they have all got it wrong?
<hr></blockquote>
That's been their story as long as I can remember.
It is simple, I have never in my life ever been under any misapprehension that aviation, recreational, in tin aircraft was never ever anything but a very expensive hobby and in the same arena as say owning a Bertram 42'. Try AUD400,000 for starters for a good clean and tidy one. And the price of a new one is similar to that of a new C182. 'Twas so 20 years ago 'tis today.
If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
OK so you joind an aero club and get to 'share' the cost and rent one, but the costs remain the same nonetheless.
So what's the difference between renting a Bertram 42 for an hour or two and a Cessna 182, both recreational, both cost about the same to run and insure.
Why can't you rent a Bertram 42?? Anyone??
So why aren't the boating enthusiasts forming a BOPA picketing the Minister for Boats bleating about insurance, the rules, marina and nav charges making it soooo expensive that they can't indulge their heroic fantasies for a couple of hours here and there without having to make a serious committment.
If the operators were charging anywhere near what they should for equipment then in relevant terms the costs of the regulatory bits would be as a flea on the a&se of an elephant.
Ooooooooooh but then I couldn't afford to go round the houses on Sun morning, guess what over 98% of the population can't afford it either.
You'll get the Bertam owners attention at meetings to reduce or keep costs under control, why not, but see how you get on asking him to lend you his boat for a quiet stroll down the river if you offer pay a quarter of the cost of its operation.
So you recreational aviators out there, don't confuse aircraft owners support and membership of whatever "owners and operators club" which campaigns to keeps costs down as support for your "rights" to get 'discount' flying.
The sports aircraft guys have got it going in the right direction as they are unashamedly following a sport that happens to involve aircraft.
So lets get some focus here.
AOPA used to stand for the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association they say
[quote]FREEDOM TO FLY RESPONSIBLY, and PAY YOUR OWN WAY AND HAVE YOUR OWN SAY <hr></blockquote>
I see precious little evidence that the vast bulk of the members see any responsibility to the owners of the aircraft they rent or are willing to pay their way, but they certainly have plenty to say. Usually "we want it cheaper"
I say again, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it, it's not the owners, the Ministers, the regulators, the manufacturers, the local airport owner or Uncle Tom Cobley and all's fault.
It costs what it costs.
NOTHING but NOTHING will ever change for this sector of aviation, the one that seems to be making the most noise and neither will the people with the capital and desire to invest in it, until it agrees to start paying its own way and that means big big heaps more than you are now.
You want change? OK!!
So who is going to run for the AOPA committee on that platform? Anyone.?. .And you'd better find someone real quick lest you be condemned to remain the irrelevancy that you have become.
As usual, quite so.
I liked best the bit, . . . . [quote] A tiny and simple example might be this..... I own an aircraft and I offer it for rent. I want to buy a new one and so do the other owners on the field and so we get together in a corner and conspire to raise the price to you hirers. So I'm the aircraft owner and you're the pilot and we're in the same association. Who's "rights" are you going to champion here? Will you run off and tell the Minister or CASA they have all got it wrong?
<hr></blockquote>
That's been their story as long as I can remember.
It is simple, I have never in my life ever been under any misapprehension that aviation, recreational, in tin aircraft was never ever anything but a very expensive hobby and in the same arena as say owning a Bertram 42'. Try AUD400,000 for starters for a good clean and tidy one. And the price of a new one is similar to that of a new C182. 'Twas so 20 years ago 'tis today.
If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
OK so you joind an aero club and get to 'share' the cost and rent one, but the costs remain the same nonetheless.
So what's the difference between renting a Bertram 42 for an hour or two and a Cessna 182, both recreational, both cost about the same to run and insure.
Why can't you rent a Bertram 42?? Anyone??
So why aren't the boating enthusiasts forming a BOPA picketing the Minister for Boats bleating about insurance, the rules, marina and nav charges making it soooo expensive that they can't indulge their heroic fantasies for a couple of hours here and there without having to make a serious committment.
If the operators were charging anywhere near what they should for equipment then in relevant terms the costs of the regulatory bits would be as a flea on the a&se of an elephant.
Ooooooooooh but then I couldn't afford to go round the houses on Sun morning, guess what over 98% of the population can't afford it either.
You'll get the Bertam owners attention at meetings to reduce or keep costs under control, why not, but see how you get on asking him to lend you his boat for a quiet stroll down the river if you offer pay a quarter of the cost of its operation.
So you recreational aviators out there, don't confuse aircraft owners support and membership of whatever "owners and operators club" which campaigns to keeps costs down as support for your "rights" to get 'discount' flying.
The sports aircraft guys have got it going in the right direction as they are unashamedly following a sport that happens to involve aircraft.
So lets get some focus here.
AOPA used to stand for the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association they say
[quote]FREEDOM TO FLY RESPONSIBLY, and PAY YOUR OWN WAY AND HAVE YOUR OWN SAY <hr></blockquote>
I see precious little evidence that the vast bulk of the members see any responsibility to the owners of the aircraft they rent or are willing to pay their way, but they certainly have plenty to say. Usually "we want it cheaper"
I say again, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it, it's not the owners, the Ministers, the regulators, the manufacturers, the local airport owner or Uncle Tom Cobley and all's fault.
It costs what it costs.
NOTHING but NOTHING will ever change for this sector of aviation, the one that seems to be making the most noise and neither will the people with the capital and desire to invest in it, until it agrees to start paying its own way and that means big big heaps more than you are now.
You want change? OK!!
So who is going to run for the AOPA committee on that platform? Anyone.?. .And you'd better find someone real quick lest you be condemned to remain the irrelevancy that you have become.
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Snide,
Okaaay, lets see if I can sum this up. Although bear in mind, I am not trying to get people to join AOPA, people can pick and choose who they want. I (and I should have made this clear earlier) just do not see the benefit of bagging about the only body doing something half right. Fair enough to throw stones, but people out there are bright enough to make up their own minds. It has been said its a "w$%king club" fair enough, "boys own club" or whatever they would like to call AOPA. But why? I do not see the point in publicly sniping a body that is a not for profit organisation, *at least* trying to represent a few pilots. If you dont like it, dont join, but why try to convince yourself your right by trying to get others not to join. Seems to me some of us are not as confident in leaving AOPA alone. Let it go if you dont like it, AOPA I'm sure will not be hurt, but trying to justify why people dont like it by convincing others not to join is silly. I dont like MacDonalds, I am confident in my decision, I do not need others to back me up.
As to what AOPA does? It represents Pilots and Aircraft Owners against government and others in regards to trying to lose (and I'll tow the party line) unnecessary costs and restrictions.
. .Is AOPA a QF retirement village? Yeah, unfortunatly, but I'll be able to vote for someone else when elections come around.
. .One can assume that AOPA is trying to branch out into HAA and SAAA and AUF territory, why? because it needs a stronger body, why, because it wants to unify what is left of the industry representatives, why, because it wants to grow, why, it needs a bigger voice, why, to be more effective, why so that people like you and me can be better represented, why, because who else is there?
AOPA at least are not (figure of speech) racially motivated, they do not segregate the different parts of the industry, instead they are trying to unite them.
To be honest with you, I do not know what AOPA are doing at the moment. I know that they consult and are being consulted by the government on issues which no doubt concern us. Unfortunately I am never invited to attend these meetings to find out what goes on. Why, because I am a single pilot with a small voice.
You want to know what AOPA do? read the mag, its not too bad these days. If you want to know what AOPA do, maybe you should give them a call and ask.
I think special types of aviation should have their own representatives, but why not unite them under one banner to make a louder voice. They can have a body that specifically looks after them, but maybe its time that there is a alliance between them all.
Again, if you want to know what AOPA do, find out from them, they wont swear at you or belittle you. .Again, if you dont like AOPA dont join.
The Board is a volunteer group who are elected to the committee. Selfish bunch they are too, working in their spare time <GASP> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> trying to help people they dont know in an industry that doesn't care. Bastards! They should quit their jobs and work full time and be paid to do the stuff they do eh? ..Gawd can you imagine the ruckus that would go on because of that!.
. .Anyways, enough time wasted.
Dog
. .P.s no I havent fouled up.
Yet....
Okaaay, lets see if I can sum this up. Although bear in mind, I am not trying to get people to join AOPA, people can pick and choose who they want. I (and I should have made this clear earlier) just do not see the benefit of bagging about the only body doing something half right. Fair enough to throw stones, but people out there are bright enough to make up their own minds. It has been said its a "w$%king club" fair enough, "boys own club" or whatever they would like to call AOPA. But why? I do not see the point in publicly sniping a body that is a not for profit organisation, *at least* trying to represent a few pilots. If you dont like it, dont join, but why try to convince yourself your right by trying to get others not to join. Seems to me some of us are not as confident in leaving AOPA alone. Let it go if you dont like it, AOPA I'm sure will not be hurt, but trying to justify why people dont like it by convincing others not to join is silly. I dont like MacDonalds, I am confident in my decision, I do not need others to back me up.
As to what AOPA does? It represents Pilots and Aircraft Owners against government and others in regards to trying to lose (and I'll tow the party line) unnecessary costs and restrictions.
. .Is AOPA a QF retirement village? Yeah, unfortunatly, but I'll be able to vote for someone else when elections come around.
. .One can assume that AOPA is trying to branch out into HAA and SAAA and AUF territory, why? because it needs a stronger body, why, because it wants to unify what is left of the industry representatives, why, because it wants to grow, why, it needs a bigger voice, why, to be more effective, why so that people like you and me can be better represented, why, because who else is there?
AOPA at least are not (figure of speech) racially motivated, they do not segregate the different parts of the industry, instead they are trying to unite them.
To be honest with you, I do not know what AOPA are doing at the moment. I know that they consult and are being consulted by the government on issues which no doubt concern us. Unfortunately I am never invited to attend these meetings to find out what goes on. Why, because I am a single pilot with a small voice.
You want to know what AOPA do? read the mag, its not too bad these days. If you want to know what AOPA do, maybe you should give them a call and ask.
I think special types of aviation should have their own representatives, but why not unite them under one banner to make a louder voice. They can have a body that specifically looks after them, but maybe its time that there is a alliance between them all.
Again, if you want to know what AOPA do, find out from them, they wont swear at you or belittle you. .Again, if you dont like AOPA dont join.
The Board is a volunteer group who are elected to the committee. Selfish bunch they are too, working in their spare time <GASP> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> trying to help people they dont know in an industry that doesn't care. Bastards! They should quit their jobs and work full time and be paid to do the stuff they do eh? ..Gawd can you imagine the ruckus that would go on because of that!.
. .Anyways, enough time wasted.
Dog
. .P.s no I havent fouled up.
Yet....
Thread Starter
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Thanks for all your responses to this particular "Discussion".
It has been good to see what people particularly stand for and the different view points in our aviation community by the comments good <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> and bad. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
I hope you all have a nice weekend and happy flying if you're flying, and see you back here next week online.
. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
It has been good to see what people particularly stand for and the different view points in our aviation community by the comments good <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> and bad. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
I hope you all have a nice weekend and happy flying if you're flying, and see you back here next week online.
. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Dogimed, great comments and support for aviation, and a true believer by the looks of it.
Do you fly out of Sydney, drop us a line if you do, it would be good to catch up one time.
I have to run see you next week.
AW . . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Do you fly out of Sydney, drop us a line if you do, it would be good to catch up one time.
I have to run see you next week.
AW . . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Hmmmmm. If I had a dime …..
AW: Yes - I am Bob Roberts and Lead Balloon and anyone else you want to say I am.
You’ve just demonstrated one of the reasons you can’t get unanimity. You think that the merits of my proposal are affected by my identity and employer. Into astrology and aromatherapy as well, are you?
Dogimed: Sit boy! Siiiiiiit. Stay. Now pay attention: I think my proposal’s an excellent one. That’s why I proposed it. But that’s not the point. I am waiting to see if I can get unanimous support. So far, it’s just you and me.
Velocity: hear, hear!
AW: Yes - I am Bob Roberts and Lead Balloon and anyone else you want to say I am.
You’ve just demonstrated one of the reasons you can’t get unanimity. You think that the merits of my proposal are affected by my identity and employer. Into astrology and aromatherapy as well, are you?
Dogimed: Sit boy! Siiiiiiit. Stay. Now pay attention: I think my proposal’s an excellent one. That’s why I proposed it. But that’s not the point. I am waiting to see if I can get unanimous support. So far, it’s just you and me.
Velocity: hear, hear!
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Bob (Creampuff), I just got home. and are just having a quick look through at what has been happening on here. I want you to know I am not against you or CASA. If I can be of help please let me know, you can always email me, and I would love to have a look at proposals and give you constructive positive feed back.
I was just having a look at the pdf file that you posted this afternoon "Rural and Regional …… Tuesday 19th Feb 2002". I have saved the pdf file and will read though it over the weekend, so I can consume it further.
Have a good weekend,
AW . . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I was just having a look at the pdf file that you posted this afternoon "Rural and Regional …… Tuesday 19th Feb 2002". I have saved the pdf file and will read though it over the weekend, so I can consume it further.
Have a good weekend,
AW . . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Aussie P
I agree with the sentiment. It is difficult to work toward consensus and thus change when the nature of consultation and discussion is often aggressively defensive in the absence of solutions!
Snide
Quote:. . [quote] Why doesn't someone tell us what AOPA is and what it's core business is? Who do you purport to serve? How many staff do you employ? Flash as a rat mission statements that actually put fellow aviators to conflict is not the way toward harmony, strength or effectiveness IMHO.<hr></blockquote>
Concur. . .For those unaware of some of the technical aspects of this debate on Airspace can be viewed on the string “New Airspace Proposal” posted earlier this month.
Dog. . [quote] As to what AOPA does? It represents Pilots and Aircraft Owners against government and others in regards to trying to lose (and I'll tow the party line) unnecessary costs and restrictions.<hr></blockquote>
Who are you relying on to assess and communicate what your view is? Have you been asked? Do they ask anyone? Or is the “retirement village” deciding?
[quote] AOPA at least are not (figure of speech) racially motivated, they do not segregate the different parts of the industry, instead they are trying to unite them.. .To be honest with you, I do not know what AOPA are doing at the moment. I know that they consult and are being consulted by the government on issues which no doubt concern us. Unfortunately I am never invited to attend these meetings to find out what goes on. Why, because I am a single pilot with a small voice. . .You want to know what AOPA do? read the mag, its not too bad these days. If you want to know what AOPA do, maybe you should give them a call and ask.<hr></blockquote>
Your principle representative had this to say:
[quote] AOPA Aust . .Just another number . .Member # 48707 posted 06 February 2002 23:53
For those who do not wish to read the AOPA postion as detailed in the magazine, that is fine by me, but I do not intend to repeat it here.<hr></blockquote>
Can’t see that attitude creating credibility and discussion in industry!
[quote] Again, if you want to know what AOPA do, find out from them, they wont swear at you or belittle you. .Again, if you dont like AOPA dont join.<hr></blockquote>
How are the memberships of late I wonder? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I left when Pete was kneecapped! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Gaunty- Salute! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Woomera – GG’s job might be vacant soon! With your considered nature perhaps you could moonlight!
I agree with the sentiment. It is difficult to work toward consensus and thus change when the nature of consultation and discussion is often aggressively defensive in the absence of solutions!
Snide
Quote:. . [quote] Why doesn't someone tell us what AOPA is and what it's core business is? Who do you purport to serve? How many staff do you employ? Flash as a rat mission statements that actually put fellow aviators to conflict is not the way toward harmony, strength or effectiveness IMHO.<hr></blockquote>
Concur. . .For those unaware of some of the technical aspects of this debate on Airspace can be viewed on the string “New Airspace Proposal” posted earlier this month.
Dog. . [quote] As to what AOPA does? It represents Pilots and Aircraft Owners against government and others in regards to trying to lose (and I'll tow the party line) unnecessary costs and restrictions.<hr></blockquote>
Who are you relying on to assess and communicate what your view is? Have you been asked? Do they ask anyone? Or is the “retirement village” deciding?
[quote] AOPA at least are not (figure of speech) racially motivated, they do not segregate the different parts of the industry, instead they are trying to unite them.. .To be honest with you, I do not know what AOPA are doing at the moment. I know that they consult and are being consulted by the government on issues which no doubt concern us. Unfortunately I am never invited to attend these meetings to find out what goes on. Why, because I am a single pilot with a small voice. . .You want to know what AOPA do? read the mag, its not too bad these days. If you want to know what AOPA do, maybe you should give them a call and ask.<hr></blockquote>
Your principle representative had this to say:
[quote] AOPA Aust . .Just another number . .Member # 48707 posted 06 February 2002 23:53
For those who do not wish to read the AOPA postion as detailed in the magazine, that is fine by me, but I do not intend to repeat it here.<hr></blockquote>
Can’t see that attitude creating credibility and discussion in industry!
[quote] Again, if you want to know what AOPA do, find out from them, they wont swear at you or belittle you. .Again, if you dont like AOPA dont join.<hr></blockquote>
How are the memberships of late I wonder? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I left when Pete was kneecapped! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Gaunty- Salute! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Woomera – GG’s job might be vacant soon! With your considered nature perhaps you could moonlight!
Moderator
Here we go again. . .Quote from Aussie Pilot, keen for "changes" to our industry:
"I work as an IT manager for a medium size business in Sydney. The company I work for imports and distribute Industrial Diamond Tools and equipment."
Sounds great, good on you; but excuse me, how seriously would you take it if a flying instructor like me, who had a home PC that they understood just enough to send emails and get a regular dose of Pprune, started proposing changes that would affect your IT business?!
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Well meaning and ill informed amateurs, especially when led by people with the sort of attitudes we have seen here from AOPA big wigs, can and do cause more havok to our industry than a few bods bitching about the competition (which I would assume happens in IT, and most other industries as well). Most of us GA operators are too busy running our businesses to get involved in "tearing the industry apart"
Have a nice day.
"I work as an IT manager for a medium size business in Sydney. The company I work for imports and distribute Industrial Diamond Tools and equipment."
Sounds great, good on you; but excuse me, how seriously would you take it if a flying instructor like me, who had a home PC that they understood just enough to send emails and get a regular dose of Pprune, started proposing changes that would affect your IT business?!
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Well meaning and ill informed amateurs, especially when led by people with the sort of attitudes we have seen here from AOPA big wigs, can and do cause more havok to our industry than a few bods bitching about the competition (which I would assume happens in IT, and most other industries as well). Most of us GA operators are too busy running our businesses to get involved in "tearing the industry apart"
Have a nice day.
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Morning all,
Capcom,
as stated by you by AOPA's rep. "
Your principle representative had this to say:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------. . AOPA Aust . .Just another number . .Member # 48707 posted 06 February 2002 23:53 . .For those who do not wish to read the AOPA postion as detailed in the magazine, that is fine by me, but I do not intend to repeat it here.
. .--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" . .My answer to that?!. .What a D%^khead.
Charlie Foxtrot Indea. . [quote] Sounds great, good on you; but excuse me, how seriously would you take it if a flying instructor like me, who had a home PC that they understood just enough to send emails and get a regular dose of Pprune, started proposing changes that would affect your IT business?!
<hr></blockquote>
Charlie, firstly, even though I have no company, I would listen. Secondly, who would you say on the board best represents the amatuer computer user. I can't think of any.
Again, we swing from QF retirement village to amatuers?!.
. .Charlie again;
[quote] Well meaning and ill informed amateurs, especially when led by people with the sort of attitudes we have seen here from AOPA big wigs, can and do cause more havok to our industry than a few bods bitching about the competition (which I would assume happens in IT, and most other industries as well). <hr></blockquote>
Who would be the well meaning and ill informed?! myself and AW or the committee?
Charlie again.. [quote]Most of us GA operators are too busy running our businesses to get involved in "tearing the industry apart <hr></blockquote>
Bingo. Excellent attitude to have. . .I commend you on seeing the trees and not the forest.
Gaunty,
Again, nice attitude, I guess you have money.. .I agree, if you can't afford something, dont whinge, whine or complain, get on with life. But have you paid for any flying training lately? I think someone should check out the prices of these materials that we need, and maybe check to see if we need them. . . [quote]I say again, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it, it's not the owners, the Ministers, the regulators, the manufacturers, the local airport owner or Uncle Tom Cobley and all's fault. <hr></blockquote>
Tell me then, who is pricing aviation these days?
. .Creampuff
[quote] . .Dogimed: Sit boy! Siiiiiiit. Stay. Now pay attention: I think my proposal’s an excellent one. That’s why I proposed it. But that’s not the point. I am waiting to see if I can get unanimous support. So far, it’s just you and me.
<hr></blockquote>
Where else have you proposed this? and who are you planning on contacting for the support?, theres about 40,000 pilots out there, and thats a lot of calls to get support from. Just you and me, not a bad start, so lets keep the ball rolling.
. .To practically everyone,. .Why on earth tear down someone like Aussie Pilot in regards to what he has to say, he truly believes that aviation, with some prodding from organisations, can become worthwhile again. . .Almost all of you have said something along the lines of "like your heart, right attitude, I want changes too", but it seems like its just too hard for a lot of you folk out there to make a change.
'Tis easier to criticise than to assist.
Forgive me if this message is all over the place, been playing with all the buttons below.
Night.
. .Dog is going off to sit. <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Dogimed ]</p>
Capcom,
as stated by you by AOPA's rep. "
Your principle representative had this to say:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------. . AOPA Aust . .Just another number . .Member # 48707 posted 06 February 2002 23:53 . .For those who do not wish to read the AOPA postion as detailed in the magazine, that is fine by me, but I do not intend to repeat it here.
. .--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" . .My answer to that?!. .What a D%^khead.
Charlie Foxtrot Indea. . [quote] Sounds great, good on you; but excuse me, how seriously would you take it if a flying instructor like me, who had a home PC that they understood just enough to send emails and get a regular dose of Pprune, started proposing changes that would affect your IT business?!
<hr></blockquote>
Charlie, firstly, even though I have no company, I would listen. Secondly, who would you say on the board best represents the amatuer computer user. I can't think of any.
Again, we swing from QF retirement village to amatuers?!.
. .Charlie again;
[quote] Well meaning and ill informed amateurs, especially when led by people with the sort of attitudes we have seen here from AOPA big wigs, can and do cause more havok to our industry than a few bods bitching about the competition (which I would assume happens in IT, and most other industries as well). <hr></blockquote>
Who would be the well meaning and ill informed?! myself and AW or the committee?
Charlie again.. [quote]Most of us GA operators are too busy running our businesses to get involved in "tearing the industry apart <hr></blockquote>
Bingo. Excellent attitude to have. . .I commend you on seeing the trees and not the forest.
Gaunty,
Again, nice attitude, I guess you have money.. .I agree, if you can't afford something, dont whinge, whine or complain, get on with life. But have you paid for any flying training lately? I think someone should check out the prices of these materials that we need, and maybe check to see if we need them. . . [quote]I say again, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it, it's not the owners, the Ministers, the regulators, the manufacturers, the local airport owner or Uncle Tom Cobley and all's fault. <hr></blockquote>
Tell me then, who is pricing aviation these days?
. .Creampuff
[quote] . .Dogimed: Sit boy! Siiiiiiit. Stay. Now pay attention: I think my proposal’s an excellent one. That’s why I proposed it. But that’s not the point. I am waiting to see if I can get unanimous support. So far, it’s just you and me.
<hr></blockquote>
Where else have you proposed this? and who are you planning on contacting for the support?, theres about 40,000 pilots out there, and thats a lot of calls to get support from. Just you and me, not a bad start, so lets keep the ball rolling.
. .To practically everyone,. .Why on earth tear down someone like Aussie Pilot in regards to what he has to say, he truly believes that aviation, with some prodding from organisations, can become worthwhile again. . .Almost all of you have said something along the lines of "like your heart, right attitude, I want changes too", but it seems like its just too hard for a lot of you folk out there to make a change.
'Tis easier to criticise than to assist.
Forgive me if this message is all over the place, been playing with all the buttons below.
Night.
. .Dog is going off to sit. <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Dogimed ]</p>
CFI: a point well made.
Once again, what does the first P in PPRUNE stand for? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Answers on the back of an envelope... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Once again, what does the first P in PPRUNE stand for? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Answers on the back of an envelope... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Here is one of AW's posts from AOPA site ...
By Andrew Wetzel (47088) on Friday, 22 February, 2002 - 08:02 am: Edit
. .Tony, you should have not edited out the positive feedback and copied it all in.
It appears we have people within our ranks that want to sabotage our industry!!!!! It is a shame!!!!!
. .Now then. "Our" industry??????? didn't you say YOU WORKED in IT? . .It is NOT YOUR industry, until you EARN a living from aviation. As such read what CFI wrote!
Have a nice day.. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
By Andrew Wetzel (47088) on Friday, 22 February, 2002 - 08:02 am: Edit
. .Tony, you should have not edited out the positive feedback and copied it all in.
It appears we have people within our ranks that want to sabotage our industry!!!!! It is a shame!!!!!
. .Now then. "Our" industry??????? didn't you say YOU WORKED in IT? . .It is NOT YOUR industry, until you EARN a living from aviation. As such read what CFI wrote!
Have a nice day.. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: middleofthehighway
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Jeeeeezuz..
. .You rock Icarus2001.
Can we be friends.
Brings to mind an old joke I heard years ago.
"What is the difference between God and a Pilot?"
"God doesn't think he can fly a plane."
I can't wait to become someone of your high stature and forget about everything. Once I get there I'll certainly s$%t on everything that got me there in the first place. . .We'll make great buddies.
Dog
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Dogimed ]</p>
. .You rock Icarus2001.
Can we be friends.
Brings to mind an old joke I heard years ago.
"What is the difference between God and a Pilot?"
"God doesn't think he can fly a plane."
I can't wait to become someone of your high stature and forget about everything. Once I get there I'll certainly s$%t on everything that got me there in the first place. . .We'll make great buddies.
Dog
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Dogimed ]</p>
Sure Dogimed.
Great joke BTW. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I think you have missed the point, any point. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
If I hire a car occasionally does that mean I would have valid input in to the running of hire car industry Australia wide? Or perhaps I should advise GM on design?
I know where I came from and one of the problems with that place WAS and IS well meaning amateurs who think they understand aviation because they hire a Cessna 172 every month, and sit at home with their airband scanner. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
But sure you can be my friend? Who do you fly for? <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Icarus2001 ]</p>
Great joke BTW. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I think you have missed the point, any point. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
If I hire a car occasionally does that mean I would have valid input in to the running of hire car industry Australia wide? Or perhaps I should advise GM on design?
I know where I came from and one of the problems with that place WAS and IS well meaning amateurs who think they understand aviation because they hire a Cessna 172 every month, and sit at home with their airband scanner. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
But sure you can be my friend? Who do you fly for? <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Icarus2001 ]</p>
All,
What a wonderful thread, with almost all the reasons GA in Australia is languishing on display.
Folks, have a look across the Tasman, with about the population of Sydney, and there are almost as many active pilots and aircraft as the whole of Australia.
Blame it in the dollar, that's what I say.
Or is it something in the water??? Or the beer ???
In a small country with fewer reasons for GA, and a US/NZ $$ that is cruel, GA is really doing well (and stealing contract training and aircraft maintenance work from Australia).
Is there a message here somewhere???
As GA ace professionals, ( or geriatric/ retired/ unemployed aeroplane salespersons) many of you rip into the "Retired ( or semi- retired to the B767) QF Captains Club" at AOPA, after all, with backgrounds as GA pilots, and ex military, GA instructors, Charter/Airwork operators, Flying School CFI's, ex Regional pilots, ex ag aircraft owner/ operators, private aircraft owners over many years, and probably a few more things I don't know about or can't remember, but are probably relevant qualifications, what would these blokes know about GA.
And that is just the QF contingent, with their union and association activities going back over many, many years.
Have a look at another thread on pprune about pilots and eyesight, to see what DAME and former Vice President of AOPA, Dr. Arthur Pape and AOPA did for all pilots, not just weekend warriors.
His efforts, and that of AOPA Australia, and IAOPA, have benefited pilots worldwide.
Of all the alphabet soup organisations mentioned in this thread, which one stepped up to the plate in the Mobil fiasco, including a deal with Mobil, that provided at least some immediate financial relief to the most vulnerable in GA employment, the junior instructors. Where was the AAFI, GAPA, GAA then. Silent.
Back to the main point. As Bill Pike has often said, "We can all hang together, or we will hang separately".
We can lean a lot from the NZ turn around, but are we able??
Tootle pip!!
PS Gaunty, have a look around, there is a real big business in yacht hire, including all those who will never be owners, but who can at least derive some of the satisfaction, pleasure and achievement of sailing. There is just about every possible combination of ownership/partnership/time share/commercial hire deal that human ingenuity can devise. Particularly if there is a tax benefit for somebody----sound familiar??
To misquote another post: " The answer is out there--- but don't let that deter you"
What a wonderful thread, with almost all the reasons GA in Australia is languishing on display.
Folks, have a look across the Tasman, with about the population of Sydney, and there are almost as many active pilots and aircraft as the whole of Australia.
Blame it in the dollar, that's what I say.
Or is it something in the water??? Or the beer ???
In a small country with fewer reasons for GA, and a US/NZ $$ that is cruel, GA is really doing well (and stealing contract training and aircraft maintenance work from Australia).
Is there a message here somewhere???
As GA ace professionals, ( or geriatric/ retired/ unemployed aeroplane salespersons) many of you rip into the "Retired ( or semi- retired to the B767) QF Captains Club" at AOPA, after all, with backgrounds as GA pilots, and ex military, GA instructors, Charter/Airwork operators, Flying School CFI's, ex Regional pilots, ex ag aircraft owner/ operators, private aircraft owners over many years, and probably a few more things I don't know about or can't remember, but are probably relevant qualifications, what would these blokes know about GA.
And that is just the QF contingent, with their union and association activities going back over many, many years.
Have a look at another thread on pprune about pilots and eyesight, to see what DAME and former Vice President of AOPA, Dr. Arthur Pape and AOPA did for all pilots, not just weekend warriors.
His efforts, and that of AOPA Australia, and IAOPA, have benefited pilots worldwide.
Of all the alphabet soup organisations mentioned in this thread, which one stepped up to the plate in the Mobil fiasco, including a deal with Mobil, that provided at least some immediate financial relief to the most vulnerable in GA employment, the junior instructors. Where was the AAFI, GAPA, GAA then. Silent.
Back to the main point. As Bill Pike has often said, "We can all hang together, or we will hang separately".
We can lean a lot from the NZ turn around, but are we able??
Tootle pip!!
PS Gaunty, have a look around, there is a real big business in yacht hire, including all those who will never be owners, but who can at least derive some of the satisfaction, pleasure and achievement of sailing. There is just about every possible combination of ownership/partnership/time share/commercial hire deal that human ingenuity can devise. Particularly if there is a tax benefit for somebody----sound familiar??
To misquote another post: " The answer is out there--- but don't let that deter you"
Moderator
I am sure many of us applaud the work done by Dr. Pape. . .I wonder would he still have done this work if he hadn't been the VP of AOPA, and I would suspect the answer is "yes" (your comments are welcome,Dr Pape) So let's give credit where it is due...to Dr. Pape.
AOPA folks, if you want everyone to agree with you go back to your own sandpit with my blessing. . .You are unlikely to get the last word or "convert" us "unbelievers" here.
Have a nice day.
AOPA folks, if you want everyone to agree with you go back to your own sandpit with my blessing. . .You are unlikely to get the last word or "convert" us "unbelievers" here.
Have a nice day.
CFI,. .Read the history. It's all public.It's all on pprune. Just on a slightly more rational thread than Dunder and Dogzone.. .No matter how hard Dr.Pape worked, without an organisation behind him in Court, and later, without IAOPA behind him to officially attend the ICAO Warsaw Conference on vision standards, do you really believed his persistance and hard work would have payed off for all of us.. .The expression "Get real" does come to mind.. .Tootle pip !!