Forum security...freedom of speech!
 

:ok:

Hi folks,

For those that don't know.....when posting on forums....especially in the light of recent 'legal' issues....one is best to use what is called a VPN or Proxy server.

I use a UK one called VPNUK. This is so that I can retain true 'freedom of speech' and not be traceable by Internet IP address.

Somewhat a sad fact that one has to use this method as a paid subscription for about UK£6 per month, however, one's online security...to me is paramount.

There are various providers out there...I am not linked with the company above. Rather, just sharing some basic and good security about posting on forums on the internet and 'anonymity'.

A good proxy/VPN website such as above should help explain the technicalities.

Will be interesting to see if the PPRune MODS/owner accept this post...perhaps not.

Very much sent in good faith and with one's security online and freedom of speech intended.

Bond'll do :ok:

I fail to see why you would demand "Freedom of Speech" here. This is a privately held and operated website. As such you and I are here at the invitation of the owner. Whether or not your content is allowed or not is at the discretion of the owners.

That is my pov. I consider myself a guest who can be asked to stay or leave at the whim of the ones who ay the freight. I enjoy it here, but try to remain polite and deferential. Guess what? I have never been asked to move along. Well, once, but not permanently, so I started right up and the "bouncer" had moved along.

:ok:

The legal facts are diverse in the UK.....
 

In reply, the legal facts are diverse in the UK currently regarding English/Welsh/N.I./Scotland.

The facts are that PPrune whether or not it is a 'private' site may be legally accountable under various legal regimens to provide the 'posters/contributors' information including the internet/I.P. address....FACT!

My post was to offer a solution to that anomaly by providing the above paid-for solution to make sure that one's I.P. address is 'anonymous'.

That effectively means that one can freely post what one wants on any forum worldwide without fear of a supposedly 'private' forum hoster or poster being legally 'sued'.

End of story and legal global current fact!

:ugh:

One further 'protectionist' Codicil in my post above.....
 

My Post above also helps protect 'PPRune.org' from liability in that they can gladly, if legally asked by any court to provide my internet details.....

They can do so...and even moment by moment my I.P. address changes from, e.g. Egypt to Sri Lanka to goodness knows where.

One is untraceable, and even the U.K. Government and all IT professionals that I know suggest this...this is about to be 2013....and one needs to keep ahead of the game for true 'freedom-of-speech'.

End of lecture.....just FACT....either accept it or dig one's head in the sand and possibly regret some sound and current legal/internet advise.

:ugh::ok:

Remember: You're not truly paranoid if they really ARE all out to get you!:eek:

Bond'll Do

You have not addressed my post. In the least. My point is that you cannot expect to post whatever you like, the website can block you with a keystroke.

I do not address anonymity, or insulation, or anything else. Only Freedom.

Do you, erm, see that?

In re: "codicil", suggest a visit to a dictionary.

Or to be specific the VPN negates one of the easy ways to simplify the task of identifying an individual anonymous poster by name. Other means of doing so are not eliminated by making the IP address unavailable. However since that's apparently the means by which one poster on this board was harassed by a certain well known corporate entity, using a VPN will require them work a little harder to harass you!

It's also worth pointing out that message boards like this one are still subject to whatever legal means may be employed by any entity with a grievance related to any content posted herein. Any decisions made regarding site policy or legal defense strategy will of course be made by the commercial entity which owns the site.

Like many visitors to this and other web message boards, I would like to see message contributors as being free to make any statement they wish as long as it is not unlawful, untruthful or otherwise malevolent in nature. Of course that's just my perspective and others may disagree.

Finally it's my observation that "freedom of speech" is one of the most often misunderstood and misused phrases in the English language. As a contributor to this or any web message board my "freedom of speech" is really nothing more than the privilege of being allowed by the owner to post messages on this site in accordance with their rules. If I feel unreasonably restrained from "speaking" I may take the matter up with them or take my ball and go home. Or even discuss it with other contributors as we are here. (for now!)

Don't look for this or any other "for profit" site whose income is derived by online advertising income to cost themselves money in the name of the elusive right to "freedom of speech" either. Get a VPN if you feel it protects you or just take your chances. My own cost/benefit analysis reveals a rather low risk and so relatively little benefit would accrue. But that's just MY opinion.

Bond'll Do
May I suggest you Google "Norwich Pharmacal orders". You may find it useful.

Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not after you.

Lyman...suggest you look at the legal definition of 'codicil' and perhaps not Wiki...
 

Perhaps seek the legal definition and original meaning of 'codicil', Sir...rather than something posted on a Wiki.....LOL :zzz:

4468
 

Note no reply to my 'concessions' argument.....mhmhmhmhm

Just here for a 'mickey take' on this forum perhaps, are you? LOL:sad:

Hello Nick....
 

I don't need to look at Norwich Pharmacal Orders, I have a very good legal system where I live which is not covered by internet supposed statements or Wikis on these matters to which you purport.

Thank you, nevertheless, for your suggestion....it may be helpful to some....

Keep thinking that Ding Dong.....a fellow name Bin Laden thought that too!

If you piss someone off bad enough....you can be found.

Ever read up on what the NSA can do.....if they decide to get on your case?

I think pprune should buy one of these £6 month proxys.

Either it does that, or we all bugger orff.

After all what is Pprune without its posters?

NOTHING

Anonymity is somewhat important, but at the same time each poster should be responsible.
Don't say anything you wouldn't say in public, don't say anything you wouldn't assume personaly, proxy or not.
Sometimes people uses JB as a gym: to show they anger they have against somebody/some country/some culture/race (even gypsies!) or other instead of discussing like civilized people.
Some of my friends/or simply people I know (aviation world is small for an expat who has travelled) from different countries are on pprune (but they only read JB, they don't really post here, JB) and they know who I am.
Always think you are in a public area, it is okay to defend what you believe in, but always be civilized.
Total anonymity doesn't exist, even on internet. An IP address is not the only way to identify you. The possibility to identify you shouldn't be an issue, otherwise it would mean what you write here is not something you can assume in front of the world.

In some countries VPN itself can be an issue.

In Thailand, the Computer Crimes Act B.E. 2550 (2007) does not ban its use as such but under certain parts of the Act it is indirectly referred to and if it is used to get around government restricted sites (and any site can be blocked for undisclosed reasons) or for “illegal activities” which is typically porn or anti monarchy, then VPN is illegal in that the activity that it is being used for is illegal although the use of the technology is not.
Better not to use it here other than for Corporate work related WANs etc..

I am not an internet expert, but looking at this simplistically I fail to see how using a VPN on subscription can protect the user from being identified. Clearly it adds an extra layer of obfuscation but the very fact that you are subscribing means they have your details, and when you use them they have your IP address, so presumably against a court order they could see who was going through them to a particular site at a given time.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not paranoid and have nothing to hide but I work on the basis that nothing on the WWW is totally anonymous if someone is prepared to invest the resources to track you.

Edit :
Coincidentally, I just came across this article :
WTF: The internet's secretive hangouts | News | Sci-tech | Mail & Guardian

I don't think I did anything wrong yet my PPRuNe account and all my posts from 15 years ago were deleted :sad:.

Suggest you read the announcement at the top of the page....but I'll put it here again for you.

Notice regarding post responsibility and anonymity
NOTICE: You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Recent high-profile defamation events illustrate that there are ways in which third parties can force personal data, including contents of personal messages, to be released by bulletin board owners. Be careful - libelous/defamatory posts can and have landed members in legal hot water. PPRuNe will not guarantee your anonymity in such situations.

If you want "free speech" you are of course welcome to start your own forum and set your own rules!

as for free... whatever, a link to funny (if one's not affected, that is) bans:

2012: The Year in Bans | Photo Gallery - Yahoo! Shine

If a Bill before the Australian Parliament gets up, it will be illegal to offend anyone at all, including on a forum like this.

The test will be whether a persaon feels that they have been 'unfavourably treated'. This treatmewnt does not have to result in any measurable disadvantage - it is enough if the person feels 'offended'.

The onus is on the 'accused' to prove that their behaviour was not offensive.

s.19 Discrimination by unfavourable treatment

(1) A person (the first person) discriminates against another person if the first person treats, or proposes to treat, the other person unfavourably because the other person has a particular protected attribute, or a particular combination of 2 or more protected attributes.

To avoid doubt, unfavourable treatment of the other person includes (but is not limited to) the following: (a) harassing the other person; (b) other conduct that offends, insults or intimidates the other person.

There is a list of over 20 separate 'protected attributes' about which it will be illegal to be offensive, including race, gender, employment, social origin, education, appearance, health and medical issues, religion, political opinion etc etc.

It's also possible for a person to be 'offended' if statements are made about their 'associates', ie members of their family.

Punishment will be fines, restraint orders, and compulsory attendance at 'retraining courses'.

As the promoter of the bill, Attorney-General Nicola Roxon says: "The Bill will help everyone understand what behaviour is expected."

Roxon is on a roll, having recently beaten Big Tobacco by having cigarette packets sold in Australia painted black with dire health warnings on them.

She is also a fat-arsed crypto-fascist with little law and less politics whose idea of a good time is a quiet game of cribbage.

She is also .................................... with little law and less politics whose idea of a good time is a quiet game of cribbage.


I doubt it. Cribbage in the Royal Navy.... 15 - 2 that B:mad:d.

Just this past week in a cockpit conversation I was advised to obtain VPN services, not to protect my anonymity on any forum, but to prevent identity theft and access to my online transactions, such a banking and bill paying.

The way I understand it is that if you enter an account number and password into your computer in a wireless environment, it's possible for that information to be intercepted. VPN encrypts your entries so that if the data is intercepted it will be useless.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject.

AFAIK Ié never posted anything here that could cause me to worry about this, so see no need to cloak my identity.
Simple rule; don't post anything you wouldn't say face to face.

I have never equated Freedom of Speech with Anonymity. I think those that do have got it wrong. Why would you want to say something that you cannot be identified with? Isn't that basic hypocracy/hypocrisy - whatever, you know what I mean. Geez, if people can't take you at your word what sort of a person are you?

RJM, and with a single stroke there goes the internet in Aus.

Fascism, thinly veined indeed.

Sorry, Lon, plenty of people been in trouble recently for using words face-to-face that the other person found "insulting".

AND VPNs or proxy servers ain't much help - most fora nowadays require an email address to send you a verification link when you sign up. You would need to find an untraceable email address (i.e. that requires no verification to sign up for) AND use a VPN/proxy every time you accessed that email address.

Cheers
UFO

What exactly is the legal position regarding proxy servers etc? Are the server owners technically responsible in legal terms if their server is used by someone else?

Yes, the owners (or rather the person who's name is on the internet feed) is responsible. They'll knock on your door, serve you a warrant, interview you under caution, take your servers and do a forensic analysis on the logs etc. If you are not fortunate enough to live in a "Western" country, your treatment may well be substantially worse.

And to the OP, as SASless said.... if you piss someone off enough, they'll put enough resources into hunting you down. So to think a proxy, onion routing, or some other service is going to protect you, you are much mistaken.

Which is why .ru and similar domains are favourite.

What a wonderful piece of proposed law this will become... It reminds me of "Section 40 of the UK Army Act" of some 60 odd years ago.

"Conduct Prejudicial to Good Order and Military Discipline" to which would be added those of "Regicide", "Desertion, to the Enemy" having "Dirty Boots on Parade" and many more.

It appears to cover everything. It might keep the Legal profession expanded and occupied for many years.

This IS PROGRESS

How far back in time can this apply, retrospectively ? ( Someone used a rude word when I was there, I think it was a year ago.)
Is it world wide in application ? ( Am I liable to extradition for re-education?)
Do other languages apply, too? (I was called "Baaturi " in Kano, which may be racist...)

LT

When Charlie Foxtrot speaks you better believe him, the top ten most dangerous species in Aus quake at the merest whisper of his handle. :eek:

I get your point. I've had a couple of bans in the past for something innocuous, however I believe that I had not stated anything that would have ended up in a court of law.

I've seen a couple of flame wars, one between a number of posters here on PPRune, on another forum which lead to that becoming a shadow of itself and all posts being deleted. All manner of threats were being exchanged from legal action to a bit of wetwork. Ended up with a change of managers and a threat to close it down completely if we didn't play nice.
Come to think of it, isn't that what happened to Agony Aunt?

Was bin laden not identified by a informant who was paid huge amounts of cash rather than any internet connection or mobile phone signals.
I for one am a supporter of free speech, but not at any cost. I went on the suggested web site to check it out and i guess you could use it for more sinister applications than covering ones back on an internet forum.

BANDIT12,

Obviously we'll never be entirely sure about the intricacies of the BL case, so perhaps a better example than the one given by SASLess would be the fact the Police regularly manage to hunt down pedophiles on chat rooms and forums who no doubt go to great lengths to attempt to hide their trail.

Another example would be members of "Anonymous" who carried out various high-profile mischievous internet acts. So they were evidently quite technically competent and did their best to hide their trail, however in the end they eventually pissed off the FBI enough to put some of their manpower who managed to track down some of the high-level culprits which then lead them to the rest of the gang after some questioning.

Still another example of police investigative powers is the dumb broad in NYC who claimed she waq an aunt of a dead child in Sandy Hook, looking for burrial money. Then claiming it wasn't her on the internet after all. That may work between users on the internet but not those with elaborate investigative powers like the FBI.

That may be the case when it comes to criminal matters, but as it is likely only civil matters that will arise from posts here, adding a layer or two between you and the forum may be all that is needed to defeat any potential court orders. Particularly if those layers are placed in countries that are known to make a point out of ignoring anything coming from "the west".

you're not arguing about freedom of speech here

what you are arguing about is the freedom to breach socially accepted norms of behaviour without retribution.
In effect, the freedom to insult someone without getting a punch in the face.

If you want to use TOR or an anonymous VPN, go on, do it. See how far it gets you. Just be aware that traps can be laid quite easily: a link in a PM, a webbug in a private message........
And of course even if you manage to avoid these catches, don't forget that anonymous VPNs usually hold records and can be hacked......or subject to court action
Or the minute you hook into a filesharing program, then TOR or the VPN is bypassed
Or that e-mail address you used when you set up the PPRUNE (or whatever) account........did you make sure you were using TOR when you created that? Have you used TOR every time you logged into it? What name / address did you give when you created it? Did you use the same password as on your other e-mail accounts (the authorities can scan e-mail accounts to find those with the same password and so link users.......)

If you think you're anonymous, then you are a fool.
If you ever think you are safe from interception on the internet, then you are an idiot

For once, to my astonishment, I find myself agreeing with Milo, although I probably wouldn't have worded it quite so heavy-handedly. In the 21st century, the only way you'll ever be anonymous is to eschew all electronic means of communication and live somewhere where google earth can't see you.

Erm.... isn't that what Mr Bin-Laden thought ?