Plotter problems
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Plotter problems
I have a Roland plotter I used for drafting plans etc. Since our last renovation was a few years ago and we have moved twice since then it got put to one side. It runs only from parallel and serial ports. I had a laptop that had those and ran Windows 8.1 (Black sheep of windows family.) Before that windows 7 and previous windows ran it fine. When my Windows 8.1 computer died I could only get laptops with USB ports..
Despite buying a multiplicity of adapters, USB to both Parallel and Serial, I have never managed to get the plotter working with current laptops.
I have scoured the internet and the forum for my drafting program without result. Anyone got any ideas?
Despite buying a multiplicity of adapters, USB to both Parallel and Serial, I have never managed to get the plotter working with current laptops.
I have scoured the internet and the forum for my drafting program without result. Anyone got any ideas?
Here are some random thoughts which may or may not be of use. I'll consider the serial option.
There are 2 or 3 pieces to this puzzle, the drafting software that sends the data to the com port, the usb-rs-232 converter and maybe the 9-pin to 25-pin cable if your plotter has a 25-pin connector.
I used to use HP plotters years ago so I'm assuming that the Roland either uses the HPGL (extension either .plt or .hgl) format or something similar.
Could you create a virtual serial port so that your drafting software could send its plot to a file to check that part is working OK?
Having such a file would be useful for testing the other bits by typing something like "copy testplot.plt com7:" at a command prompt (com port number can be checked in device manager)
In terms of the converter, make sure that the one you have has hardware flow control. Plotters are slow so if the laptop spews all of the data at the plotter in one continuous stream it won't be able to keep up.
It needs the RTS and CTS lines to regulate the flow. (there are other ways such as xon-xoff but hardware flow control was typical on the HP plotters)
You could check that the signal physically appears on the TX data line either with an oscilloscope or a second laptop with a serial port running a terminal program and connected with a null modem cable.
Don't under estimate the last part if its a 25-pin connector. The HP plotter we had was notoriosly picky.
Look at the replies here to get a suggestion of how it should be wired (I have not tested this, I only just found it in a search)
https://forum.arduino.cc/t/how-to-co...arduino/358142
Good luck, I always found it mesmorising to watch and listen to a plottor make an image appear.
There are 2 or 3 pieces to this puzzle, the drafting software that sends the data to the com port, the usb-rs-232 converter and maybe the 9-pin to 25-pin cable if your plotter has a 25-pin connector.
I used to use HP plotters years ago so I'm assuming that the Roland either uses the HPGL (extension either .plt or .hgl) format or something similar.
Could you create a virtual serial port so that your drafting software could send its plot to a file to check that part is working OK?
Having such a file would be useful for testing the other bits by typing something like "copy testplot.plt com7:" at a command prompt (com port number can be checked in device manager)
In terms of the converter, make sure that the one you have has hardware flow control. Plotters are slow so if the laptop spews all of the data at the plotter in one continuous stream it won't be able to keep up.
It needs the RTS and CTS lines to regulate the flow. (there are other ways such as xon-xoff but hardware flow control was typical on the HP plotters)
You could check that the signal physically appears on the TX data line either with an oscilloscope or a second laptop with a serial port running a terminal program and connected with a null modem cable.
Don't under estimate the last part if its a 25-pin connector. The HP plotter we had was notoriosly picky.
Look at the replies here to get a suggestion of how it should be wired (I have not tested this, I only just found it in a search)
https://forum.arduino.cc/t/how-to-co...arduino/358142
Good luck, I always found it mesmorising to watch and listen to a plottor make an image appear.
I realise this is not the tech forum but since we are discussing tech 'stuff.'
I have a Roland plotter I used for drafting plans etc. Since our last renovation was a few years ago and we have moved twice since then it got put to one side. It runs only from parallel and serial ports. I had a laptop that had those and ran Windows 8.1 (Black sheep of windows family.) Before that windows 7 and previous windows ran it fine. When my Windows 8.1 computer died I could only get laptops with USB ports..
Despite buying a multiplicity of adapters, USB to both Parallel and Serial, I have never managed to get the plotter working with current laptops.
I have scoured the internet and the forum for my drafting program without result. Anyone got any ideas?
I have a Roland plotter I used for drafting plans etc. Since our last renovation was a few years ago and we have moved twice since then it got put to one side. It runs only from parallel and serial ports. I had a laptop that had those and ran Windows 8.1 (Black sheep of windows family.) Before that windows 7 and previous windows ran it fine. When my Windows 8.1 computer died I could only get laptops with USB ports..
Despite buying a multiplicity of adapters, USB to both Parallel and Serial, I have never managed to get the plotter working with current laptops.
I have scoured the internet and the forum for my drafting program without result. Anyone got any ideas?
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Unfortunately I am not good with electronics. Fix anything physical, yes. Electronics mostly gobbledy goof.
The serial port instructions in the manual are complicated as the gates of hell. Parallel has only one choice to make so I always ran it as parallel. The first problem with parallel was that my new laptops did not appear to recognise the adapter and if they did they still did not offer "Parallel port" as an option so the software could not send a signal to the adapter.
Apparently most of the adapters don't have a time delay so the plotter is overwhelmed by the speed of the download.
I tried the technical dept at Roland but they were vague on old plotters and mostly only could help with music equipment!
My software (Visual Cadd V) seemed to have built in driver originally. Just load it and click "Plot." I am beginning to think that the only way to get this to work is to buy an old desk top with a parallel port and Windows 7, install my drafting program and transfer files on a USB stick! I don't really want to spend that kind of money unless I'm sure it will work!
The serial port instructions in the manual are complicated as the gates of hell. Parallel has only one choice to make so I always ran it as parallel. The first problem with parallel was that my new laptops did not appear to recognise the adapter and if they did they still did not offer "Parallel port" as an option so the software could not send a signal to the adapter.
Apparently most of the adapters don't have a time delay so the plotter is overwhelmed by the speed of the download.
I tried the technical dept at Roland but they were vague on old plotters and mostly only could help with music equipment!
My software (Visual Cadd V) seemed to have built in driver originally. Just load it and click "Plot." I am beginning to think that the only way to get this to work is to buy an old desk top with a parallel port and Windows 7, install my drafting program and transfer files on a USB stick! I don't really want to spend that kind of money unless I'm sure it will work!
Years ago, software applications could have direct access to the hardware interrupts and could access the pins of the parallel port directly. As time went by, things became more layered and permissions orientated. If your application does not work with the driver for your usb-parallel adapter, it may be impossible to solve without a custom driver. Serial via USB tends to have a lot more support these days as there are still plenty of sensors out there using RS-232. I also think that its less likely that there is any kind of custom signalling going on as compared to direct access to all of the pins of the parallel port. The most common settings for a serial port were 9600Baud, 8 data bits, no parity and 1 stop bit. Your plotter may have small dip switches to set this but if it is fixed, you need to set the laptop settings to whatever the plotter is using.
Parallel ports don't have a speed - they toggle status pins one byte at a time.
The problem might be that the software is looking for an LPT: port rather than the emulated PRT: port.
Capacitor replacement could be done by most any computer repair shop and they would likely be able to test the serial and parallel interfaces on the plotter first to be sure.
Roland is supposedly compatible with HPGL; this wasn't completely standardized until HPGL/2 was released with different devices obeying various subsets of HPGL However I expect PUPD, et al will indicate the commands are being received.
Direct access to LPT: was required for time-sensitive operations, such as for CNC machining; keeping ahead of a pen plotter would not require that level of communication.
The problem might be that the software is looking for an LPT: port rather than the emulated PRT: port.
Capacitor replacement could be done by most any computer repair shop and they would likely be able to test the serial and parallel interfaces on the plotter first to be sure.
Roland is supposedly compatible with HPGL; this wasn't completely standardized until HPGL/2 was released with different devices obeying various subsets of HPGL However I expect PUPD, et al will indicate the commands are being received.
Direct access to LPT: was required for time-sensitive operations, such as for CNC machining; keeping ahead of a pen plotter would not require that level of communication.
Unfortunately I am not good with electronics. Fix anything physical, yes. Electronics mostly gobbledy goof.
The serial port instructions in the manual are complicated as the gates of hell. Parallel has only one choice to make so I always ran it as parallel. The first problem with parallel was that my new laptops did not appear to recognise the adapter and if they did they still did not offer "Parallel port" as an option so the software could not send a signal to the adapter.
Apparently most of the adapters don't have a time delay so the plotter is overwhelmed by the speed of the download.
I tried the technical dept at Roland but they were vague on old plotters and mostly only could help with music equipment!
My software (Visual Cadd V) seemed to have built in driver originally. Just load it and click "Plot." I am beginning to think that the only way to get this to work is to buy an old desk top with a parallel port and Windows 7, install my drafting program and transfer files on a USB stick! I don't really want to spend that kind of money unless I'm sure it will work!
The serial port instructions in the manual are complicated as the gates of hell. Parallel has only one choice to make so I always ran it as parallel. The first problem with parallel was that my new laptops did not appear to recognise the adapter and if they did they still did not offer "Parallel port" as an option so the software could not send a signal to the adapter.
Apparently most of the adapters don't have a time delay so the plotter is overwhelmed by the speed of the download.
I tried the technical dept at Roland but they were vague on old plotters and mostly only could help with music equipment!
My software (Visual Cadd V) seemed to have built in driver originally. Just load it and click "Plot." I am beginning to think that the only way to get this to work is to buy an old desk top with a parallel port and Windows 7, install my drafting program and transfer files on a USB stick! I don't really want to spend that kind of money unless I'm sure it will work!
You haven't said what model Roland plotter you have, and whether it can be plotted to by other software that is compatible with later versions of Windows. From you description, it may be it isn't supported by later versions of Windows (obsolescence due to drivers not being released for newer versions of Windows by the vendor) rather than it has any hardware faults such as faulty capacitors. There are convoluted solutions for this.
Both parallel and serial ports have always had handshaking (by design) so that you cannot overwhelm your printer with 'fast' data. It spools it out at the fastest rate the printer/plotter/device gulps it in.
You may be able to print to a PDF file with your older version of VisualCADD and then print the PDF file to the plotter using Adobe Acrobat (free) as a workaround. See page 166 in the latest user manual downloadable from the TriTools website at https://www.visualcadd.net/download/v9_user_guide.pdf.
Buying a separate computer just to run your obsolete version of a CAD program seems like a unwise purchase decision. Alternates are to update your CAD software, think about a virtual machine (using free VM software) that will support your old plotter and device drivers as other far cheaper options.
Advise the model plotter you have, what USB adapter you have tried, and what the last drivers you have been able to find for them both and we can go from there.
Years ago, software applications could have direct access to the hardware interrupts and could access the pins of the parallel port directly. As time went by, things became more layered and permissions orientated. If your application does not work with the driver for your usb-parallel adapter, it may be impossible to solve without a custom driver. Serial via USB tends to have a lot more support these days as there are still plenty of sensors out there using RS-232. I also think that its less likely that there is any kind of custom signalling going on as compared to direct access to all of the pins of the parallel port. The most common settings for a serial port were 9600Baud, 8 data bits, no parity and 1 stop bit. Your plotter may have small dip switches to set this but if it is fixed, you need to set the laptop settings to whatever the plotter is using.
Parallel ports don't have that issue. They are a bidirectional 5 volt port with handshaking. Drivers are usually universal. I suspect the lack of plotter drivers by the manufacturer for an older model is the only issue here, and there are common software and hardware workarounds for that.
Last edited by Thirsty; 9th Apr 2023 at 14:07.
Bingo!
Page 168 of the current Visual CADD user manual ( https://www.visualcadd.net/download/v9_user_guide.pdf ) talks about older plotters such as yours and how to bypass Windows drivers to print direct to device. It also advises to check your settings on the plotter to make sure that your plotter is configured for hardware flow control.
Let us know the plotter model and we can look up the user guide for that and let you know what to change if it is still not working. It also talks about setting up a custom printer profile and what commands are needed to plot etc. Probably a bit too complex unless it is clearly documented in the Roland manual, or has been posted on the user forums where somebody else has solved this very problem.
I'm not sure if your previous Visual CADD configuration settings on your old computer were backed up. If so, it may prove useful to restore them to your new one, have a look at what they are, and take it from there. This may be your easiest solution.
Windows 8x? Run, fast! Windows 7 or 10 are stable and fairly reliable. Avoid Vista, 8, (or 11 for now until it goes through some more beta testing on real users in the real world and has the bugs ironed out)
Page 168 of the current Visual CADD user manual ( https://www.visualcadd.net/download/v9_user_guide.pdf ) talks about older plotters such as yours and how to bypass Windows drivers to print direct to device. It also advises to check your settings on the plotter to make sure that your plotter is configured for hardware flow control.
Let us know the plotter model and we can look up the user guide for that and let you know what to change if it is still not working. It also talks about setting up a custom printer profile and what commands are needed to plot etc. Probably a bit too complex unless it is clearly documented in the Roland manual, or has been posted on the user forums where somebody else has solved this very problem.
I'm not sure if your previous Visual CADD configuration settings on your old computer were backed up. If so, it may prove useful to restore them to your new one, have a look at what they are, and take it from there. This may be your easiest solution.
Windows 8x? Run, fast! Windows 7 or 10 are stable and fairly reliable. Avoid Vista, 8, (or 11 for now until it goes through some more beta testing on real users in the real world and has the bugs ironed out)
Last edited by Thirsty; 9th Apr 2023 at 14:09.
I agree that parallel port would likely be the simplest route. Serial coms has enough difficulties that you could spend your entire life on it.
I have used a USB-> Serial adapter quite a bit with the management of routers and they seem to work well. One issue is that they use weird serial port IDs. I just plugged one in and it has come up on Com15. Use a different USB port and I get a different port ID (Com17). ?You should be able to check the port ID with
Control Panel->Device Manager->Ports
Quite likely that a USB -> parallel port adapter does something similar. Check in the same place.
If you do choose serial you will need to set up the port in the Device Manager by right clicking and choosing properties.
Make sure that the plotter is basically working. If it doesn't have a display it is likely to have a way of stimulating some output, test page, configuration dump? You could post the exact printer model and maybe someone could check?
You can possibly (I am not sure if this will work in windows without permission issues) copy a test file to the plotter from a command window. Ideas on doing that in the link.
https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/bpp02546
I have used a USB-> Serial adapter quite a bit with the management of routers and they seem to work well. One issue is that they use weird serial port IDs. I just plugged one in and it has come up on Com15. Use a different USB port and I get a different port ID (Com17). ?You should be able to check the port ID with
Control Panel->Device Manager->Ports
Quite likely that a USB -> parallel port adapter does something similar. Check in the same place.
If you do choose serial you will need to set up the port in the Device Manager by right clicking and choosing properties.
Make sure that the plotter is basically working. If it doesn't have a display it is likely to have a way of stimulating some output, test page, configuration dump? You could post the exact printer model and maybe someone could check?
You can possibly (I am not sure if this will work in windows without permission issues) copy a test file to the plotter from a command window. Ideas on doing that in the link.
https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/bpp02546
RS-232 standard is -15V to +15V with a ones bit indicated between -5V and -15V and a zero bit indicated from +5V to +15V. Some limited it to +/-12V while others dropped it to the ragged edge of +/-5V with makers accepting as low as +/-3V.
See https://www.analog.com/en/technical-...nications.html
See https://www.analog.com/en/technical-...nications.html
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Firstly, thank you so much for your interest and help.
As I understand it Visual Cadd itself puts out a standard plotter language control. As I mentioned I never had to install drivers on any of the computers to run the plotter. It appears that’s the same for the current version, the manual says:
Quote
Using Direct Plotting
If you have an older vector output device such as a pen plotter, you can use Visual CADD™'s direct
plotting features to enhance control over the device. By using direct plot, you bypass the Windows print
drivers and send information directly to the plotter. Direct plot allows you to use plotters that do not have a Windows driver.
Unquote
My plotter is a Roland GRX300-AD.
It does have a self test program inbuilt and it runs it just fine.
I started computer drafting back late 1970’s with Pink software in London, Went on to Generic Cadd and then when we came to Canada found Visual Cadd. I used it for the odd house renovation and designing furniture. Beyond the simple work I was doing I’m afraid I wasn’t interested in the technical aspects. As in writing with a pen I got really frustrated with having to redraw every time I wanted to modify something. I have the manual for the plotter but the serial port settings blow my simple mind so I have always used the parallel port.
I am on the Visual Cadd forum but my query went unanswered as most of the people on there are professional drafters/designers, use up to date plotters and are way up the tech scale from me!
The USB/parallel port adapter I tried is “Ugreen.” The computer says it recognizes the adapter but it won’t show a parallel port for outputs, only USBs. The visual Cadd plotting function doesn’t work without a LPT1 or LPT2 to send to.
The print functions work just fine but of course my printer is only 8x10. I too love watching the plotter put out a plan!
As I understand it Visual Cadd itself puts out a standard plotter language control. As I mentioned I never had to install drivers on any of the computers to run the plotter. It appears that’s the same for the current version, the manual says:
Quote
Using Direct Plotting
If you have an older vector output device such as a pen plotter, you can use Visual CADD™'s direct
plotting features to enhance control over the device. By using direct plot, you bypass the Windows print
drivers and send information directly to the plotter. Direct plot allows you to use plotters that do not have a Windows driver.
Unquote
My plotter is a Roland GRX300-AD.
It does have a self test program inbuilt and it runs it just fine.
I started computer drafting back late 1970’s with Pink software in London, Went on to Generic Cadd and then when we came to Canada found Visual Cadd. I used it for the odd house renovation and designing furniture. Beyond the simple work I was doing I’m afraid I wasn’t interested in the technical aspects. As in writing with a pen I got really frustrated with having to redraw every time I wanted to modify something. I have the manual for the plotter but the serial port settings blow my simple mind so I have always used the parallel port.
I am on the Visual Cadd forum but my query went unanswered as most of the people on there are professional drafters/designers, use up to date plotters and are way up the tech scale from me!
The USB/parallel port adapter I tried is “Ugreen.” The computer says it recognizes the adapter but it won’t show a parallel port for outputs, only USBs. The visual Cadd plotting function doesn’t work without a LPT1 or LPT2 to send to.
The print functions work just fine but of course my printer is only 8x10. I too love watching the plotter put out a plan!
You could create a raw printer device under windows like this, and then assign an LPT port to it as follows:
- Do a "right mouse" click on your printers name
- Choose "Properties" from the popup menu
- Click on the "Ports" tab at the top
- Write down the name of your USB port name
- Click on the "Enable Printer Pooling" checkbox
- Scroll through all of your listed ports and click on "LPT1" port.
- Click on "Apply" and "Ok".
If I was you I'd concentrate on using a usb to serial route. Problems you're likely to have are:
- the usb serial device appears as COM 15 but your software only allows for COM1 to COM4.
- a bad serial cable ( there are so many variants of serial cables out there that the chances of having one that doesn't work is very high.
Does your printer have a 15-pin serial connector, or a 9-pin one?
I think that is a 'feature' of parallel port emulators in Windows.
You could create a raw printer device under windows like this, and then assign an LPT port to it as follows:
If I was you I'd concentrate on using a usb to serial route. Problems you're likely to have are:
Does your printer have a 15-pin serial connector, or a 9-pin one?
You could create a raw printer device under windows like this, and then assign an LPT port to it as follows:
- Do a "right mouse" click on your printers name
- Choose "Properties" from the popup menu
- Click on the "Ports" tab at the top
- Write down the name of your USB port name
- Click on the "Enable Printer Pooling" checkbox
- Scroll through all of your listed ports and click on "LPT1" port.
- Click on "Apply" and "Ok".
If I was you I'd concentrate on using a usb to serial route. Problems you're likely to have are:
- the usb serial device appears as COM 15 but your software only allows for COM1 to COM4.
- a bad serial cable ( there are so many variants of serial cables out there that the chances of having one that doesn't work is very high.
Does your printer have a 15-pin serial connector, or a 9-pin one?
Lets have a peek to see what Windows USB plug-and-pray (
) is doing: First plug in the USB adapter to your computer and the plotter. Make sure the plotter is powered up only after Windows is fully up and running. Wait two minutes after the plotter has finished its power up sequence and the pens are stopped, so it has time to decide if it installs device drivers. Bring up device manager in Windows control panel, and select show hidden devices from the menu. See what is showing there for LPT and PRN and USB ports and printer devices - list them all in your response (or expand and post a screen shot). Please advise if any devices have a yellow mark beside them, and if so, which. This yellow mark is important for troubleshooting.I'm glad you have confirmed the plotter is functional from a hardware point of view. No rogue capacitor problems then. Good.
This page https://www.rolanddga.com/support/pr...-vinyl-cutter? and https://www.rolanddga.com/support/pr...dapter-enduser seems to be similar to your plotter. Some of the information may be relevant to your device also. The drivers may also work at a pinch - leave that for now as your solution may be simpler.
Looking at the associated user manual shows the serial cable wiring is somewhat non-standard, hence I understand your reluctance to move from parallel to serial. I agree. If it worked in the past, it should be able to work with the current hardware also. At least you don't have to worry about voltage levels with a parallel port - they are all 5volts and handshaking is part of the IEEE standard.
Oh yes, let us know which version of Windoze you are running all this one. 7, 8, 10, 11? Home, Enterprise, etc? 32 bit or 64 bit?
Last edited by Thirsty; 11th Apr 2023 at 19:14. Reason: Glad we are not doing this at FL440!!!
One other thing to consider is that printer ports could have a few different modes eg original, EPP or ECP.
Perhaps your Ugreen driver detects this automatically but if not, open up "Davice Manager", right-click on the Ugreen device (probably grouped under Ports), click properties and then have a hunt around in Settings or Details for the mode and set it to ECP if the option is available.
As mentioned earlier though, if the Ugreen device is not mapped to LPT1 or LPT2, then sorting that out is your first step.
Perhaps your Ugreen driver detects this automatically but if not, open up "Davice Manager", right-click on the Ugreen device (probably grouped under Ports), click properties and then have a hunt around in Settings or Details for the mode and set it to ECP if the option is available.
As mentioned earlier though, if the Ugreen device is not mapped to LPT1 or LPT2, then sorting that out is your first step.
"Good luck, I always found it mesmorising to watch and listen to a plottor make an image appear."
back in the '80's a number of us where summoned to the plotting room of a major oil company - (all aircon , white coats and gloves in those days). The biggest plotter was producing a map for one of our guys of part of an oil field. It had been running for hours and just grinding out blank paper. All of a sudden, with excruciating slowness, it started to fill in acres of black ink. After about 10 minutes someone leapt and screaming "kill the job" - he'd realised that instead of mapping the area at 1:25,000 it was doing it at 1:1.......... and the black was part of a single numerical character..............
back in the '80's a number of us where summoned to the plotting room of a major oil company - (all aircon , white coats and gloves in those days). The biggest plotter was producing a map for one of our guys of part of an oil field. It had been running for hours and just grinding out blank paper. All of a sudden, with excruciating slowness, it started to fill in acres of black ink. After about 10 minutes someone leapt and screaming "kill the job" - he'd realised that instead of mapping the area at 1:25,000 it was doing it at 1:1.......... and the black was part of a single numerical character..............
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I think they have stopped all support for these old plotters though. I can't even remember when I bought it, two houses ago or three!
We have been doing the family bit over Easter, five of six kids here all with family, first time for about five or six years so have been a bit preoccupied. Will get back on my problem in the next few days.
It's a while ago now, but you may have a point!
I think they have stopped all support for these old plotters though. I can't even remember when I bought it, two houses ago or three!
We have been doing the family bit over Easter, five of six kids here all with family, first time for about five or six years so have been a bit preoccupied. Will get back on my problem in the next few days.
I think they have stopped all support for these old plotters though. I can't even remember when I bought it, two houses ago or three!
We have been doing the family bit over Easter, five of six kids here all with family, first time for about five or six years so have been a bit preoccupied. Will get back on my problem in the next few days.
I've got a feeling that Windoze Plug-n-Pray has been allocating ever increasing port numbers to your USB adaptor each time you plug it into a different socket, hence my question to look for hidden devices in the control panel. Look first and see what is there before attempting some of these workarounds suggested as some may be hard to reverse once you have done them. After watching Bill Gates personally demonstrate plug-n-play with an Epson printer many years ago during a Windows 95 launch, and promptly seeing it crash with a blue screen of death (much to his embarrassment - he shrugged and rebooted), I can vouch when it works it works well, but when it doesn't, alchemy and witchcraft is often needed.
I'm also guessing that as Windoze updates and new versions were released, the Visual CADD developers also modified their software to work with adaptors such as yours. Have you considered a software update of your Visual CADD may be a quick solution? Is it worth approaching Visual CADD support to confirm this?
Does the laptop have any other printers connected? Were the same printers and plotters connected and working on your old machine? Advise which brand and model if so.
Does your plotter have an optional Ethernet port fitted?
Please keep us posted on developments. Don't abandon this thread and leave it hanging. Your solution may just benefit somebody else having the same issues.
Family first - life has priority. We will still be here when you go back and answer all the questions in our path of discovery.
Last edited by Thirsty; 14th Apr 2023 at 12:08.