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Why does one need to sticky an entire operating system? Surely, if someone is having problems and posts here, then those who can help will answer (as will those who simply Google quickly, but c'est la vie). Stickying a thread doesn't make it any more useful.
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Whats the pro's and cons of all the different flavours of Linux?
Must admit in my IT days is you had a sparc you used solaris and if you had a SG you used IRIX and you just had to live with the differences. Gawd I used to hate those Solaris patch CD's
Must admit in my IT days is you had a sparc you used solaris and if you had a SG you used IRIX and you just had to live with the differences. Gawd I used to hate those Solaris patch CD's
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Whats the pro's and cons of all the different flavours of Linux?
Much the same as asking :
Whats the pro's and cons of Airbus vs Boeing ?
Whats the pro's and cons of Religion X vs Religion Y ?
No clearcut answer .... one consideration could be the commercial backing contributing to the quality of certain distributions.... but that's not something the "open source" community likes to talk about ....
I actually started writing something about this last night, but it got too long. I think that for the average (non-geeky) user, hardware support is the big issue, and I'm happy to say that things are getting better all the time. I've heard good things about Red Hat / Fedora, Mandriva and a few others, but I've been using Ubuntu versions for the last couple of years exclusively, so that's all I can really comment on. On my netbook (eee PC 1000) I had to tweak it to get it going the first time, but they now support it directly, and the "Netbook Remix" version comes with a "front end" adapted to the smaller screen.
Another question is the "look and feel" you want. If you really need it to be as much like Windows as possible, look for one that uses KDE as its graphical interface: Mandriva, Kubuntu. If you like something cleaner and a bit more UNIX-like, look for Gnome: Ubuntu, SuSE. I believe that Fedora installs both by default, and on the others you can always switch from one to the other after installing some extra bits.
Another question is the "look and feel" you want. If you really need it to be as much like Windows as possible, look for one that uses KDE as its graphical interface: Mandriva, Kubuntu. If you like something cleaner and a bit more UNIX-like, look for Gnome: Ubuntu, SuSE. I believe that Fedora installs both by default, and on the others you can always switch from one to the other after installing some extra bits.
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Wot bnt said!
I've tried 'em all (or close). My brain is KDE rather than Gnome, which colours my opinion.
All the distros I tried had little foibles - probably unique to my hardware and my wacky approach to what I wanted to do with the machine.
If I were equipping a new PC and not using Windows 7, it would be Fedora.
The next person, no doubt, would choose something different. The individual distros are all supremely competent, although some require an element of geekdom to get the best out of them.
Errors or "doesn't work" can be challenging. Sometimes, Google will find the complete fix instructions. Other times, an innocent question on a Forum will elicit a stream of abuse.
The amount of (mostly free) software available for the Linux platform is stunning. Kpackage and its equivalents are a wonderful resource for finding stuff to handle any application you can dream of (and some you can't).
I've tried 'em all (or close). My brain is KDE rather than Gnome, which colours my opinion.
All the distros I tried had little foibles - probably unique to my hardware and my wacky approach to what I wanted to do with the machine.
If I were equipping a new PC and not using Windows 7, it would be Fedora.
The next person, no doubt, would choose something different. The individual distros are all supremely competent, although some require an element of geekdom to get the best out of them.
Errors or "doesn't work" can be challenging. Sometimes, Google will find the complete fix instructions. Other times, an innocent question on a Forum will elicit a stream of abuse.
The amount of (mostly free) software available for the Linux platform is stunning. Kpackage and its equivalents are a wonderful resource for finding stuff to handle any application you can dream of (and some you can't).
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Cheers for that.
Must admit when I install Fedora it worked with zero fiddling. Gnome looks like what i was used to on Solaris and Irix so I really can't be bothered looking at KDE even though I could. I have found fedora to go beyond the call of duty with hardware. Just swap a drive/boot using a liveOS dongle and away you go with no issues. Find some new toy to stick in a USB port and it just works.
The software is absolutely amazing for what you get for free.
GIMP by far out strips any other graphics/photo editing tool you get on the PC.
Openoffice more than required for my usage. In fact someway's its better than MSOffice because its not full of features which I will never use.
"vi" doesn't seem to have changed either.
Must admit when I install Fedora it worked with zero fiddling. Gnome looks like what i was used to on Solaris and Irix so I really can't be bothered looking at KDE even though I could. I have found fedora to go beyond the call of duty with hardware. Just swap a drive/boot using a liveOS dongle and away you go with no issues. Find some new toy to stick in a USB port and it just works.
The software is absolutely amazing for what you get for free.
GIMP by far out strips any other graphics/photo editing tool you get on the PC.
Openoffice more than required for my usage. In fact someway's its better than MSOffice because its not full of features which I will never use.
"vi" doesn't seem to have changed either.
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Had a look at it.
vi does the trick for me for edits in /etc so will stick with it.
Wouldn't say I was a black belt in it but even after 10 years not using the thing at least my fingers remember it. Couldn't for the life me explain how to use the thing.
Must admit though I am getting used very quickly with using all the old tools that unix can give.
Need photos off a phone and no cable or IR no problem 1 min FTP server online, N96 with ftp client, local wireless network and 5 mins later photo's transferred.
Want to rename heaps of files write a script done in 4 mins.
All this interactive crap just dulls your mind with bloody clicking at buttons which takes 20-30 times as long as a couple of commands and the use of | and grep.
vi does the trick for me for edits in /etc so will stick with it.
Wouldn't say I was a black belt in it but even after 10 years not using the thing at least my fingers remember it. Couldn't for the life me explain how to use the thing.
Must admit though I am getting used very quickly with using all the old tools that unix can give.
Need photos off a phone and no cable or IR no problem 1 min FTP server online, N96 with ftp client, local wireless network and 5 mins later photo's transferred.
Want to rename heaps of files write a script done in 4 mins.
All this interactive crap just dulls your mind with bloody clicking at buttons which takes 20-30 times as long as a couple of commands and the use of | and grep.
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Mad jock:
I call my Windows colleagues here at work the point-n-click club. When it comes to the command line most are baffled or don't want to know. Or just don't understand the concepts.
Yes, the point-n-click world does have its uses but it sure is nice to know what's under the hood!
I call my Windows colleagues here at work the point-n-click club. When it comes to the command line most are baffled or don't want to know. Or just don't understand the concepts.
Yes, the point-n-click world does have its uses but it sure is nice to know what's under the hood!
Grrr. Don't get me started on editors. I have never gotten on with any editor program that uses modes - e.g. command mode vs. editing mode - or long command sequences. Never mind vi or Emacs, I'm thinking back as far as WordStar. When WordPerfect came along on DOS, I finally found some relief, and got used to Notepad and Word on Windows.
On Linux, if I'm on the command line, I want nano or pico, thank you very much. I'm just trying to edit a text file, not learn a new language.
On Linux, if I'm on the command line, I want nano or pico, thank you very much. I'm just trying to edit a text file, not learn a new language.
I have a tip for Linux users, and people planning to install Linux sometime: get used to keeping the OS and user data separate. These can even be on separate disks (ideally) or partitions.
A bit of history: this notion of keeping user data separate from the OS files is good advice on any operating system, but it's an idea that Windows users have some trouble getting used to, despite Microsoft's recent attempts to enforce it. Windows switched from a single-user OS to a multi-user OS when they brought out NT, so there's been plenty of time for people to get used to this, yet I still see people fighting this idea. (How many of you share one account across a whole family?)
Under Windows you have a folder called "Documents and Settings" (NT, 2000, XP) or "Users" (Vista, 7). Under there, each user has a folder, and all that user's data should go under there. That way, it is hidden from other users. and it's easier to back up.You might say that Windows is becoming more UNIX-like, though NT was heavily influenced by VMS, the OS that ran on DEC VAX systems. (Several VMS designers joined Microsoft to work on NT.)
Under Linux, you have the same concept, but it's called the /home directory. When you install Linux, you might be presented with an option to put /home on a different partition or disk. There is a good reason to do this: if you have to reinstall the OS later, you can wipe the OS partition without wiping the data partition, so data is not lost. During the new installation, you tell Linux to mount that partition as /home without formatting it, and all data and settings are back.
It was funny to see complaints about the security features introduced by Microsoft in Vista, when all they were doing was enforcing the kind of security that UNIX systems have had all along. I think the reason why it became a problem has to do with many applications, especially old ones, being written in with a "single user" mentality, not understanding the need to clearly separate system and user data. It makes sense that Administrator (or root) rights are required when you install an application, but after that it should run without needing Administrator rights.
Anyway, if there's one point to remember, it's this: under multi-user Linux, you will only need root rights for specific tasks, such as installing an application or fixing something. At all other times you will work as a normal user, with your own data and settings distinct from other users and the system. On my Ubuntiu Netbook system I don't even have the root account enabled: I use the "temporary elevation" system (sudo) when I need to do any system maintenance tasks.
A bit of history: this notion of keeping user data separate from the OS files is good advice on any operating system, but it's an idea that Windows users have some trouble getting used to, despite Microsoft's recent attempts to enforce it. Windows switched from a single-user OS to a multi-user OS when they brought out NT, so there's been plenty of time for people to get used to this, yet I still see people fighting this idea. (How many of you share one account across a whole family?)
Under Windows you have a folder called "Documents and Settings" (NT, 2000, XP) or "Users" (Vista, 7). Under there, each user has a folder, and all that user's data should go under there. That way, it is hidden from other users. and it's easier to back up.You might say that Windows is becoming more UNIX-like, though NT was heavily influenced by VMS, the OS that ran on DEC VAX systems. (Several VMS designers joined Microsoft to work on NT.)
Under Linux, you have the same concept, but it's called the /home directory. When you install Linux, you might be presented with an option to put /home on a different partition or disk. There is a good reason to do this: if you have to reinstall the OS later, you can wipe the OS partition without wiping the data partition, so data is not lost. During the new installation, you tell Linux to mount that partition as /home without formatting it, and all data and settings are back.
It was funny to see complaints about the security features introduced by Microsoft in Vista, when all they were doing was enforcing the kind of security that UNIX systems have had all along. I think the reason why it became a problem has to do with many applications, especially old ones, being written in with a "single user" mentality, not understanding the need to clearly separate system and user data. It makes sense that Administrator (or root) rights are required when you install an application, but after that it should run without needing Administrator rights.
Anyway, if there's one point to remember, it's this: under multi-user Linux, you will only need root rights for specific tasks, such as installing an application or fixing something. At all other times you will work as a normal user, with your own data and settings distinct from other users and the system. On my Ubuntiu Netbook system I don't even have the root account enabled: I use the "temporary elevation" system (sudo) when I need to do any system maintenance tasks.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
I think the reason why it became a problem has to do with many applications, especially old ones, being written in with a "single user" mentality, not understanding the need to clearly separate system and user data. It makes sense that Administrator (or root) rights are required when you install an application, but after that it should run without needing Administrator rights.
I usually find that that granting write access to a few files or directories in Program Files or Windows allows the application to be run as a User account, not admin account.
SD
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bnt:
VMS ran on DEC VAXs indeed. And it still runs. On VAXen, Alpha
and Integrity hardware. It's still running strong and has quite the installed base. I've been making money as a VMS Engineer - now OpenVMS - since 1986 and it's still the best operating system, hands down, out there.
But that's not a biased opinion now is it?!!!!
VMS ran on DEC VAXs indeed. And it still runs. On VAXen, Alpha
and Integrity hardware. It's still running strong and has quite the installed base. I've been making money as a VMS Engineer - now OpenVMS - since 1986 and it's still the best operating system, hands down, out there.
But that's not a biased opinion now is it?!!!!
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I'm with bnt on separating OS and data.
My umpteen-distro Linux machine had the data folders (including Thunderbird mail) on the same drive for all distros. For example, I could read the same e-mail and process it, regardless of which distro I was running.
The same technique applies for Windows - after the first crash and reinstall, it becomes a cause of joy that the data were on drives D and up.
My umpteen-distro Linux machine had the data folders (including Thunderbird mail) on the same drive for all distros. For example, I could read the same e-mail and process it, regardless of which distro I was running.
The same technique applies for Windows - after the first crash and reinstall, it becomes a cause of joy that the data were on drives D and up.
Progress report: I upgraded my eee PC 1000 to 9.10 "Karmic" on Friday. A couple of quirks I encountered:
I like the Synaptic package manager, and am not ready to give it up for the new "Ubuntu Software Center" just yet. (I get the impression that the new program is an attempt at a iTunes-like App store, with the possibility of letting developers charge for their apps at some point.).
Synaptic was reporting that many of the apps I had previously installed were "auto-removable". This doesn't mean that they would be removed automatically by the system itself, but that they would be removed if I ran the "apt-get autoremove" command. This is something I do regularly, so this was a bit alarming to see. It turned out that most of the apps in question were redundant, replaced by others, but there were a few I wanted to keep anyway.
The solution was to mark those apps as "manually-installed", which is what they are. Select them, then uncheck "automatically installed" from the Package menu. They then appear as "Installed (manual)" in Status view.
The other things was that I found the performance went down badly. This was down to factors specific to my system here:
- this netbook has solid state drives, so it helps to change a few things, as detailed on some web pages such as this. The upgrade had undone the changes I'd made before, such as the "elevator=noop" change to GRUB. This has a major positive effect on Linux SSD performance.
- Our ISP at home, Eircom, has chronic DNS problems: try and open a webpage, it takes several seconds for them to resolve the website address so your browser can talk to it. This is easily solved by switching to OpenDNS by following the instructions here - or, as I had done, changing the DSL Router configuration. (You can just use their servers without creating an account or anything like that.) Turns out Eircom had pushed out a router update that reset the DNS settings, so it has gone back to defaults, but I've been able to set up the OpenDNS servers on the netbook itself, using their instructions.
Apart from that - I like it. Graphics performance is improved a bit, and performance is now acceptable using the "Extra" graphics settings, though I don't really need that level of "bling" on my humble little netbook.
I like the Synaptic package manager, and am not ready to give it up for the new "Ubuntu Software Center" just yet. (I get the impression that the new program is an attempt at a iTunes-like App store, with the possibility of letting developers charge for their apps at some point.).
Synaptic was reporting that many of the apps I had previously installed were "auto-removable". This doesn't mean that they would be removed automatically by the system itself, but that they would be removed if I ran the "apt-get autoremove" command. This is something I do regularly, so this was a bit alarming to see. It turned out that most of the apps in question were redundant, replaced by others, but there were a few I wanted to keep anyway.
The solution was to mark those apps as "manually-installed", which is what they are. Select them, then uncheck "automatically installed" from the Package menu. They then appear as "Installed (manual)" in Status view.
The other things was that I found the performance went down badly. This was down to factors specific to my system here:
- this netbook has solid state drives, so it helps to change a few things, as detailed on some web pages such as this. The upgrade had undone the changes I'd made before, such as the "elevator=noop" change to GRUB. This has a major positive effect on Linux SSD performance.
- Our ISP at home, Eircom, has chronic DNS problems: try and open a webpage, it takes several seconds for them to resolve the website address so your browser can talk to it. This is easily solved by switching to OpenDNS by following the instructions here - or, as I had done, changing the DSL Router configuration. (You can just use their servers without creating an account or anything like that.) Turns out Eircom had pushed out a router update that reset the DNS settings, so it has gone back to defaults, but I've been able to set up the OpenDNS servers on the netbook itself, using their instructions.
Apart from that - I like it. Graphics performance is improved a bit, and performance is now acceptable using the "Extra" graphics settings, though I don't really need that level of "bling" on my humble little netbook.
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I'm trying to "learn" Linux at the moment. On my pottering around with laptop I have Ubuntu Jaunty installed and I also have it dual boot with XP on my desktop. I have several other distro images on disk also which I will try out when I inevitably bugger up the Jaunty installation.
As a beginner to Linux - my main gripe is DVD playback and all the codecs etc. No matter what updates / codecs / players I install from the repositories, and following all the advice on the millions of Linux websites - I cannot get DVDs to play with a decent picture. It's always slow and grainy.
It took me a few days to figure how to get sound on youtube also. At least I'm on the learning curve though - if at the bottom
As a beginner to Linux - my main gripe is DVD playback and all the codecs etc. No matter what updates / codecs / players I install from the repositories, and following all the advice on the millions of Linux websites - I cannot get DVDs to play with a decent picture. It's always slow and grainy.
It took me a few days to figure how to get sound on youtube also. At least I'm on the learning curve though - if at the bottom
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Learners Corner Linux
X213a -I'm now in exactly the same position -My former dual boot net book. An Acer One - I had a disaster when trying to fix a corrupted Ubuntu update on Fri last.
I ran computer janitor against the systems prompts and got a broken linix install - Urub would not work and I don't have a Windows recovery disk to correct the MBR. (just the factory re install option.)
I bit the bullet and did a full install of 9.04 not 9.10.
It runs OK. So far - An Atom/1GB/160 MB HD.
Don't be tempted to tweek the hardware device drivers re Wireless - I did - idiot of the week. Also search for an app called sbackup or simple backup - its a little gem.
Take a look for firestarter too - A firewall for linux.
Ubuntu 9.04 is proving to be a nice little runner. I will keep everyone informed of my progress.
CAT III
I ran computer janitor against the systems prompts and got a broken linix install - Urub would not work and I don't have a Windows recovery disk to correct the MBR. (just the factory re install option.)
I bit the bullet and did a full install of 9.04 not 9.10.
It runs OK. So far - An Atom/1GB/160 MB HD.
Don't be tempted to tweek the hardware device drivers re Wireless - I did - idiot of the week. Also search for an app called sbackup or simple backup - its a little gem.
Take a look for firestarter too - A firewall for linux.
Ubuntu 9.04 is proving to be a nice little runner. I will keep everyone informed of my progress.
CAT III
Last edited by Guest 112233; 4th Nov 2009 at 11:30.
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If you fancy another go at another distribution try this link.
The Perfect Desktop - Fedora 11 (GNOME) | HowtoForge - Linux Howtos and Tutorials
Haven't had any problems with DVD's although I did with playing music CD's. If you get to that state of play before I find which package I reversed its pretty easy to find if you google it.
And I am on an Acer one with fedora as I type. Its well worth having a search on installing more memory in it. A bit of a pain if your not used to pulling laptops apart but it fly's like the wind with an extra Gig in it.
The Perfect Desktop - Fedora 11 (GNOME) | HowtoForge - Linux Howtos and Tutorials
Haven't had any problems with DVD's although I did with playing music CD's. If you get to that state of play before I find which package I reversed its pretty easy to find if you google it.
And I am on an Acer one with fedora as I type. Its well worth having a search on installing more memory in it. A bit of a pain if your not used to pulling laptops apart but it fly's like the wind with an extra Gig in it.