Decided to do the unthinkable...

[mixture]

Shouldn't happen to a fully patched up to date system with a stealth mode NAT router between you and the net.

Of course there's a window of opportunity before you download the service packs and patches - which you should of course do before worrying about any AV stuff - but still nothing should get past the stealth mode NAT router (or other hardware firewall of your choice).

What a load of old nonsense.

Rule 1 of computer security : Security by obscurity is not security.

NAT was not designed for security. NAT was designed to provide a way to reduce the number of IP addresses that have to be allocated to users.

Lots of ways for things to get past NAT. One of the simplest examples is the human sitting behind the computer

[antic81]

Ok...now just trying to locate a place that actually stocks Windows XP!
Couple of places have it online and for a good price, around £55 or so, one thing I am noticing is there seems to be a huge price difference for something tha looks the same to me, ie Windows XP Home SP2, it starts at 55 and goes all the way to over £160, no idea what the difference why and what the difference is!
Problem with buying online is delivery, I am not at home all day and most places will only deliver to the card holders address for first orders.

What drivers will I need to download for the PC?
I have put a set of my sound drivers on my fancy new external HD, as far as the graphics go I can sort that out on the fresh copy of windows, anything else that I need?

I hope that after all this it works!

Ant

[antic81]

Right so I popped up to the high-street to see how much they were selling XP home for...looks like I will be buying online after all!
£185 for the pleasure of being able to walk out with it in my hand, no chance!
I guess I will just buy it online, where it comes to around £60 (including posting, next day before noon delivery)

My only question is, am I missing something, surely that can't be right?
The online versions are OEM's, but other than that I can't see the slightest difference!

[Saab Dastard]

I suggest that you check MS website for how XP is licensed, what the versions are and how you qualify for OEM, upgrade etc.

Caveat Emptor.

As a service for all, here's the gen straight from MS:

Important Restrictions on Pre-Installed Software

Buying pre-installed licences is a cost-effective way of acquiring software, particularly when you’re replacing hardware at the same time. But like buying an airline ticket, there are some important terms and conditions you need to be aware of before making your choice.

Transferring Desktop Operating System Licences on Pre-installed Software

Desktop Operating System software (such as Windows Vista and XP) that is pre-installed on PCs cannot be transferred; which means it lives and dies with the ‘machine’ it was installed on, unless repaired under warranty. We define the ‘machine’ as the motherboard.

Buying Software Designed for Pre-installation without a PC

Before it is installed onto a PC, software designed for pre-installation is known as OEM system builder software. You may see OEM system builder software for sale that is not pre-installed on PCs.

This usually comes in a pack and is referred to as an OEM system builder pack. This is only intended to be sold to manufacturers or system builders* who are building machines for their customers; end users should not buy OEM system builder software.

Once you open an OEM system builder pack, you are responsible for the ongoing technical support** of that software; the rationale behind this is that if you are opening these OEM system builder licence packs you will be a system builder and it is appropriate for you to be providing support.

*A system builder is defined as an Original Equipment Manufacturer, an assembler, refurbisher, or pre-installer of software on computer systems.

**This effectively means that the person/organisation that opens the OEM system builder licensing pack is responsible for resolving any issue with that software.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about Pre-Installed Software (also Known as OEM System Builder Software)

Q : Does buying pre-installed software give me a full copy of Windows?

A : Yes, purchasing pre-installed software does give you a full copy of Windows.

NB: A Volume Licensing agreement only offers Operating System upgrades; this means that your agreement doesn’t give you the right install a Windows Operating System on any newly-purchased PCs, only to upgrade machines already covered under your agreement.

Q : Can I transfer my pre-installed Windows software to my new PC?

A : No. Pre-installed software lives and dies on the PC that it is installed on.

Q : Can I upgrade the software that was pre-installed on my PC when I bought it with boxed software from a shop (called Full Packaged Product)?

A : Yes

Q : I have bought a PC with Microsoft Office pre-installed. Can I downgrade this to a previous version of Microsoft Office?

A : No. Pre-installed Microsoft Office does not have downgrade rights.

Q : I have purchased Microsoft Office pre-installed on my PC. Can I install a second copy on my laptop?

A : No. Pre-installed Microsoft Office is tied to the original PC and does not have portable use rights. These are only available when you buy boxed software from a shop (called Full Packaged Product) or through Volume Licensing.

Q : Can I install my pre-installed Microsoft Windows on more than one PC?

A : No. Windows is licensed per hardware device. This means one licence is required for each device that it is installed on.

Buying a FPP gives you the right to transfer the software to another PC, and also to MS product support (although I do not know how worthwhile the latter is).

Basically, you will not be able to re-activate your OEM software on a replacement PC. OEM is a one-shot deal. You should still be able to re-install it on the PC that it was originally installed on.

SD

[mixture]

Basically, you will not be able to re-activate your OEM software on a replacement PC. OEM is a one-shot deal. You should still be able to re-install it on the PC that it was originally installed on.

Saab .... it goes further than that, much further.

Microsoft make it clear that OEM software has to be pre-installed. Therefore unless the poster works for an IT company, he/she will be acting illegally from the word go simply by virtue of installing the software themselves. It is also against Microsoft license terms for resellers to market OEM as independently purchasable. OEM must be bundled, always !!! Therefore it is probably also in breach of license terms for a private individual or company to buy OEM and install it on any old PC.

There's nothing stopping you from re-installing (subject to licensing) OEM software, but the first install must be a pre-install by the vendor.

Other than that, as Saab says .... OEM lives and dies with the computer. And with Microsoft's current fancy for mandatory activation, I very much doubt you'll be able to find a way around it.

There is a reason OEM is so cheap .... it's because of the very, very strict licensing terms.

One side benefit of FPP is that you get to install it on PC and laptop for use by the licensee (no simultaneous usage though !).

Ref:
Microsoft OEM License Terms
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicense/default.mspx

Clauses 4,5,6 are particularly relevant. Note also clause 8.

[mixture]

Gertrude The Wombat ...

Re: Admin Rights

RunAs Pro : http://www.mast-computer.com/c_9-l_en.html

Oh, and by the way, what are you doing installing this lot of desktop software :

MSCV6, VB6, Quicken 2000, PSP7, a DVD burner, ancient scanjet driver

On a server ? Surely you don't use Win Server as your desktop ?

[antic81]

Hang on a second...

So what you're telling me is that it is not going to work and I have just wasted my money?

All I want to do is clean up my HD and have it working fresh install of windows!

Should I cancel my order???

[antic81]

Actually I have just re-read Saab's post, as far as I can see I am happy with that, I did build this system myself, ok I moved the HD from the original machine that was bought from PC World with windows pre-installed, I cant remember how I did it, but I registered again over the phone and it worked...for a good two years, now I want to re-install, the restore disks don't work, probably because it is no longer the original machine, fine, no problem, so all I want to know is, when I stick the new disk in, will it allow a fresh copy to be installed over the existing one, therefore cleaning the HD and having a fresh install, I suspect that I will only find this out on trying it.
If not that was an expensive mistake, to be honest the sites are not exactly clear on what OEM's are, you just type in Windows XP Home and it gives you that option.

[Saab Dastard]

Yes, it is perfectly acceptable to buy OEM software.

You are required to register as a System Builder with MS - anyone can do so, and it's free. You can install OEM software on both new and refurbished computers. The only other requirement is to install the software using the OEM Preinstallation Kit.

SD

[mixture]

to be honest the sites are not exactly clear on what OEM's are, you just type in Windows XP Home and it gives you that option.

Therein lies the problem ....

As Saab quite rightly pointed out, you can buy it ....

Problem is your average Joe Bloggs is unlikely to be buying it for the correct reason as far as licensing goes.

That's the point I was trying to get accross, watch the licensing. Microsoft do view "mischanneling" as piracy.

Hope that helps clarify.

[Saab Dastard]

Problem is your average Joe Bloggs is unlikely to be buying it for the correct reason as far as licensing goes.

Mixture, I think we are on the same wavelength here - what is feasible and what is legal do not necessarily overlap!

MS does seem to recognise that Joe Bloggs can and does build his own PC, and is reluctantly admitting that that qualifies as an OEM install. I guess they figure they are better off with the revenue from an OEM license than no revenue at all. After all, a lot of technically competent bods might otherwise jump to Linux!

That's just my opinion, based on what I have read about the topic.

SD

[antic81]

Saab,

Er...just wondering, where do I get an OEM pre-installation Kit?
And are we saying that there is more to installing the software than just popping the disk into the drive and following the screen prompts?

What have I gotten myself into??

[Saab Dastard]

Legally, you have to sign up with MS to become a System Builder in order to use an OEM license. This can be done online, on the MS website using a .Net Passport, which you simply register for. You can then download the OPK. You should then install the OEM XP using the OPK.

It is very probably technically possible to simply put the CD in the drive and install XP from there but, legally, you should follow the MS requirements.

Whether you do or not is up to you and your conscience. If it works, and passes validation OK, then it is very unlikely that anyone is going to investigate further. Never having gone down this route, I cannot say what the outcome will be.

SD

[mixture]

I guess they figure they are better off with the revenue from an OEM license than no revenue at all

I think overall there does need to be a better push by Microsoft to clarify to Joe Bloggs in plain english what OEM means. And anyone selling to Joe Bloggs types should really require J.B. to pick up the phone and be told all about OEM software rather than just being able to order it off the website.

But yes, I guess it probably is a case of revenue from mischanneling vs no revenue from pure piracy.

Being a Mac user outside of work, I'm not one to defend Microsoft ...however I do think that the discount given on OEM products in return for stricter licensing terms is a fair one, and that the OEM licensing terms themselves are also pretty fair. I'm all for "home" system builders .... I've built one or two PCs myself, back in the dark ages .... but if licensing terms are abused, you may find Microsoft only making OEM available to branded PC manufacturers ....

I think my 2p worth has now become £2 worth ..... so I'll stop here !

Best of luck with your home PC building antic .... great fun ! Wish I still had the time to do that !

[green granite]

When I brought my last but one PC from Eavesham, some 3 years ago it came with XP but I had to finish off the install and register it at home it was supplied with the serial no and I had no problems getting it registered at all.

[P.Pilcher]

The more I read this, the more I am inclined to acquire that book I saw for sale in a famous P.C. retailer entitled "Ubuntu". Microsoft will have to realise, with the complexity and obscurity of their current licensing schmes that there IS competition out there and their attitude is driving more and more of their customers (like me) to seriously consider the alternative. After all, like most domestic customers all I need is an OS which provides me with a protected radio LAN with open access to the other computers on my network.
With trepidation I moved up from Win 95 and 98 SE to XP because of its superior photograph handling facilities. This was a good reason for moving up despite the learning curve. There is no similar reason for moving up again to Vista and we all know what a catastrophe that has become! Unfortunately, getting a new computer without Vista is now becoming extremely difficult and the last time I had a requirement for such, a second hand one with XP on was the only obvious solution.
I assume that my Ubuntu disk, when I finally pluck up the courage to boot it up will enable me to format the hard drive which originally contained a Microsoft product.

P.P.

[Wader2]

Green Granite, dat am true BUT you will possiblyfind that one group of your licence was -oem- or some other code that is recognised as an OEM code.

When you enter this in an online request you are politely refered to the OEM.

[Saab Dastard]

I assume that my Ubuntu disk, when I finally pluck up the courage to boot it up

The Standard Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Xubuntu install disk* allows you to boot into a "virtual" installation, running off the CD, that is not actually written to disk, so that you don't disturb your existing installation - whatever it is - giving you the opportunity to "try" the OS before installing it fully. You can actually access the "Windows" hard disks - even NTFS - which is how a number of useful Linux-based recovery (and Windows password changing) applications work!

You could then do a dual-boot install, assuming that you wanted to go ahead with the installation, which would still leave you the option to go back to Windows. Although NTFS write-access is still a bit iffy under Linux (MS have never released the proprietary NTFS spec. (this may change / have changed recently, not sure).

I bought a 2nd internal hard disk and mounting caddy for my laptop, so that I can swap completely (undo one screw, slide out disk, replace, do up one screw - 1 minute job). This suits me because I just use Kubuntu for learning purposes at this time - I am still firmly anchored to XP for many reasons.

SD

* - Except the Alternative Install image, which is designed for systems with insufficient RAM for the "trial" install.

[green granite]

Wader2 the point I was making was that I wasn't asked about OEM status or owt else when I registered it, I just went on line and it did it.

[mixture]

Unfortunately, getting a new computer without Vista is now becoming extremely difficult and the last time I had a requirement for such, a second hand one with XP on was the only obvious solution.

I believe HP make machines that you can downgrade to XP out of the box.

Also, I know I promised not to talk about licensing again ... but .... Microsoft give downgrade rights to XP from Vista Business. You have to provide your own CD and legal license key from a copy of XP licensed to you (e.g. on your old PC). But this can only be done with Vista Business and not Home, Ultimate, whatever....

Of course, unless you buy one of the HP type boxes mentioned above, if downgrading from VB on any other machine, you will need to make sure XP drivers are available .... otherwise you will be doing this ... ==>