Backups
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: At home
Backups
I have finally realized that I need to save a copy of my computer data and have been experimenting with Win XP's backup utility, without much luck I'm afraid.
Quite simple really, the computer has two hard drives and I plan to use a plug-in Maxtor external drive to backup into. The great plan has me simply telling the PC to backup the entire C and D drive to the Maxtor (G) and programing the utility to automatically overwrite or modify the backup copy with the daily changes. The Maxtor will easily hold twice the amount of data I have. It sounds easy but my limited ability appears to be the sticking point.
I'd rather use the XP utility than buy a specific backup program, but if I need to, then I must.
I'm keen to hear from fellow PPRuNers who have useful advice on either how to manipulate the XP utility or what I need to buy to do what I want.
Appreciate your input.
STL
Quite simple really, the computer has two hard drives and I plan to use a plug-in Maxtor external drive to backup into. The great plan has me simply telling the PC to backup the entire C and D drive to the Maxtor (G) and programing the utility to automatically overwrite or modify the backup copy with the daily changes. The Maxtor will easily hold twice the amount of data I have. It sounds easy but my limited ability appears to be the sticking point.
I'd rather use the XP utility than buy a specific backup program, but if I need to, then I must.
I'm keen to hear from fellow PPRuNers who have useful advice on either how to manipulate the XP utility or what I need to buy to do what I want.
Appreciate your input.
STL
N4790P
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,557
Likes: 233
From: Asia
No contest – IMHO Acronis is the way to go.
Recent experiences following a hard disc failure were very positive. No significant issues from clone back from a USB drive onto a new hard drive.
Has incremental back up as you require.
Recent experiences following a hard disc failure were very positive. No significant issues from clone back from a USB drive onto a new hard drive.
Has incremental back up as you require.
Administrator
Joined: Mar 2001
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,121
Likes: 686
From: Twickenham, home of rugby
STL,
What exactly is the problem? Where are you getting stuck?
The XP utility is actually a cut-down of Seagate Backup Exec (this goes back to the days of NT4), which got bought by Veritas, who in turn got bought by Symantec. But I digress.
Despite its age, it is still quite usable, and you can certainly specify USB attached external disks as the backup location.
SD
What exactly is the problem? Where are you getting stuck?
The XP utility is actually a cut-down of Seagate Backup Exec (this goes back to the days of NT4), which got bought by Veritas, who in turn got bought by Symantec. But I digress.
Despite its age, it is still quite usable, and you can certainly specify USB attached external disks as the backup location.
SD
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: At home
Saab D
My ideal would be that I copy a selected bunch of folders to the external drive and program the backup utility to have the folders systematically updated at a pre-set time each day (or prior to shutting down) to reflect changes made to the originals. Something similar to the way that my work laptop synchronizes the folders that are backed up on the server would be just fine but I can't see how the XP utility can be optioned to do it.
Am I asking too much of XP here?
My ideal would be that I copy a selected bunch of folders to the external drive and program the backup utility to have the folders systematically updated at a pre-set time each day (or prior to shutting down) to reflect changes made to the originals. Something similar to the way that my work laptop synchronizes the folders that are backed up on the server would be just fine but I can't see how the XP utility can be optioned to do it.
Am I asking too much of XP here?
Administrator
Joined: Mar 2001
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,121
Likes: 686
From: Twickenham, home of rugby
STL,
You can a) select the source to back up, b) select the destination and c) schedule the job, all using the XP backup utility.
I don't see the problem.
SD
You can a) select the source to back up, b) select the destination and c) schedule the job, all using the XP backup utility.
I don't see the problem.
SD
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
Likes: 4
From: UK
I use the basic MS XP back-up to schedule two full/over-write back-ups a week (covers machine off due to absence) of 'My Documents and Folders' to a different hard drive. Each one goes to a separate folder.
It is easy to set up as SD says and does the job. Acronis is indeed a good programme with lots of other facilities but the 'packaged' back-up is fine for what you want. There is plenty of 'help' with it on the web via Google.
It is easy to set up as SD says and does the job. Acronis is indeed a good programme with lots of other facilities but the 'packaged' back-up is fine for what you want. There is plenty of 'help' with it on the web via Google.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: England
My situation is pretty similar to Saw the light's. We have two lappies and a desk top currently in use with the minimum of backing up (on disk) going on!
One lappy has a 20 GB HD, the other approx a 35GB one partitioned in two. The desktop has 80GB but with less than 20 being used.
My bright idea was to buy 2.5" 100GB external drive, "partition" it in four and then just do a complete back up of everything (in case one of the drives dies), with occasional backups afterwards as required.
Went ahead and got the drive and have now spent half a day googling how to partition an HD and at this stage I'm not even sure if what I propose is possible. The "primary, extended or logical" choices have me scratching my head. Oh and I can see in "disk management" on the desktop, it appears to have a seperate (primary?) 55MB FAT (for the OS?) outside the 74.5GB NTFS on the C: drive!?
I have been well and truly reminded that I have never got past the first step on the ladder of computer knowledge!
Could anybody tell me if my original proposal is possible? Advisable? Or do I just need to stop being a tightwad and get seperate backup drives?
One lappy has a 20 GB HD, the other approx a 35GB one partitioned in two. The desktop has 80GB but with less than 20 being used.
My bright idea was to buy 2.5" 100GB external drive, "partition" it in four and then just do a complete back up of everything (in case one of the drives dies), with occasional backups afterwards as required.
Went ahead and got the drive and have now spent half a day googling how to partition an HD and at this stage I'm not even sure if what I propose is possible. The "primary, extended or logical" choices have me scratching my head. Oh and I can see in "disk management" on the desktop, it appears to have a seperate (primary?) 55MB FAT (for the OS?) outside the 74.5GB NTFS on the C: drive!?
I have been well and truly reminded that I have never got past the first step on the ladder of computer knowledge!
Could anybody tell me if my original proposal is possible? Advisable? Or do I just need to stop being a tightwad and get seperate backup drives?
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
Likes: 0
From: Rochechouart, France
XXCOPY C:\ D:\ /CLONE
Get XXCOPY at http://www.xxcopy.com/index.htm
Or use DeltaCopy (rsync for Windows) - http://www.aboutmyip.com/AboutMyXApp/DeltaCopy.jsp
Get XXCOPY at http://www.xxcopy.com/index.htm
Or use DeltaCopy (rsync for Windows) - http://www.aboutmyip.com/AboutMyXApp/DeltaCopy.jsp
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Do you need to partition the drive?
I do pretty much what you're suggesting. My plug-in drive has one partition, and four folders on it, called "Laptop", "Desktop", "Old Machine" and "Linux box".
The backup routines on each machine know which folder to use. Within that folder, they create a new folder with the backup date, then copy everything I want backed up into that folder.
When the drive starts to get full, I delete the "in between" backups and keep a selection. Some, I archive off to DVDROM.
Defragging it occasionally is a good idea, too.
I've only used the backup to restore a couple of times in ten years, but it was a lifesaver at the time.
I do pretty much what you're suggesting. My plug-in drive has one partition, and four folders on it, called "Laptop", "Desktop", "Old Machine" and "Linux box".
The backup routines on each machine know which folder to use. Within that folder, they create a new folder with the backup date, then copy everything I want backed up into that folder.
When the drive starts to get full, I delete the "in between" backups and keep a selection. Some, I archive off to DVDROM.
Defragging it occasionally is a good idea, too.
I've only used the backup to restore a couple of times in ten years, but it was a lifesaver at the time.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: England
I'll look at those as well bnt, thanks.
Keef, I had this idea that I could copy the whole hard drive, os and all, of each machine and that a complete restore would then be a doddle. I think I would need partitions for that.
However as it's all looking a bit difficult I think your route will be the answer.
Keef, I had this idea that I could copy the whole hard drive, os and all, of each machine and that a complete restore would then be a doddle. I think I would need partitions for that.
However as it's all looking a bit difficult I think your route will be the answer.
Hippopotomonstrosesquipidelian title
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,825
Likes: 1
From: is everything
had this idea that I could copy the whole hard drive, os and all, of each machine and that a complete restore would then be a doddle
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Yes, you'd need partitions for that.
Can FDISK see the USB drive? If it can, you should be able to partition it using that. If not, one option is to take it out of the caddy and connect it to a laptop (it being a 2½ inch drive) which you boot with a floppy containing FDISK.
If I read your question right (and I'm good at getting the question wrong!), your confusion is about primary, extended, and logical partitions.
Primary is usually the first partition on a drive, and is one you can "boot" from. Different systems limit you to how many of those you can have - anything from one to four, in my experience.
Extended is the rest of the hard drive. You need only one extended partition, using all the rest of the drive that isn't primary. You then break that extended partition down into as many as you like...
Logical partitions. They are actually like subfolders within the extended partition, but if you treat them as separate partitions, they will go along with that.
Changing partitions tends to wipe off everything that's on the drive (not necessarily, but that's the way to work - if you need to preserve stuff, then use Partition Magic or one of the Windows equivalents. Linux stuff is much more accommodating in that respect).
So, my suggestion would be:
1. Decide how many partitions you want (sounds like 4).
2. Create one 25GB primary partition.
3. Create one 75GB ("all the rest of the disk space") extended partition.
4. Create three 25GB logical partitions in the extended (the last one might be a tad more or less than 25GB).
5. Format all those partitions (might take a time).
7. Continue as planned with the clone software - whichever package you've chosen to use.
Can FDISK see the USB drive? If it can, you should be able to partition it using that. If not, one option is to take it out of the caddy and connect it to a laptop (it being a 2½ inch drive) which you boot with a floppy containing FDISK.
If I read your question right (and I'm good at getting the question wrong!), your confusion is about primary, extended, and logical partitions.
Primary is usually the first partition on a drive, and is one you can "boot" from. Different systems limit you to how many of those you can have - anything from one to four, in my experience.
Extended is the rest of the hard drive. You need only one extended partition, using all the rest of the drive that isn't primary. You then break that extended partition down into as many as you like...
Logical partitions. They are actually like subfolders within the extended partition, but if you treat them as separate partitions, they will go along with that.
Changing partitions tends to wipe off everything that's on the drive (not necessarily, but that's the way to work - if you need to preserve stuff, then use Partition Magic or one of the Windows equivalents. Linux stuff is much more accommodating in that respect).
So, my suggestion would be:
1. Decide how many partitions you want (sounds like 4).
2. Create one 25GB primary partition.
3. Create one 75GB ("all the rest of the disk space") extended partition.
4. Create three 25GB logical partitions in the extended (the last one might be a tad more or less than 25GB).
5. Format all those partitions (might take a time).
7. Continue as planned with the clone software - whichever package you've chosen to use.
Hippopotomonstrosesquipidelian title
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,825
Likes: 1
From: is everything
STILL looks like Acronis then.
Let's ask a different question: out of all those who routinely back up, who's ever had to do a disaster recovery, and succeeded? By which I mean, the machine is in the same state it was an hour ago, and you're working again.
Let's ask a different question: out of all those who routinely back up, who's ever had to do a disaster recovery, and succeeded? By which I mean, the machine is in the same state it was an hour ago, and you're working again.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: England
Yes, you'd need partitions for that.
doesn't need seperate partitions, just 3 different folders.
Firstly, thanks for all the input fellas. Your description of the partitions to create Keef, gives me something to work on if I continue on that route.
However, spannersatcx's method and successful subsequent back up, does suggest that perhaps partitions are not needed?
Having had a look at the software options and being such a clutch on computer anyway, I have taken the good advice and ordered Acronis.
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
Likes: 0
From: Rochechouart, France
First of all, having the OS and your data on the same physical drive is not wise.
And backing up to a different partition on the same physical drive is only marginally worse than not backing up at all. Fried drive, corrupted MFT/MBR and bye-bye data forever.
Backing up to a different internal drive on the same drive controller isn't much better, for the same reasons.
Backing up to a removable drive (caddy or USB) is good, but a raw machine readable copy, rather than a backup compressed in some proprietary format that needs the OS and backup program reinstalled is much more flexible.
Imaging the drive to a removable drive is OK, but you must be sure of the integrity of the image. A corrupted image may well lose the lot, rather than just a few files.
I have about 10,000 irreplaceable images (and other stuff) on my main machine's data drive and multiple backup strategies.
1) I do an incremental copy of the data drive to a caddy removable drive that spends most of it's time at work (20km away). This drive gets copied to the work machine when I get there and is stashed away in another part of the building until next time.
2) I have a separate machine hidden away at the far end of the house in a locked cabinet with a fat UPS. This runs FreeNAS (a BSD Unix variant) and the main machine backs up in real time to the primary disk on this machine. The primary disk does a weekly rsync to a secondary disk on this machine and the secondary disk does a monthly rsync to a third drive.
I don't think backing up the OS drive is helpful. If the OS gets hosed or is somehow compromised you'll never know what is reliable. The best restore is a full reinstall.
Paranoid? Sure.
Have I ever lost any data to mechanical or software failure. Not yet.
Mac
And backing up to a different partition on the same physical drive is only marginally worse than not backing up at all. Fried drive, corrupted MFT/MBR and bye-bye data forever.
Backing up to a different internal drive on the same drive controller isn't much better, for the same reasons.
Backing up to a removable drive (caddy or USB) is good, but a raw machine readable copy, rather than a backup compressed in some proprietary format that needs the OS and backup program reinstalled is much more flexible.
Imaging the drive to a removable drive is OK, but you must be sure of the integrity of the image. A corrupted image may well lose the lot, rather than just a few files.
I have about 10,000 irreplaceable images (and other stuff) on my main machine's data drive and multiple backup strategies.
1) I do an incremental copy of the data drive to a caddy removable drive that spends most of it's time at work (20km away). This drive gets copied to the work machine when I get there and is stashed away in another part of the building until next time.
2) I have a separate machine hidden away at the far end of the house in a locked cabinet with a fat UPS. This runs FreeNAS (a BSD Unix variant) and the main machine backs up in real time to the primary disk on this machine. The primary disk does a weekly rsync to a secondary disk on this machine and the secondary disk does a monthly rsync to a third drive.
I don't think backing up the OS drive is helpful. If the OS gets hosed or is somehow compromised you'll never know what is reliable. The best restore is a full reinstall.
Paranoid? Sure.
Have I ever lost any data to mechanical or software failure. Not yet.
Mac
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
A bit like Mac - I don't bother to back up the basic operating system or any of the software that came on CD or install disks. Anything I've downloaded that I reckon I'd want to reinstall quickly is on a CD in the rack in my study.
The thing I don't want to lose is my data. That's the backup routine that goes to the USB drive.
At the moment, I use the laptop in the Norfolk hideyhole, but the next new PC here will see this one go to Norfolk, with the opportunity to back up key stuff between the two using the VPN.
The thing I don't want to lose is my data. That's the backup routine that goes to the USB drive.
At the moment, I use the laptop in the Norfolk hideyhole, but the next new PC here will see this one go to Norfolk, with the opportunity to back up key stuff between the two using the VPN.