Linux
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
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From: Rochechouart, France
Originally Posted by Keef
Setting up Samba to allow the machines to see each other and swap files around needed some geek-code to be entered into various files in the root directory (smb.conf, bootmisc.sh, /etc/udev/rules.d/local.rules). I won't tell you how long it took to find out that those were the ones to edit, or exactly what geekery to put in.
I've set up Samba manually lots of times and never had to edit anything but smb.conf
"bootmisc.sh, /etc/udev/rules.d/local.rules"
udev provides a dynamic device directory containing only the files for actually present devices. It creates or removes device node files usually located in the /dev/ directory, or it renames network interfaces.
udev has nothing to do with Samba
Why do I get this feeling that you're going to say, "Well, I dunno, but Samba didn't work for me until I did it".
In one of your other posts you also had all sorts of obscure references that I couldn't for the life of me see had to do with your "difficulties".
"Debian on the Linux machine, hard-wired to the network, can now see the Laser printer but not the inkjet. It took me several months to get that far."
I don't know what distro you're using (except that it appears to be Debian based) but several months?
If something took me several months I'd have chucked it out long before.
Bits of many Linux distros don't always work "out of the box" - we've already established that. But your experiences seem to verge on the bizarre.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 778
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From: London, UK
FWIW, Keef is no troll.
Modern Linux distributions usually come with plenty of admin tools to avoid the need to edit configuration files by hand, but if not there is always Webmin which will do the vast majority of all admin tasks that the vast majority of users would want to do.
Modern Linux distributions usually come with plenty of admin tools to avoid the need to edit configuration files by hand, but if not there is always Webmin which will do the vast majority of all admin tasks that the vast majority of users would want to do.
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
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From: Rochechouart, France
drauk, I'm glad Keef is no troll.
But I'm still terminally puzzled by as to why he should be tinkering with /udev/rules.d to get Samba working. Not being an Linux uber-guru I was only vaguely aware of the udev folder since I've never had occasion to poke around in it. From my reading, not many people do.
udev is the device manager for the 2.6 kernel series - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev for the most succinct overview. Udev uses information exported by the kernel drivers to the sysfs filesystem (usually mounted on /sys) to identify specific devices and to then associate them with specific names in /dev.
I'm at a loss to find any connection with Samba at all
Daniel Drake's "Writing udev rules" at http://www.reactivated.net/writing_u...xample-printer discusses udev rules at length. Nothing that I can connect to Samba (which I know enough to be reasonably comfortable with).
Here's a not untypical /udev/rules.d/local.rules
# Optical Devices
# Added by Shilo 09/12/2004
#BUS="ide", KERNEL="hdc", NAME="%k", SYMLINK="dvd dvdrw cdroms/dvdrw cdroms/cdrom0", MODE="0660", GROUP="cdrom"
#BUS="ide", KERNEL="hdd", NAME="%k", SYMLINK="cdrom dvdrom cdroms/dvdrom cdroms/cdrom1", MODE="0660", GROUP="cdrom"
KERNEL="hdc", SYMLINK="dvd dvdrw cdroms/dvdrw cdroms/cdrom0"
KERNEL="hdd", SYMLINK="cdrom dvdrom cdroms/dvdrom cdroms/cdrom1"
# Windows formatted iPod mini support
BUS="scsi", SYSFS{model}="iPod ", KERNEL="sd?2", NAME="ipod", SYMLINK="%k", MODE="0777", GROUP="ipod"
I'm sure that Keef does have difficulties with Linux (we all do at times, just as with Windows), but the problems that he has enumerated (and been unable to solve, even after months of intensive effort) don't seem to be typical of normal user problems and often seem to involve configuration files buried deep in the tree that have no obvious connection to the issues he encounters.
__________________
"Bother," said Pooh as he struggled with /etc/sendmail.cf, "it never does quite what I want. I wish Christopher Robin was here."
But I'm still terminally puzzled by as to why he should be tinkering with /udev/rules.d to get Samba working. Not being an Linux uber-guru I was only vaguely aware of the udev folder since I've never had occasion to poke around in it. From my reading, not many people do.
udev is the device manager for the 2.6 kernel series - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev for the most succinct overview. Udev uses information exported by the kernel drivers to the sysfs filesystem (usually mounted on /sys) to identify specific devices and to then associate them with specific names in /dev.
I'm at a loss to find any connection with Samba at all
Daniel Drake's "Writing udev rules" at http://www.reactivated.net/writing_u...xample-printer discusses udev rules at length. Nothing that I can connect to Samba (which I know enough to be reasonably comfortable with).
Here's a not untypical /udev/rules.d/local.rules
# Optical Devices
# Added by Shilo 09/12/2004
#BUS="ide", KERNEL="hdc", NAME="%k", SYMLINK="dvd dvdrw cdroms/dvdrw cdroms/cdrom0", MODE="0660", GROUP="cdrom"
#BUS="ide", KERNEL="hdd", NAME="%k", SYMLINK="cdrom dvdrom cdroms/dvdrom cdroms/cdrom1", MODE="0660", GROUP="cdrom"
KERNEL="hdc", SYMLINK="dvd dvdrw cdroms/dvdrw cdroms/cdrom0"
KERNEL="hdd", SYMLINK="cdrom dvdrom cdroms/dvdrom cdroms/cdrom1"
# Windows formatted iPod mini support
BUS="scsi", SYSFS{model}="iPod ", KERNEL="sd?2", NAME="ipod", SYMLINK="%k", MODE="0777", GROUP="ipod"
I'm sure that Keef does have difficulties with Linux (we all do at times, just as with Windows), but the problems that he has enumerated (and been unable to solve, even after months of intensive effort) don't seem to be typical of normal user problems and often seem to involve configuration files buried deep in the tree that have no obvious connection to the issues he encounters.
__________________
"Bother," said Pooh as he struggled with /etc/sendmail.cf, "it never does quite what I want. I wish Christopher Robin was here."
Oh Shazbat!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: Leeds, UK
STL - Watching this thread, do you have the answer you need now? 
It's all very well saying that you can get Linux to do what you want with a little tinkering etc but it still comes down to - "What do you want it to do?" and "Do you have time to make it do it?"
Cheerio is right - if you want a simple desktop o/s, and all you need to do is surf & send email then Linux is a great way of getting more bang per buck out of older systems and I agree that Suse or Ubuntu make easy work of this.
However, try to go on a step and set up networking with other systems, printers etc and you start getting into the need for some skills. My personal bugbear with my Linux desktop is media - trying to get media players working to accept internet radio streams
My personal test on this is the "help test" - if I put Linux on a PC for a member of my family, how often would they be asking for help. The answer sadly is far more often than with Windows, and I get asked enough with Windows as it is.
As you say STL - a bit of experimentation is the best way to tell if Linux is what you want. Beware installing it on your windows PC as most Linux versions overwrite the boot loader with GRUB or LILO which works well but is a tough one to back out of if you ever want to clean Linux off the PC in future
It's all very well saying that you can get Linux to do what you want with a little tinkering etc but it still comes down to - "What do you want it to do?" and "Do you have time to make it do it?"
Cheerio is right - if you want a simple desktop o/s, and all you need to do is surf & send email then Linux is a great way of getting more bang per buck out of older systems and I agree that Suse or Ubuntu make easy work of this.
However, try to go on a step and set up networking with other systems, printers etc and you start getting into the need for some skills. My personal bugbear with my Linux desktop is media - trying to get media players working to accept internet radio streams
My personal test on this is the "help test" - if I put Linux on a PC for a member of my family, how often would they be asking for help. The answer sadly is far more often than with Windows, and I get asked enough with Windows as it is.
As you say STL - a bit of experimentation is the best way to tell if Linux is what you want. Beware installing it on your windows PC as most Linux versions overwrite the boot loader with GRUB or LILO which works well but is a tough one to back out of if you ever want to clean Linux off the PC in future
Supercalifragilistic
expialidocious
expialidocious
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 589
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From: Essex, UK
Yes
>Is Linux a real alternative to WinXP or other Windows versions for the home and/or small business user?
Yes is the straight answer.
If you trained someone from scratch on Linux, who had never used a PC before then they would be as productive, if not more as it's very secure and less targetted by malware, as a Windows user.
However if you have used Windows it is different. There are things to learn and things to unlearn. The key issues are dealing with all the propriatary files "business" uses and making the choice between all the optioons Linux and open source software offers.
In General, with a modern PC and Linux distribution inistallation is simple - especially if you get your internet connection via a router into the ethernet port.
My suggestion, make the break gently, install Open Office and try all the spread sheets and documents you have in that instead of MS Office. Switch browsers form IE to Firefox (Keep IE or doing any manual Windows updates becoems tedious!). Load Thunderbird instead of Outlook Express (I must admit I am so used to Outlook form the Office Thunderbird at home toook a bit more getting used to!)
Once you are comfortable with those core applications, which all look and work the same under Linux, the switch will be much smoother.
Memetic
Yes is the straight answer.
If you trained someone from scratch on Linux, who had never used a PC before then they would be as productive, if not more as it's very secure and less targetted by malware, as a Windows user.
However if you have used Windows it is different. There are things to learn and things to unlearn. The key issues are dealing with all the propriatary files "business" uses and making the choice between all the optioons Linux and open source software offers.
In General, with a modern PC and Linux distribution inistallation is simple - especially if you get your internet connection via a router into the ethernet port.
My suggestion, make the break gently, install Open Office and try all the spread sheets and documents you have in that instead of MS Office. Switch browsers form IE to Firefox (Keep IE or doing any manual Windows updates becoems tedious!). Load Thunderbird instead of Outlook Express (I must admit I am so used to Outlook form the Office Thunderbird at home toook a bit more getting used to!)
Once you are comfortable with those core applications, which all look and work the same under Linux, the switch will be much smoother.
Memetic
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
Likes: 0
From: Rochechouart, France
"Beware installing it on your windows PC as most Linux versions overwrite the boot loader with GRUB or LILO which works well but is a tough one to back out of if you ever want to clean Linux off the PC in future"
Depends what you define as tough really.....
To get rid of the Linux bootloader (GRUB or LILO).
Boot to your Windows XP CD and select the first Repair option.
This will put you into the Recovery Console.
You will need the Administrators password.
Run FixMBR (just type "fixmbr" - without the parentheses - and press the ENTER key).
This replaces the Linux boot loader with the Windows one.
Take the Windows CD out and reboot, you'll come up in Windows
Not so-o-o-o bad was it?
Now you can delete the Linux partitions from Settings > Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Disk Management. The Linux partitions will show up as Unknown.
You can then create FAT32/NTFS partition(s) in the resulting empty space and format them as usual.
Depends what you define as tough really.....
To get rid of the Linux bootloader (GRUB or LILO).
Boot to your Windows XP CD and select the first Repair option.
This will put you into the Recovery Console.
You will need the Administrators password.
Run FixMBR (just type "fixmbr" - without the parentheses - and press the ENTER key).
This replaces the Linux boot loader with the Windows one.
Take the Windows CD out and reboot, you'll come up in Windows
Not so-o-o-o bad was it?
Now you can delete the Linux partitions from Settings > Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Disk Management. The Linux partitions will show up as Unknown.
You can then create FAT32/NTFS partition(s) in the resulting empty space and format them as usual.
Oh Shazbat!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: Leeds, UK
Mac the Knife
Just compare the two operations:
(1) Installing LILO/GRUB
Automatic as part of install process, one screen, one simple answer (unless you want to install GRUB on the 2nd hard disc as I did and modify the XP loader to load it, then it's a bucket of problems)
(2) Removing LILO/GRUB
Easy when you've done it a few times, but for the first time user add "Looking at Microsoft support web site for details of how to reinstall MBR" and "Noticing the warning that doing this may cause further problems"
To me, if it installs easily it should deinstall just as easily, but then I only design software for a living so what do I know about this?
Just compare the two operations:
(1) Installing LILO/GRUB
Automatic as part of install process, one screen, one simple answer (unless you want to install GRUB on the 2nd hard disc as I did and modify the XP loader to load it, then it's a bucket of problems)
(2) Removing LILO/GRUB
To get rid of the Linux bootloader (GRUB or LILO).
Boot to your Windows XP CD and select the first Repair option.
This will put you into the Recovery Console.
You will need the Administrators password.
Run FixMBR (just type "fixmbr" - without the parentheses - and press the ENTER key).
This replaces the Linux boot loader with the Windows one.
Take the Windows CD out and reboot, you'll come up in Windows
Boot to your Windows XP CD and select the first Repair option.
This will put you into the Recovery Console.
You will need the Administrators password.
Run FixMBR (just type "fixmbr" - without the parentheses - and press the ENTER key).
This replaces the Linux boot loader with the Windows one.
Take the Windows CD out and reboot, you'll come up in Windows
To me, if it installs easily it should deinstall just as easily, but then I only design software for a living so what do I know about this?
Supercalifragilistic
expialidocious
expialidocious
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 589
Likes: 0
From: Essex, UK
Originally Posted by batninth
To me, if it installs easily it should deinstall just as easily, but then I only design software for a living so what do I know about this?
(By the way I should have added, I use XP at work, No choice. And mix of XP and linux at home. XP is the default boot on the main home laptop as I share that and my other half uses lots of sites that are microsoft tech dependent.)
Last edited by Memetic; 13th July 2006 at 11:21.
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
Likes: 0
From: Rochechouart, France
"...if it installs easily it should deinstall just as easily..."
Well, if your distro uses YAST (like Control Panel in Windows) it does
"7.6. Uninstalling the Linux Boot Loader
YaST can be used to uninstall the Linux boot loader and restore the MBR to the state prior to the installation of Linux. During the installation, YaST automatically creates a backup copy of the original MBR and restores it on request, overwriting GRUB.
To uninstall GRUB, start the YaST boot loader module (‘System’->‘Boot Loader Configuration’). In the first dialog, select ‘Reset’->‘Restore MBR of Hard Disk’ and exit the dialog with Finish. In the MBR, GRUB is overwritten with the data of the original MBR."
If you install Windows over Linux, Windows will wipe your hard drive and replace your bootloader with no backups and no questions. There no return from a Windows installation!
No-one is forced to use Linux y'know (unlike Windows)! If you don't like it or if you're sure the people who've told you that it's awful and terribly difficult are right then please, be Bill's guest! If you're happy with Windows, Tux isn't bothered!
Bill G. is the only one who wants to force everyone to use his OS and apps. and everything and make sure we all live in an expensive MS supervised DRM-ridden world where nothing actually belongs to you anymore.
It's Bill who doesn't want other OSes like Solaris, UNIX, Mac, Linux, AIX, BeOS etc., to be able to talk to Windows, in the hope that he'll kill 'em all off and only Windows and MS will be left. The fact is that if other OSes have problems with Windows networks and printing then it's entirely of Windows making (as the EU Commissioners have so recently and expensively pointed out on two occasions). Nobody wanted MS's volumes of uncommented source code, they just wanted documentation of the communication protocols used (which MS, bizarrely, says it just doesn't have)!
It's still a relatively free world (mostly) - so if you really love Windows and MS, why change? Just keep giving them your money and more and more little bits of your freedom - it's yours to give, after all.
If you know Linux is crap, why, don't go near it and tell everyone you meet what a piece of !!!!e it is!
And if you want Linux to be better then contribute code or ideas or time or money.
To get back to where we were; most distros that I know back up the MBR if they change it and let you restore it, usually from a GUI.
Which is more than Windows does.....
Well, if your distro uses YAST (like Control Panel in Windows) it does
"7.6. Uninstalling the Linux Boot Loader
YaST can be used to uninstall the Linux boot loader and restore the MBR to the state prior to the installation of Linux. During the installation, YaST automatically creates a backup copy of the original MBR and restores it on request, overwriting GRUB.
To uninstall GRUB, start the YaST boot loader module (‘System’->‘Boot Loader Configuration’). In the first dialog, select ‘Reset’->‘Restore MBR of Hard Disk’ and exit the dialog with Finish. In the MBR, GRUB is overwritten with the data of the original MBR."
If you install Windows over Linux, Windows will wipe your hard drive and replace your bootloader with no backups and no questions. There no return from a Windows installation!
No-one is forced to use Linux y'know (unlike Windows)! If you don't like it or if you're sure the people who've told you that it's awful and terribly difficult are right then please, be Bill's guest! If you're happy with Windows, Tux isn't bothered!
Bill G. is the only one who wants to force everyone to use his OS and apps. and everything and make sure we all live in an expensive MS supervised DRM-ridden world where nothing actually belongs to you anymore.
It's Bill who doesn't want other OSes like Solaris, UNIX, Mac, Linux, AIX, BeOS etc., to be able to talk to Windows, in the hope that he'll kill 'em all off and only Windows and MS will be left. The fact is that if other OSes have problems with Windows networks and printing then it's entirely of Windows making (as the EU Commissioners have so recently and expensively pointed out on two occasions). Nobody wanted MS's volumes of uncommented source code, they just wanted documentation of the communication protocols used (which MS, bizarrely, says it just doesn't have)!
It's still a relatively free world (mostly) - so if you really love Windows and MS, why change? Just keep giving them your money and more and more little bits of your freedom - it's yours to give, after all.
If you know Linux is crap, why, don't go near it and tell everyone you meet what a piece of !!!!e it is!
And if you want Linux to be better then contribute code or ideas or time or money.
To get back to where we were; most distros that I know back up the MBR if they change it and let you restore it, usually from a GUI.
Which is more than Windows does.....
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Originally Posted by Mac the Knife
Keef, I'd like to believe you're not a troll, but it's getting harder.
I've set up Samba manually lots of times and never had to edit anything but smb.conf
Why do I get this feeling that you're going to say, "Well, I dunno, but Samba didn't work for me until I did it".
I don't know what distro you're using (except that it appears to be Debian based) but several months?
But your experiences seem to verge on the bizarre.
I am very impressed with the way that machine will boot to Windows XP, or Debian (2 different versions - stable and unstable), Fedora, and Suse - all based on a menu at start-up. It also uses the same folders for Thunderbird e-mail in all the Linux versions (I had to do some tweaking to achieve that, but it didn't take long).
The point of my posting was to warn the original poster that while Linux is very capable, it's not a good idea to switch to it without a backup plan for "mission critical" applications - particularly if you don't have a local expert to help fix problems. I still stand by that advice.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: At home
Well now. . . .
It seems that my original question has returned more than I had bargained for and I don't think I'm any further ahead. Perhaps my question should have read "Can I hope to install Linux straight out of the box and have an OS that works as well and as easily as MS?" From what I read I think not.
No matter, you folks have given me a fair insight into using Linux and it seem the scores are fairly even for and against.
Thanks to all for taking the time.
STL
No matter, you folks have given me a fair insight into using Linux and it seem the scores are fairly even for and against.
Thanks to all for taking the time.
STL
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
Likes: 0
From: Rochechouart, France
Funny old world...
On one thread I find myself supporting Microsoft's proprietary NTFS filesystem and on the other I find myself supporting Linux!
Both good OSes IMHO, but with different approaches and philosophies.
And prices of course.....
Well, potential Linux newbies, what can I say except that Keef's terrible and mysterious difficulties are pretty unusual. Most modern Linuxes cope extraordinarily well with the different hardware they encounter and for very many people installation goes smoothly and common things work without further fiddling. To get things really tuned up and zinging you WILL have to poke around the net and ask questions and read a primer, no question. "Some assembly required" as they say.
"Can I hope to install Linux straight out of the box and have an OS that works as well and as easily as MS?"
Probably not, but remember that you're getting the whole katootie for free as opposed to:
Microsoft XP Professional - Upgrade - $199 U.S., Full version - $299 U.S.
Microsoft Office 2003 Student and Teacher Edition - $149.00
Microsoft Office XP 2002 Professional with publisher - $214.95
Microsoft Corporation Microsoft Office Standard Edition ... - $374.95
Finally, many Linux distros have a Live-CD version which boots and runs directly from a CD, so you can try it out and check basic compatibility with your system without affecting your current installation or doing anything to your hard drive. The Live-CDs are slow of course but enough to give you an idea.
Good luck to all of you, Windows and Linux users alike!
PS: Keef, to satisfy my curiosity, could you post the changes you had to make to bootmisc.sh and local.rules (they're in your notebook)?
On one thread I find myself supporting Microsoft's proprietary NTFS filesystem and on the other I find myself supporting Linux!
Both good OSes IMHO, but with different approaches and philosophies.
And prices of course.....
Well, potential Linux newbies, what can I say except that Keef's terrible and mysterious difficulties are pretty unusual. Most modern Linuxes cope extraordinarily well with the different hardware they encounter and for very many people installation goes smoothly and common things work without further fiddling. To get things really tuned up and zinging you WILL have to poke around the net and ask questions and read a primer, no question. "Some assembly required" as they say.
"Can I hope to install Linux straight out of the box and have an OS that works as well and as easily as MS?"
Probably not, but remember that you're getting the whole katootie for free as opposed to:
Microsoft XP Professional - Upgrade - $199 U.S., Full version - $299 U.S.
Microsoft Office 2003 Student and Teacher Edition - $149.00
Microsoft Office XP 2002 Professional with publisher - $214.95
Microsoft Corporation Microsoft Office Standard Edition ... - $374.95
Finally, many Linux distros have a Live-CD version which boots and runs directly from a CD, so you can try it out and check basic compatibility with your system without affecting your current installation or doing anything to your hard drive. The Live-CDs are slow of course but enough to give you an idea.
Good luck to all of you, Windows and Linux users alike!
PS: Keef, to satisfy my curiosity, could you post the changes you had to make to bootmisc.sh and local.rules (they're in your notebook)?
Plastic PPRuNer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,902
Likes: 0
From: Rochechouart, France
Originally Posted by batninth
Beware installing it on your windows PC as most Linux versions overwrite the boot loader with GRUB or LILO which works well but is a tough one to back out of if you ever want to clean Linux off the PC in future
As I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to point out, "backing out" is not "tough" but trivial, providing you can type two lines and press the ENTER key.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Originally Posted by Mac the Knife
PS: Keef, to satisfy my curiosity, could you post the changes you had to make to bootmisc.sh and local.rules (they're in your notebook)?
In bootmisc.sh:
kdesu /usr/bin/sambastart start
In local.rules:
KERNEL=="event[0-9]*", NAME="input/%k"
After the next boot, local.rules vanished, so I don't know what happened to that bit of code. Since it fixed the problem, I didn't worry, either.
Originally Posted by Saw The Light
"Can I hope to install Linux straight out of the box and have an OS that works as well and as easily as MS?" From what I read I think not.
Either way, once it's sorted, performance is far better than MS stuff on the same machine. My recommendation would be to experiment "in your spare time" with an old machine, and see if you can get it to function.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
From: Abroad
I apologise for not really making a useful contribution, but I'd like to mention that I've been using Linux exclusively since 1995, both on my personal PCs and at work. I do find Microsoft operating systems difficult and frustrating to use in the extreme, when I'm confronted with one, so I guess it all boils down to what you're used to. Empirical evidence from those computer users which I've trained from the ground up under Linux would seem to confirm that observation.
I'm not advocating Linux, btw. You can use whatever you want, I'm just saying the original question is a bit of a non-sequitur. Try it, see if you like it, if not find something else, as simple as that really.
I'm not advocating Linux, btw. You can use whatever you want, I'm just saying the original question is a bit of a non-sequitur. Try it, see if you like it, if not find something else, as simple as that really.
Oh Shazbat!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: Leeds, UK
STL - If you are still watching this thread
As you have seen - it isn't really a question about the technical merits of Linux vs Microsoft, or even licencing issues. IT all comes down to your attitude of what you are prepared to count as "straight out of the box", or in my trems "How much I'm prepared to tweak it".
If I can draw an analogy here, I work away from home so often travel out on a Sunday evening and pick up a hire car at the airport. I have used a range of hire cars, but the key for me is being able to take the keys to the Hertz lot, get in the car and after adjusting the seat & mirror, drive it away. By and large that applied to most cars. However one that sticks in my mind is the Fiat Stilo which has a small number of annoyances and forced me to sit in the lot reading the owner manual before I could work out how to switch the lights on & drive away. (By the way - the Grande Punto I had the following week was back to sit in & drive off - much, much better car by miles)
The fact is the Stilo was an OK car, and for me it was slightly annoying having to RTFM to be able to drive away at 1am in the morning. Had that have been my wife for example, then it would have been a more serious matter.
The same applies to Linux v WinXP. WinXp works far more often out of the box, and I would say that Ubuntu 6 comes closest to the same install experience (sorry MTK - openSuse is like the Stilo - good product, just too much RTFM). It's just how do you feel about having to work on it to make it work before you can do work.
It seems that my original question has returned more than I had bargained for and I don't think I'm any further ahead. Perhaps my question should have read "Can I hope to install Linux straight out of the box and have an OS that works as well and as easily as MS?" From what I read I think not.
If I can draw an analogy here, I work away from home so often travel out on a Sunday evening and pick up a hire car at the airport. I have used a range of hire cars, but the key for me is being able to take the keys to the Hertz lot, get in the car and after adjusting the seat & mirror, drive it away. By and large that applied to most cars. However one that sticks in my mind is the Fiat Stilo which has a small number of annoyances and forced me to sit in the lot reading the owner manual before I could work out how to switch the lights on & drive away. (By the way - the Grande Punto I had the following week was back to sit in & drive off - much, much better car by miles)
The fact is the Stilo was an OK car, and for me it was slightly annoying having to RTFM to be able to drive away at 1am in the morning. Had that have been my wife for example, then it would have been a more serious matter.
The same applies to Linux v WinXP. WinXp works far more often out of the box, and I would say that Ubuntu 6 comes closest to the same install experience (sorry MTK - openSuse is like the Stilo - good product, just too much RTFM). It's just how do you feel about having to work on it to make it work before you can do work.
