Mac PC emulator runs very slowly
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
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From: London
Mac PC emulator runs very slowly
A customer has the following configuration:
I am using an Apple Mac G4 using OS 9.2.1
Built in memory 640MB
Virtual Memory 641MB
Largest unused block 341.9MB
Using Virtual PC Version 5.0
Memory being used by Virtual PC is 138 MB (21%)
...and says that the emulator runs like a dog.
His Mac dealer says that everything is set up correctly.
Can anyone (Danny?) suggest what might make the emulator so slow, and what can be done to improve matters?
TIA
W
I am using an Apple Mac G4 using OS 9.2.1
Built in memory 640MB
Virtual Memory 641MB
Largest unused block 341.9MB
Using Virtual PC Version 5.0
Memory being used by Virtual PC is 138 MB (21%)
...and says that the emulator runs like a dog.
His Mac dealer says that everything is set up correctly.
Can anyone (Danny?) suggest what might make the emulator so slow, and what can be done to improve matters?
TIA
W
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Peripatetic
Nothing! I've had a look and every single review I've seen refers to how slow it is. e.g. MacAddict:
"We used a PC diagnostic utility to determine the speed and breed of our emulated PC. On a 600MHz iBook, it translated to a 400MHz Pentium Pro; on a Dual 800MHz G4, it was a raging 530MHz--maybe enough for a game of Scrabble."
"We used a PC diagnostic utility to determine the speed and breed of our emulated PC. On a 600MHz iBook, it translated to a 400MHz Pentium Pro; on a Dual 800MHz G4, it was a raging 530MHz--maybe enough for a game of Scrabble."
aka Capt PPRuNe
Joined: May 1995
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 3
From: UK
Yep, I use it on a 800MHz G4 and it runs slow. I never expected it to be anything else. All I use it for is to test PC browsers when modifying stuff on PPRuNe and to remind me how cr@p most PC operating systems are! 
If he bought it without reading reviews and expects it to blaze along like a real PC then it will be disappointing. If you only want it to run some obscure PC software that doesn't require blindingly fast CPU then it's great.
For most peoples computing requirements of word processor, spreadsheet and internet, you wouldn't need a PC emulator. Almost anything sent to you from a PC can be opened in the equivalent Mac program. Had to reload Windoze 98 once.... never again.
What a pain that was.
If he bought it without reading reviews and expects it to blaze along like a real PC then it will be disappointing. If you only want it to run some obscure PC software that doesn't require blindingly fast CPU then it's great.
For most peoples computing requirements of word processor, spreadsheet and internet, you wouldn't need a PC emulator. Almost anything sent to you from a PC can be opened in the equivalent Mac program. Had to reload Windoze 98 once.... never again.
What a pain that was.
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
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From: London
ORAC
Thank you, I'll forward that to the customer.
Danny
I am disappointed. You wrote to me a little while back
and I had this in mind when I told my customer that I had a friend who would probably be able to help sort it out 
Ah well. I'll just have to pass on amanoffewwords' advice, I guess
Is it still possible to buy a PC card for a Mac, or that now history?
W
Oh, and ORAC, your epithet about knowledge reminds me of something my son said yesterday. If you drop a penny from the Empire State Building it can kill someone on the ground. Imagine what would happen if you dropped a five pound note!
Thank you, I'll forward that to the customer.
Danny
I am disappointed. You wrote to me a little while back
Yes, there are one or two specialist programs such as the flight logging ones you mention that are not available for the Mac OS but so what? All you need is Virtual PC for the Mac and you can run any PC package you already have in a seperate window, including all the 'specialist' ones mentioned.
Ah well. I'll just have to pass on amanoffewwords' advice, I guess
Is it still possible to buy a PC card for a Mac, or that now history?
W
Oh, and ORAC, your epithet about knowledge reminds me of something my son said yesterday. If you drop a penny from the Empire State Building it can kill someone on the ground. Imagine what would happen if you dropped a five pound note!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I run virtual PC 6 (win98 se) on a G4 powerbook with 640mb ram I set the pc memory to 256MB and it runs quite reasonably, I mainly use it for my logbook and word. before i upgraded the memory it ran like a sloth. The advantages of the Mac far outweigh the small disadvantage of using virtual pc.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
All the cards are discontinued, even if you get hold of one, they have processors slower than the present VPC emulation speed. See here.
VPC Helper might help show an improvement in speed.
VPC Helper might help show an improvement in speed.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Joined: May 1995
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 3
From: UK
Sorry, but I fail to see where I ever advocated using a Mac running a PC emulator solely to run PC programmes. Defeats the purpose doesn't it?
All I ever stated was that you can run PC programmes on a Mac if you have the need. If it is your primary need then I think even someone who is a leddite would be able to figure out that it would be better to get a PC in the first place.
For anyone with normal PC needs for internet access, word processing, spreadsheet and graphics then a Mac is by far the better option for functionality, design and practicality. To expect an 'emulator' to somehow run faster than the machine it runs on defeats logic.
Sorry you feel that you have been somehow conned but as I mentioned above, the best reason for running a PC emulator on a Mac is to remind you how utterly pathetic the world of Windoze really is when it comes to operating system design and functionality. No one ever denied that you can get a squillion GHz Pentium Megathumping PC compared to the latest Apple Mac G5 which I believe only claims to be a 2GHz machine. However, I believe that far too many people believe that just because their PC has a Squillion GHz that somehow that in itself means something.
All I ever stated was that you can run PC programmes on a Mac if you have the need. If it is your primary need then I think even someone who is a leddite would be able to figure out that it would be better to get a PC in the first place.
For anyone with normal PC needs for internet access, word processing, spreadsheet and graphics then a Mac is by far the better option for functionality, design and practicality. To expect an 'emulator' to somehow run faster than the machine it runs on defeats logic.
Sorry you feel that you have been somehow conned but as I mentioned above, the best reason for running a PC emulator on a Mac is to remind you how utterly pathetic the world of Windoze really is when it comes to operating system design and functionality. No one ever denied that you can get a squillion GHz Pentium Megathumping PC compared to the latest Apple Mac G5 which I believe only claims to be a 2GHz machine. However, I believe that far too many people believe that just because their PC has a Squillion GHz that somehow that in itself means something.
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
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From: London
Danny
This particular customer is the marketing department of a significant regional performing arts venue. He has a Mac because he perceives (rightly or wrongly) that it is better than a PC for design layout for marketing material. (The rest of the network is PCs).
However he also wishes to get access to the PC-only Box-Office system, and the venue management software (wot we provide) and I suggested that he tries the emulator.
However, what does surprise me is that the review suggested by ORAC says that he should get P400 performance and frankly that would be perfectly adequate; what he actually gets is more akin to treacle (Control Panel takes 2 mins to load).
I do find the combination of
and
a little disingenuous, but we'll let it pass because it doesn't seem worth the candle arguing about.
What would be more interesting would be to pursue hwel's point about the extra memory allocation. Do you (all of you) think that he should up the memory on the G4 to more than 640Mb if he is going top allocate 256 to Virtual PC and still wants to use the G4 for his design work, WP etc?
W
This particular customer is the marketing department of a significant regional performing arts venue. He has a Mac because he perceives (rightly or wrongly) that it is better than a PC for design layout for marketing material. (The rest of the network is PCs).
However he also wishes to get access to the PC-only Box-Office system, and the venue management software (wot we provide) and I suggested that he tries the emulator.
However, what does surprise me is that the review suggested by ORAC says that he should get P400 performance and frankly that would be perfectly adequate; what he actually gets is more akin to treacle (Control Panel takes 2 mins to load).
I do find the combination of
All you need is Virtual PC for the Mac and you can run any PC package you already have in a seperate window
I fail to see where I ever advocated using a Mac running a PC emulator solely to run PC programmes
What would be more interesting would be to pursue hwel's point about the extra memory allocation. Do you (all of you) think that he should up the memory on the G4 to more than 640Mb if he is going top allocate 256 to Virtual PC and still wants to use the G4 for his design work, WP etc?
W
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Peripatetic
Try the VPC helper I linked above and also see here. Where it is recommended that you give it at least 256Mb of RAM and:
"1) Prebind. This helps everything.
2) Put VPC on its own disk if possible. The majority of the slowness is the disk access. Everytime you do something in VPC it goes for the HD. By having it on its own, fast drive, then it will help.
3) Keep the file system as FAT. Going to FAT 32 or especially NTFS will make it run dog slow.
4) Make a second drive for Apps for VPC. Do not install anything but the OS on the main drive. This will keep fragmentation down on the main drive, and will allow for a better virtual system.
5) Try to save the state as often as possible, but close the system down at least once a week."
Regarding the Windows OS, which you don't seem to mention, from here, use either Win95 (not Win98 or Me) or Win2K.
And from the Technical Manual here:
Q: What are the best performance tips for Virtual PC 5?
A: 1. Avoid running other compute-bound applications while you are running Virtual PC.
2. Run Virtual PC in full screen mode.
3. When running multiple Guest OSes simultaneously make sure the background PC's are paused. In the Virtual Preference Settings, the PC Behavior Setting should be set to Pause Other PCs.
4. Make sure you have the appropriate amount of memory assigned to the Guest OS. Refer to your manual for the recommended minimum requirements.
5. In the Settings for your specific Guest OS disable Networking and USB if you are not using them.
Here are all the Microsoft Connectix forums.
"1) Prebind. This helps everything.
2) Put VPC on its own disk if possible. The majority of the slowness is the disk access. Everytime you do something in VPC it goes for the HD. By having it on its own, fast drive, then it will help.
3) Keep the file system as FAT. Going to FAT 32 or especially NTFS will make it run dog slow.
4) Make a second drive for Apps for VPC. Do not install anything but the OS on the main drive. This will keep fragmentation down on the main drive, and will allow for a better virtual system.
5) Try to save the state as often as possible, but close the system down at least once a week."
Regarding the Windows OS, which you don't seem to mention, from here, use either Win95 (not Win98 or Me) or Win2K.
And from the Technical Manual here:
Q: What are the best performance tips for Virtual PC 5?
A: 1. Avoid running other compute-bound applications while you are running Virtual PC.
2. Run Virtual PC in full screen mode.
3. When running multiple Guest OSes simultaneously make sure the background PC's are paused. In the Virtual Preference Settings, the PC Behavior Setting should be set to Pause Other PCs.
4. Make sure you have the appropriate amount of memory assigned to the Guest OS. Refer to your manual for the recommended minimum requirements.
5. In the Settings for your specific Guest OS disable Networking and USB if you are not using them.
Here are all the Microsoft Connectix forums.
Last edited by ORAC; 25th August 2003 at 01:54.
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
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From: London
ORAC
This all sounds incredibly helpful, thank you. I will pass it on and see if he can and will do this stuff. At least he can't say that he's tried everything!
I am really very grateful!
W
This all sounds incredibly helpful, thank you. I will pass it on and see if he can and will do this stuff. At least he can't say that he's tried everything!
I am really very grateful!
W
Guest
Posts: n/a
TCS the reasons for having a mac are thats its totally stable, no blue screen of death, less viruses, fully integrated applications, itunes and its gorgeous to look at. (did I mention Itunes).
wcollins I always think that in general you cant have to much memory. Its quite cheap at the moment as well. Its a good point about pausing the other system thats in the background that helps as well.
wcollins I always think that in general you cant have to much memory. Its quite cheap at the moment as well. Its a good point about pausing the other system thats in the background that helps as well.
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
Hwel,
Since the wide spead release of WinXP there has been very little problems with BSODs for the average PC user. I usually run comps over 1 month straight without rebooting, and no problems what so ever. The only reason I reboot my home computer every two hundred hours is because I am swapping hardware. After running 200 hours without problems, those components are burnt in and little chance of them failing.
Take Care,
Richard
mac are thats its totally stable, no blue screen of death
Take Care,
Richard
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Just a thought.
If your customer has a Win 2K network have you thought of using some kind of terminal services client to connect the Mac to the server to run the appropriate apps.
One small problem though, having just checked you will require OS X to run the free app.
Click Here for info.
And yes I agree with Naples AC Inc. that windows Xp pro runs regularly for me until I need to install hardware or the battery runs out travelling (doh). I too would never install any previous windows versions on my own machines, but sadly am on the lookout for an old Mac to play with you understand...
If your customer has a Win 2K network have you thought of using some kind of terminal services client to connect the Mac to the server to run the appropriate apps.
One small problem though, having just checked you will require OS X to run the free app.
Click Here for info.
And yes I agree with Naples AC Inc. that windows Xp pro runs regularly for me until I need to install hardware or the battery runs out travelling (doh). I too would never install any previous windows versions on my own machines, but sadly am on the lookout for an old Mac to play with you understand...
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
From: London
Even W2k is pretty stable. BSOD was really a phenomenon of the W9x series (which was !!!! and no longer supported).
W2K and WXP don't seem to be as unstable, presumably because they run each application in its own memory space.
I rarely reboot my laptop, preferring to suspend or standby.
I also have seen Macs crash in pretty horrible ways.
But everyone can decide for themselves without any of us feeling that we have to talk others out of their preferences.
FSD
I thought only Citrix (=$$$$$$$$$$) supported TS on the Mac. I'd love to be wrong.
W
W2K and WXP don't seem to be as unstable, presumably because they run each application in its own memory space.
I rarely reboot my laptop, preferring to suspend or standby.
I also have seen Macs crash in pretty horrible ways.
But everyone can decide for themselves without any of us feeling that we have to talk others out of their preferences.
FSD
I thought only Citrix (=$$$$$$$$$$) supported TS on the Mac. I'd love to be wrong.
W
Guest
Posts: n/a
naples glad XP's working for you one of the reasons I switched was stability, now that I'm mac'd up I cant see myself going back. mac's just kinda grab at your soul in a way PC's dont.
Still this isnt sorting Mr collins's problems so I'll shut up now.
Still this isnt sorting Mr collins's problems so I'll shut up now.
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
Hwel,
That is why there are so many different types of computers, because no one computer fits everyone's needs.
Personally I like the extra options with PCs and will not go back to Mac, others like the features Macs offer.
There are no right and wrong answers here. It is 100% personal preference.
Take Care,
Richard
That is why there are so many different types of computers, because no one computer fits everyone's needs.
Personally I like the extra options with PCs and will not go back to Mac, others like the features Macs offer.
There are no right and wrong answers here. It is 100% personal preference.
Take Care,
Richard
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Slam in the Ram.
The Mac isn't emulating Windows - it is running a real genuine, licensed copy.
The emulation is creating a wintel CPU - an old wintel CPU at that and thus based on a structure that is pre gigahertz plus processors.
If the mac's memory is entirely subsumed by pretending to be a CPU, the operating system and program you're trying to run is being mainly done by paging to and from disk.
At some point all of you had had a system config or program where that happened and it's not nice.
Buckets full of memory plus the other advice given is the way to go.
Regards
Rob
The Mac isn't emulating Windows - it is running a real genuine, licensed copy.
The emulation is creating a wintel CPU - an old wintel CPU at that and thus based on a structure that is pre gigahertz plus processors.
If the mac's memory is entirely subsumed by pretending to be a CPU, the operating system and program you're trying to run is being mainly done by paging to and from disk.
At some point all of you had had a system config or program where that happened and it's not nice.
Buckets full of memory plus the other advice given is the way to go.
Regards
Rob