Any advice for ICAO english test?
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ICAO Guidance
Maybe I missed it in the thread, but ICAO has an FAQ document which gives guidance on evaluating proficiency.
ICAO | FLS | FAQs
Rgds
ICAO | FLS | FAQs
Rgds
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You are right about ICAO FAQ, etc...
The problem is ICAO itself, as you know its an Organisation, not an Authority, and as such it can only issue recomendations subjected to local authorities, who ratify them or not or create exemptions. And it is to the local authorities to certify and regulate all issues, in this case you come down to a ANAC level in Brazil! To get a clue how bad it can be, the top positions in this Civil Aviation Agency are not filled by people who are competent or knowledgeable about the issue, but some darlings of the ruling party.
Given the quality of the government elected we cannot expect anything good coming from it 
.
!
The problem is ICAO itself, as you know its an Organisation, not an Authority, and as such it can only issue recomendations subjected to local authorities, who ratify them or not or create exemptions. And it is to the local authorities to certify and regulate all issues, in this case you come down to a ANAC level in Brazil! To get a clue how bad it can be, the top positions in this Civil Aviation Agency are not filled by people who are competent or knowledgeable about the issue, but some darlings of the ruling party.
Given the quality of the government elected we cannot expect anything good coming from it .!
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I agree with you Toffair! And look who is charge of ANAC, a lady who barely has an aviation background the run the circus... Nothing against women, but against of someone not having a decent aviation background who has been in field and experienced our problems and frustrations in the past and present, to make things better... And looks like she's gonna stay in that nice cold office sitting on her leather chair for the next 4-8 years... 
And regarding the ICAO Engl. test I've come to realize that when you take the test in testing centers who are afiliated with anac, the score the give you is the one you will probably end up with, Anac doesn't change anything... interesting uh? They do anything to run away from work I guess. And the testing centers... they keep their business coming! Great vicious circle!
And regarding the ICAO Engl. test I've come to realize that when you take the test in testing centers who are afiliated with anac, the score the give you is the one you will probably end up with, Anac doesn't change anything... interesting uh? They do anything to run away from work I guess. And the testing centers... they keep their business coming! Great vicious circle!
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Yes, I think you are right! You're get the spirit of how things run over here...
Best thing you should do is enjoy your flights the most you can, dont think too much about those hurdles. If you, re in the Amazon, dont miss the oportunity to find an excuse to make a low flight over the Anavilhanas when coming to MAO, its just amazing all those islands and beaches on the Rio Negro...
Best thing you should do is enjoy your flights the most you can, dont think too much about those hurdles. If you, re in the Amazon, dont miss the oportunity to find an excuse to make a low flight over the Anavilhanas when coming to MAO, its just amazing all those islands and beaches on the Rio Negro...
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ATC ICAO level
Bom dia,
I´m coming to Brazil on regular basis and I´m wondering if there is any minimum English skills required for ATC controllers??? Again and again I´m surprised about the low level of english spoken here e.g. GRU appch or CWB. Who is testing ATC? Is it done internally? Are we going down the same road as the chinese do (all are level 6!!! in the cockpit)?
Dear fellow pilots in this lovely country, could you re-consider speaking english with ATC? Would make things safer in terms of situational awarness for the other crews and would train ATC...
Feliz navidad e um boa ano novo from a non native English and non native Brazilian.
I´m coming to Brazil on regular basis and I´m wondering if there is any minimum English skills required for ATC controllers??? Again and again I´m surprised about the low level of english spoken here e.g. GRU appch or CWB. Who is testing ATC? Is it done internally? Are we going down the same road as the chinese do (all are level 6!!! in the cockpit)?
Dear fellow pilots in this lovely country, could you re-consider speaking english with ATC? Would make things safer in terms of situational awarness for the other crews and would train ATC...
Feliz navidad e um boa ano novo from a non native English and non native Brazilian.
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ICAO Doc 9835
Does this help? It's from DOC 9835
5.3 DEMONSTRATION OF PROFICIENCY AT THE EXPERT LEVEL
5.3.1 Language proficiency at “both ends” of a proficiency scale is relatively easy to discern. It is not
difficult to recognize “Expert” or “native” or “native-like” proficiency, and for that reason the assessment at
Level 6 does not necessarily need to be carried out by a language testing specialist. Native speakers of the
language should be considered expert speakers provided they use a dialect or accent that is intelligible to
the aeronautical community. Expert speakers also include multilingual speakers who include the language
as one of their “native” languages, and foreign-language speakers who have acquired Expert proficiency,
through either educational background, extensive work experience in the language, or some other extensive
contact with the language. Recognition of “Expert” proficiency can be based on the documentation of such
experiences, or it can occur during training or as part of the evaluation of training. The person responsible
for documenting “Expert” language proficiency does not need to be a specialist but should be familiar with
the relevant applicable Standards and should be able to recognize when there is a need to refer the
applicant to specialized language testing.
5.3.2 Although the relative facility to assess proficiency at the Expert level allows flexibility in the way
the assessment is made, the demonstration of language proficiency is an element of the formal process that
leads toward the issuance of a pilot or an air traffic controller licence. It is therefore important that each State
establish appropriate procedures and ensure that the results of the assessment are properly documented,
whether done through specialized testing, through the documentation of appropriate experience in the
language, or on the basis of observation of Expert proficiency during training.
Rgds
PS Feliz Natal e um bom Ano Novo
5.3 DEMONSTRATION OF PROFICIENCY AT THE EXPERT LEVEL
5.3.1 Language proficiency at “both ends” of a proficiency scale is relatively easy to discern. It is not
difficult to recognize “Expert” or “native” or “native-like” proficiency, and for that reason the assessment at
Level 6 does not necessarily need to be carried out by a language testing specialist. Native speakers of the
language should be considered expert speakers provided they use a dialect or accent that is intelligible to
the aeronautical community. Expert speakers also include multilingual speakers who include the language
as one of their “native” languages, and foreign-language speakers who have acquired Expert proficiency,
through either educational background, extensive work experience in the language, or some other extensive
contact with the language. Recognition of “Expert” proficiency can be based on the documentation of such
experiences, or it can occur during training or as part of the evaluation of training. The person responsible
for documenting “Expert” language proficiency does not need to be a specialist but should be familiar with
the relevant applicable Standards and should be able to recognize when there is a need to refer the
applicant to specialized language testing.
5.3.2 Although the relative facility to assess proficiency at the Expert level allows flexibility in the way
the assessment is made, the demonstration of language proficiency is an element of the formal process that
leads toward the issuance of a pilot or an air traffic controller licence. It is therefore important that each State
establish appropriate procedures and ensure that the results of the assessment are properly documented,
whether done through specialized testing, through the documentation of appropriate experience in the
language, or on the basis of observation of Expert proficiency during training.
Rgds
PS Feliz Natal e um bom Ano Novo
Last edited by LX-GB1; 10th Dec 2010 at 08:21.
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I´m coming to Brazil on regular basis and I´m wondering if there is any minimum English skills required for ATC controllers??? Again and again I´m surprised about the low level of english spoken here e.g. GRU appch or CWB.
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I try to keep English on the ATC, but more then often get the other side answering or calling me on Portuguese, I guess by the principle of "Brazilian Callsign", should handle this. The worst Controllers are certainly in Rio, arogant and dismotivated to speak English. Many times they seem to ignore your call and get Portuguese speaking AC served first.
@Hurz: You'll be flying to SBEG next as well, right? This way you"ll have to deal with all Brazilian regions... FIR Amazonico may be bad radio quality, but controllers are more used to US traffic...
@Hurz: You'll be flying to SBEG next as well, right? This way you"ll have to deal with all Brazilian regions... FIR Amazonico may be bad radio quality, but controllers are more used to US traffic...
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@soavw: I know the northeast a bit. some years ago i was quite happy that I knew some basic portoguese language skills since I had to do the the whole appch in portugese going into REC. My F/O was completely out of the picture and I had to tell him what ATC just said (ATC was not even able to say yes or no). O.K. this was in the middle of the of the night and the 2nd class contoller was on duty not even having the basic english skills...
@toffair: I appreciate your efforts talking english to the controllers... Why don´t you just reply in english when they try to get to you in portuguese? We, or our companys pay and ATC has to provide the service expected. E.g. going into PNZ with other traffic around at an uncontolled airfield a common language is of utmost importance in order to improve flight safety.
I´m sure that you, the brazilan pilots can do ATC in english. Please start or continue doing so like the greek pilots did 15 years ago. The number of "close calls" reduced dramatically in Greece since everybody could understand each other... In the interst of safety all carriers in Brasil should change their ops manuals to have english the only language used in ATC language.
Ate logo,
HURZ
@toffair: I appreciate your efforts talking english to the controllers... Why don´t you just reply in english when they try to get to you in portuguese? We, or our companys pay and ATC has to provide the service expected. E.g. going into PNZ with other traffic around at an uncontolled airfield a common language is of utmost importance in order to improve flight safety.
I´m sure that you, the brazilan pilots can do ATC in english. Please start or continue doing so like the greek pilots did 15 years ago. The number of "close calls" reduced dramatically in Greece since everybody could understand each other... In the interst of safety all carriers in Brasil should change their ops manuals to have english the only language used in ATC language.
Ate logo,
HURZ
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The problem with speaking Portuguese is also that controllers here can't standardize phonetics, or in the case of Portuguese from Portugal (TAP..) use words that have different meaning, remember when TAP flight landed on the taxiway in GRU? It was the pilots fault at the end but the controller could not help them due to the fact they were not speaking a standardized language to each other...
It's really sad Brazil can't fix this, and make English mandatory on freq, according to ICAO the best Communication quality is in country where English is not native, I think Japan leads, so why can't Brazil do the same?
It's really sad Brazil can't fix this, and make English mandatory on freq, according to ICAO the best Communication quality is in country where English is not native, I think Japan leads, so why can't Brazil do the same?
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@ Hurz: actually this is exactly what I do, to the point we keep a dialog in two different languages. What pisses me off is when they start either ignoring my calls or bypassing. A colleague told me the other day he called in 5 times, switched to the back up frequency and the same situation he called and everyone else was getting answers but him, then he said he was transmitting blind his intentions and sqacked 7600, you cant imagine how quick he got an answer! I think we should use this mean even when its a virtual Lost Com to alert that a congested frequency is actually a lost comm situation.
Other thing is, you have a congested frequency in SP Area, and all flying IFR and they give you nonesense traffic information...
A captain suggested to improve things in aviation in Brazil, instead of bringing in foreign pilots we should substitute ATC with foreign controllers (obviously not French, Spaniards, Greek, etc)
Other thing is, you have a congested frequency in SP Area, and all flying IFR and they give you nonesense traffic information...
A captain suggested to improve things in aviation in Brazil, instead of bringing in foreign pilots we should substitute ATC with foreign controllers (obviously not French, Spaniards, Greek, etc)
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A captain suggested to improve things in aviation in Brazil, instead of bringing in foreign pilots we should substitute ATC with foreign controllers
This is a really good point, it has actually been done before in many places around the world, the problem is that there are no ATC peoples, they are really few compared to how many unemployed pilots there are around the world. How much would they get paid in Brazil? in most places they make more then senior Capts....
TOFF I`m in CH need anything?
This is a really good point, it has actually been done before in many places around the world, the problem is that there are no ATC peoples, they are really few compared to how many unemployed pilots there are around the world. How much would they get paid in Brazil? in most places they make more then senior Capts....
TOFF I`m in CH need anything?
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This is a really good point, it has actually been done before in many places around the world, the problem is that there are no ATC peoples, they are really few compared to how many unemployed pilots there are around the world. How much would they get paid in Brazil? in most places they make more then senior Capts....
The salary is also one reason for the poor showing in English. Whereas most pilots earn at least a living wage and can therefore afford private lessons, controllers generally lack both money and time to do the same. Some time ago I saw the budget allocated for teaching controllers to the minimum English standard and frankly it was utterly ridiculous.
Aviation safety is done on the cheap and the politicians have just voted themselves a 73% pay rise....
TTFN
