Whatever..............if laughing at some old fart that I'm sueing is carrying a monkey on my back so be it.
Funny I find the AO lawsuit anything but.
He's still welcome in my j/s though

There are rumblings at ACPA about sitting down with ALPA again to see if we can't unite against RM. The so called "GS" wheels are in motion again. So I'm trying real hard to imagine the "old farts" or their representatives sitting down across the table from the very same guys who are sueing them, their wives and kids. Oh, well at least they'll be able to put a face on these guys who are doing the sueing if they haven't already done so. Frankly I can't see any solution. So let's just enjoy what salaries we make now cause it's where we're going to be for a long time. But I guess when you're expecting millions out of a lawsuit you don't care about anyone else's salary. Yep. It's all about "ME". RM must just be grinning as he enjoys that fine cognac. Ya Benny I'm sure you're going to take me back in history again to prove ACPA screwed up a long time ago. Same old song and dance.

Bruce. As much as I would love to see some sort of GS, I think it will be an even harder sell this time around. There are a ton of very bitter Jazz pilots that have been PFO'd for no apparent reason other than they work at Jazz. (I know many of them and they are exceptionally good people, very experienced and would all have been great AC employees) Its pretty hard to take when you have 8000hrs +, including alot of Jet, EFIS FMS etc etc experience, and you are turned down in favor of someone who has none of the above, and who has half of the experience level. I'm not bitching, just relaying the feelings in the crew room, as I am one of the lucky ones that managed to get hired at AC. (although I'm frozen at Jazz for a while yet) The obove guys are not going to be very happy ending up behind someone that was just hired 5 months ago. I wish there was a simple way to sort this whole thing out and present a unified front. It would benefit all of us to no end. I guess the hard part is that someone will have to give something up so that we can all get more in the long run. I hate to say it but we may have missed the boat on this one when talks broke down during CCAA. It was the ideal time to come up with some sort of deal. Why the talks broke down is irrelevant at this point. Whats done is done and we are all paying the price now.

bcflyer, you assume its botl for jazz, fine, but don't you think any 10 year plus jazz type would rather try to capture the EMB flying in the next round of negots.

Just playing devils advocate here, but why would I give a rats ass about botl.

The only reason I assumed BOTL is that it is all thats really been offered in the past. I agree that most Jazz pilots don't see that as a viable alternative, especially now that there are 300 or so more guys on the ACPA list. (not positive on the number) I also agree that alot of guys are willing to take their chances and try to get the EMB in the next round of talks. The problem that I see with that idea is that it plays right into RM hands again. I don't pretend to have any answers and I know there are HUGE obstacles between the two groups, but I really feel that if we stopped expending so much energy fighting each other and put it into trying to figure out how to get together in some way, we would all benefit from it in the long run.

couldn't have said it anybetter
cheers

Did the CRA Boys at CDN not take BOTL 1990 date or was I missing something . Rumour has it many of CRA boys are at AC with 1990 date of hire. During 1992 layoff were the AC boys offered BOTL at Air Nova . Or once again did I miss something .

bcflyer.
I know there are those who will tell you the lawsuit has nothing to do with negotiations but here's some food for thought: AC use to hire 40% from the regionals. Regional pilots had a Mickey Mouse interview and basically given a course date within days of the interview. All this was prior to the lawsuit. AC is totally wrong to take it out on those who have nothing to do with the lawsuit but then again they are masters of divide and conquer. Who better to hire than those within your system? Something does'nt add up here. Hey, I could be wrong but I smell a "you screw us we screw you" thing here. I think ACPA may be in on this too. It doesn't make sense but I think that's what they're up to. As for the GS, ACPA is willing to talk only if it helps them in the long run. I can't blame the Jazz guys for being bitter for being turned down. Maybe they should consider the lawsuit being part of the hiring process. SAAAD.

brucelee...check you PM's

What gives, all you Jazz : ex Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air BC, Alliance pilots, and Cdn Regional pilots any rights to seniority at AC? and the Regional / Jazz merge is another whole discussion ! You work for a different company, your lucky you get somewhat of a preference in the interview/hiring process! talk to anybody applying off the street and see if they get preferential treatment!! and don't use the experience level as an excuse, there are plenty of real high time pilots Efis/Fms international experience jet pilots applying that don't make it, BC Flyer if you think 8000hrs on a dash 8 and a regional jet endorsement is a highly experienced pilot, then why are people with multiple jet endorsements/experience getting PFO letters from Jazz ?? There are many other factors involved in the hiring process, talk to any HR dept, just because you think a specefic person is great doesn't mean they will impress the hiring board!

While I'm at it do you remember Inter Canadien? they were wholly owned by Canadian/Cdn Regional what preferencial treatment were they afforded before or after they were abruptly shut down? None, So if youre cup of tea is AC simply apply like everyone else, and let your personal credential talk for you!

Happy landings.

They are not "different companies".

Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air BC, Alliance, Cdn Regional, WERE all Subsidiaries of Air Canada at one time or another.

Here are the current Subsidiaries:

Aeroplan
Air Canada Cargo
Air Canada Ground Handling Services
Air Canada Jazz
Air Canada Jetz
Air Canada Technical Services
Air Canada Vacations

Employees of these companies ALL have status and/or benefits at Air Canada.

The "rights to seniority" you speak of were negotiated as part of the various collective agreements.

Jazz pilots get some nice benefits when they "transfer" to Air Canada.

Inter Canadian was a different story:

At one time their pilots were offered a merge with Canadian Regional but they chose to retain a separate seniority list. The F/A's did decide to have a merged list. When Inter Canadian went under, some F/A's used their seniority to transfer to different bases. The pilots were offered employment at the bottom of the list and some did get hired.

Different
 

The list you included are subsidiaries of ACE. you forgot to list Air Canada Mainline as one as well. I think they refer to it as Air Transportaion Services in the financial reports. Then it would seem both Jazz and the mainline are seperate subsidiaries.

I suppose you have a point. In fact maybe it makes the point that all the subsidiaries are really part of the ONE company.

It also doesn't change the fact that Jazz pilots get "recognition" when they move from the Jazz subsidiary to the Air Canada subsidiary.

Lost in Saigon

I beg to differ with you, I worked at Inter Canadien and none of the pilots were offered a position with CRA, let alone Canadian. I applied to CRA I was current on the ATR and I had to practically beg for an Interview, they said that if I was successful it would be for a position in YYZ , no problem so far. Then the kick in the head came oh yes you would start at the first year salary, have to complete 6 months probation, and get this no company or travel benefits for 6 months. This was probably 1-1 1/2 months before we were shut down.

At the time they were in an expansion phase hiring off the street mostly for the F-28. With a flow through to Canadian. Go figure.

This was the offer by a company that owned 100% of Inter Canadien. We were told this was perfectly legal and we had no rights to any merge or preferrential treatment.

Anyways that's long ago and I'm probably better off now enjoying my current employment, living where I want to be and earning a real decent wage.

Cheers,

The pilots were offered employment at the bottom of the list and some did get hired.

I guess I could have worded it differently....

Inter Candian pilots were given interviews. SOME did get hired. Those that were hired were offered employment at the bottom of the list.

Well I guess they must have lost my address, telephone number and everyone else's I spoke to within a month or so of the shut down.
Because to this day I still don't know of anyone who was interviewed or hired!!!!

Why are you trying to cover up this fact? Also where and from who are you getting your information?

Anyways best of luck to everyone involved in this cut throat business, just remember its a very small world and what goes around comes around.

Cheers,

dss3000, check your pm's.

A friend of mine worked for Air Atlantic. When Air Atlantic went under he got a job at Inter Canadian. When Inter Canadian went under he got a job at Canadian Regional. It was many years ago, but at that time, he told me that others were also interviewed. I don't know exactly how many ex-Inter Canadian were hired at CRA, but I know at least one.

I guess that makes one pilot from Inter Canadien actually not really he was an Air Atlantic guy. What I'm saying is that there certainly was not a mass offer of employment to the IC pilot group. It's possible that a few were hired as I said earlier I still don't know of any except 1 pilot who had a number at CRA he was on a leave of absence, and went back.

And for the seniority merge with CRA I agree that there were discussions way back prior to 1992 0r maybe 1993 and that the Teamsters executive didn't feel it appropiate at the time. I understand that this was a decision they took on their own and never offered the members a vote on it, Go figure! don't know how legal that was!! anyways it was before I joined.

So again your statement is misleading, and not accurate at all.

Cheers,

1) As for Inter Canadian guys going to AC, when IC went under in november 1999, there was approx. 6 or 8 guys who were accepted at AC and they had more than 8 000hrs and a lot of experience
2) Interesting to see that Canadian and AC did not considere IC part of the deal but every employee paid for many years the 10 % deduction on their payslip to Canadian Airlines in YYC to help them out...

Talk about being rob.....Why is it that everyone is against everyone at AC....Groundhandling against the management or pilot..FA against pilots, Pilots against the company , pilots against pilots.....what's all that frustration and anger ???? Every jobs has its downs but like I said previously, stop looking at yourself and start enjoying your work environment and your excellent conditions....Amen to you ladies....:rolleyes:

Hey "transmeridian", what are you talking about?

IC went under before Air Canada bought Canadian. So Air Canada really had nothing to do with IC.

Yes, IC was part of "Canadian". Canadian DID consider IC as "part of the deal" before they went under. The IC flight attendants had a merged seniority list with CRA. The F/A's had jobs with CRA if they wanted them. The IC pilots did not want to have a merged list with CRA so they lost out.

The problem with Air Canada is the upper management. They somehow feel that the best way to manage your employees is to treat them with intimidation, confrontation and distrust. They have been doing it for many years and it is only getting worse.

As dss3000 states, you probably know the only guy from IC (or was he Air Atlantic?????) who benefitted from some kinf of deal with AC, all the others that are with AC now started like everyone else, re BOTL.

The Union Reps are elected by the membership. The membership could have removed their reps if they wanted to.

The IC pilot group:

1) must have agreed with the Union leaders for personal reasons... or...
2) did not care about the implications of not wanting to merge with CRA...or...
3) did not even know about the opportunity to have a merged list.

If you followed the history of Quebecair, Intair, and Inter Canadien, you might see a pattern emerge.

Hi again lost in Saigon

Your latest statements concerning the Inter Canadien pilots is very rude and not called for. We were a small number of experienced Airline pilots who just happen to work for a Carrier based out of Quebec, as you might know there were alot of politics involved around the whole Intair/Inter Quebec/Inter Canadien/CRA take over or merge BS. On top of that trow in Federal/Quebec politics and you end up with a freeking mess. Now as far the membership removing the elected reps I guess this might have been an option. If they knew far enough in advance of their intentions on refusing the offer from CRA.
So please enough arm chair quarterbacking! it didn't happen so now we live with the results.

Now I'm still not sure who you work for, I suspect AC think back in the not so distant past
and tell me about greed, apathy or ignorance!! within any union group trying to get the best deal for their members. So like I said its a small world what goes around comes around.
Lets see what kind of pattern emerges next.

Sorry I came across rude.

I will rephrase what I said......The IC pilot group:

1) must have agreed with the Union leaders for personal reasons... or...
2) did not care about the implications of not wanting to merge with CRA...or...
3) did not even know about the opportunity to have a merged list.

In any case, things happened pretty fast and there was probably not much that could have been done proior to Inter Canadien closing it's dooors.

Lost in Saigon
I see you edited your post today!

The new one is better!

here are the answers to your points!
1-NO
2-NO
3-YES

And yes they did close it down rapidly,
no hard feelings. Except they owe me about $42,000.00 plus interest. LOL!

Cheers,

[QUOTE=bcflyer;2859331]The obove guys are not going to be very happy ending up behind someone that was just hired 5 months ago.[QUOTE]

Tough !!!!!

As an off the street new hire at AC comments like that piss me off.

Every Jazz pilot made the CHOICE to be there. I made the choice to NOT go there, as I didn't want to wait 2 years for AC. No one forced them to apply at Jazz, and no one certainly forced them to accept the position.

They are 2 separate companies, with the same parent. Why should I suffer because somebody decided to go to Jazz but now wants to come over to mainline?

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: ...do you ladies ever give up?




...bitches:}

Rookie wrote:
They are 2 separate companies, with the same parent. Why should I suffer because somebody decided to go to Jazz but now wants to come over to mainline?

Pay attention rookie, Milton's about to play whipsaw with the two pilot groups (aka 2 billion) real soon, not a great time to be on the bottom of a seniority list is it.

Not sure I understand how you can corellate the share holder payout to being on the bottom of a list.

Within two years Milton, Brewer, Deutsch Bank, and the rest of the big money players will have pillaged the flag carrier for all they can, leaving the employees, small shareholders, and small creditors holding the bag.

One hopes that your ACPA lawsuit is successful.

Hi all ...
As a former ICN pilot ( YUL - based ), I think I need to weigh in on this topic. It was a fact that everyone at ICN gave up their 10% to CDN as part of their part in saving CDN ( I have the old pay stubs to prove it ). I know of only a couple of guys who got hired at Air Alliance on the B1900, nobody at Air Nova and no one at Air Ontario. I had an interview but no sim.
Its unfortunate that it had to close ( alot of good people there ) and I , as well as others, have moved on to other jobs ( me - EK B777 ) but I will always feel that we as a pilot group we got royally shafted out of that whole merger.

Hope all is well in Canada

day 452 - no clouds, no rain in DXB

fb519

Rookie, I'm not trying to sound condesending here, but Milton is fasttracking the company back into bankruptcy if he gets his way with the shareholders, if we are not a united group you can rest assured that Jazz will be bidding on your job in the next 24-36 months.

I see Milton is having a real effect on some. That statement comes right out of RM's play book. Frankly I'm sick and tired of threats. Threats that come from Milton and ALPA and all the other heroes of the industry. The united group you want will "open the gates of seniority" at AC yet again. Sorry we have no appetite for that. No now not ever. You got the RJ's, we got the Emb's. You 'll get the Emb's we'll get more 787's. Get the hint? Bring it on, it's all good. The threats will continue. Bla, Bla, Bla. Here's my suggestion "Rookie", relax, enjoy your carreer,

Miltons effect is having acpa going to court to block the 2billion payback, it seems to be having more of an effect on your union than anyone else.
"youll get the emb's" thats my point.

Yep, you're gonna look pretty good in that tripple 7. What'll it be? Dash 8 rates? Or are you going all out at RJ rates? And heck, at the rates us mainliner's get, we won't even get the emb's, GGN will get those, right? So after you win the lawsuit and take our jobs, we'll just sail off into the sunset. OK.

Question
 

Just curious...

What is the success rate for Mainline applicants being hired at Jazz?
ie: For the mainline pilots that wish to crossover, what are the stumbling blocks during the interview process? Are as many mainline guys blowing their process at Jazz as the Jazz guys are at mainline....since we're talking likes with likes.

Thanks in advance.

If i understand your question, i don't think there are any AC Mainline pilots applying to Jazz. A number of AC mainline have come out to the sandbox though. Cheers.