Swoop
 

From another forum, I am taking the liberty of pasting someone else's comment here so anyone looking to come here from an expat position has a better understanding of what is going on at the moment. I felt this was well written and explains the situation very well without any emotional language attached.

Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

#1 Post by Oldcommercialpilot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:26 pm

I just wanted to post some frank information about the reality of Swoop Airlines for any young pilots weighing this as a career move. I am clearly against Swoop and what it represents to the aviation profession in Canada so I fully acknowledge that I am writing this from a biased point of view. However, ask ANY pilot at WestJet or Air Canada, and they will likely tell you that the following is accurate:

Career Progression - Swoop is not WetJet. There is not and never will be any form of flow-through agreement from Swoop to WestJet. In fact, between the ALPA hiring ban and the fact that nearly every WJ pilot feels this is an attack on the profession I would say it would most certainly hurt your chances of going to WestJet In the future. Even if you somehow managed to get on with WJ the working environment would be toxic and I most certainly would not want to be an ex-Swoop pilot going into any training/check-ride event with a WJ captain & instructor. Would you really want that looming over your head for your entire career?

Uncertainty - WJ has launched an Unfair Labour Practices complaint against ALPA. ALPA will likely do the same in the coming weeks. Then there is the almost-certain filing of Common Employer status, etc. In other words, this is about to get very messy for a very long time and there is no telling how this is going to play out after the courts/arbitrators/CIRB are done. I'm curious what Swoop is even telling their applicants in the interviews. I'm not entirely sure how they can even hire any pilots without knowing if they are legally allowed to circumvent their Union and hire from outside. Picture this... Today you are hired and are pilot #1 on the Swoop list. Months from now a CIRB ruling comes down in ALPAs favour and WJ must amalgamate the pilot lists. So... You go from Captain #1 to pilot #2500 and are now below the lowest FO on the Dash-8 at Encore.

ALPA hiring ban - For those of you who aren't aware, ALPA has issued an international hiring ban against Swoop as they are arguing that it is WestJet's attempt to circumvent the Union and cut labour costs. What this means is that ALPA is asking airlines & their unions to refuse to hire any pilot that has previously worked for Swoop.

I fully acknowledge that Unions don't hire pilots, companies do so this ban is more symbolic than anything. But... The reality is that breaking this ban is thumbing your nose at ALPA and at pilot solidarity in general - not just in Canada but worldwide. While companies may do the hiring, it is pilots that generally make up the majority of the interview panel as well as the training departments of these airlines. Do you really think this hiring ban is going to be entirely overlooked come interview time? Would you bet your career on it?

So what is your best-case scenario at Swoop?
You get hired, get a fairly quick upgrade, and move on to somewhere else before you top out at Step 3 pay? Well, you better hope you make it through the AC interview first time around because WJ is no longer an option for you. Did I mention that the Air Canada Pilots Association has issued a letter of support in regards to the hiring ban at Swoop?

The reality of WestJet - Even if there was flow-through from Swoop, WJ is not the same as it was a decade ago. 10-15 years ago WJ was the best airline job in Canada - hands down. Today, I would argue it is the worst airline job in terms of career progression, morale, and labour relations. If you were to get hired today at WestJet, you are likely looking at 5 years plus at Encore. Then you get to move to the right seat of the Jet in whichever base happens to be available for you and then move to that base - at your own expense all while taking a pay cut so you can start back at Year 1 FO pay. Then you can rot away in the right seat for about a decade or so before you are offered an upgrade, again, in whichever base happens to be available and you can once again move at your own expense across the country to start again at Year 1 Captain pay. So... in today's environment of global expansion and pilot shortages if you went to WJ - you can expect to put in a whopping 27 years with the company before you ever see the top pay scale as a captain. Depressed yet? A friend on the top WJ captain scale recently showed me a copy of his first pay stub of 2018. After taxes, ESP deductions, etc. it was a whopping $2100. So after putting in a 27 year career you can look forward to pulling in a little over 2 grand per pay cheque. By the way... These numbers are all based on WestJet BEFORE Swoop takes flight. After Swoop you can probably expect Flow, Hiring and Upgrades at WJ to slow to a trickle so you can likely double those expected upgrade times. As far as the $2100 pay cheque ... Good luck ever negotiating any kind of pay raise in the future once you have an airline in house flying the same airplanes for less money. Dont expect wages to improve.

In today's aviation world where we are just on the very cusp of a worldwide pilot shortage why would anyone in their right mind even consider such a career-limiting move? Let's face it - no one's career goal is to fly a jam-packed 737 painted pink for an Ultra-Low-Cost Airline with minimal benefits and for 40% less than the going rate. If you are even considering this as a stepping-stone to land you that next great job I would urge you to walk down the street to Sunwing, Flair, or any other of the multitude of airline jobs offering comparable positions for equal or better pay.

Air Canada is growing rapidly and experiencing unprecedented retirements - hiring hundreds of pilots per year for the forseable future. They have a long track record of hiring pilots without jet experience. Great benefits, new airplanes, pension, best pay in Canada, quick upgrades, and best of all... Years of Service -based pay meaning that when you upgrade after 5 years you will move directly over the Year 5 captain pay unlike WJ where you will start at Step 1 and have to work your way up. This equates to millions of dollars in total career earnings.

Do you really want to work for an airline that has such lack of respect for its employees that it's attempting to circumvent them entirely by subcontracting their jobs out for 40% less. Trust me... You do not.

Timing is everything in this business - both good ... and bad. This one's going to get very interesting.

If the possibilities at Air Canada are so great then why is the poster concerned anyone would be tempted by this Swoop?

Sounds like simple self-interest of his career progression at WestJet to me. Fair enough, but he can't expect anyone else to care.

Like the pay and conditions? Work there.

Don't like the pay and conditions? Don't work there.

This is labour relations 101 for the new millennia, thank heaven. Unions are so 20th century.

“Like the pay and conditions? Work there.

Don't like the pay and conditions? Don't work there.

This is labour relations 101 for the new millennia, thank heaven. Unions are so 20th century.”

Thanks, I almost spit my beer out. So where do you think your current conditions came from, generous, benevolent employers I guess?.

The very short version of this:

The company is moving 10 tails from it's mainline to a new start up just after the pilots unionized. It's clearly an attempt at union busting as the wages offered to the "new" pilots are roughly 50% of the current wages paid. No contract has been negotiated with the pilot group yet. The rhetoric is ramping up as the executives of the company have now stated that 10 tails will become 40-50 tails. The model the company touts as a success is that of JetStar.

Wages aren't that great in Canada to begin with because there has been a pilot surplus in this country for over 30 years (where else would you see 10,000 hour first officers in a B-737?). We are finally catching up with the rest of the world on the pilot shortage and would like to see some wage increases.

Cheers

MOSTLY HARMLESS said.......

A friend on the top WJ captain scale recently showed me a copy of his first pay stub of 2018. After taxes, ESP deductions, etc. it was a whopping $2100. So after putting in a 27 year career you can look forward to pulling in a little over 2 grand per pay cheque.

You're suggesting that Swoop will pay 50% less than this? I've seen the pay scales, and I don't see how it's possible (even in the high tax regime that is Canada) that you'll only end up with $1,050 per month. I don't dispute that the pay will be less, neither do I think it advances the argument to overdramatize the facts. You've also detailed the long road to the "top" in Westjet, so clearly some will see this as a shortcut to some decent money, and will no doubt fill the seats.

It is a fact that the management will attempt to keep the cost base in the new airline low. It is after all a ULCC model. Some of that savings will come at the expense of the employees (pilots included), and some will come at the expense of the passengers, who will be crammed in with an unbearable seat pitch, and will have to endure being nicked and dimed for things now considered basic.

Citing Jetstar as a success that they aim to duplicate is a bit strange. Absolutely, they were set up as a union buster, but I don't think they are ULCC - stand to be corrected. There are many other full service airlines that attempted to house a lower cost model within the same group that failed. They have proven, more often than not, to be a cancer to the mainline. And, if they really wanted to pick an analogy that the Canadian passenger/shareholder/investor could relate to, then why not cite Rouge?

Around 50% or Gross (pretax) income. It will not work out to 50% of Net. It's not over dramatizing. It is what is offered.

Clarification
 

Townie,

Just for info. In Canada, you get paid twice/month. That may help clarify things a bit.

Just to add to the fun...

WestJet CEO says it hopes to recruit Swoop pilots from mainline operations | Financial Post

The 'Boys' have big plans. The worst thing ever done was unionize...been there, done that! It won't get any better for WJ as the snowball has begun to roll down the slope.

Swoop (Canada) plans to expand outside of Canada in 2018 and could grow to a fleet of as many as 30 to 40 aircraft, subject to regulatory approval. First flight on track from June 2018 with three B737-800s, expanding to six aircraft flying by September and all 10 by spring 2019.

And according to CBC ALPA International has filed an unfair labour complaint against WestJet and also requested help in resolving it's first contract with WestJet.
WestJet pilots' union files complaint over recruitment for new low-cost airline - Calgary - CBC News

going around social media...

One wonders whether Swoop will have similar legs to, dare I say it, Air Canada Tango and/or Zip?

IIRC, Tango had 15 to 20 aircraft and I don't know about Zip. I'm not well versed in the internal decisions Big Red took to launch the two airlines, but they certainly didn't last long (granted, 9/11 played a part as I think they started flying in and around the same time).

A ULCC is a great idea for passengers where either distance (Europe) or passenger numbers (United States) are not a factor. I've never been certain that a ULCC can be profitable in Canada given the relatively longer sector distances and the low population base.

As an example, CDG to SVO is almost 500 miles shorter than YXX to YHM. It overflies seven different countries (depending on the route) and more importantly overflies nearly 400 million people. YXX to YHM overflies one country with 36 million people. A similar distanced sector in the US overflies 323 million people.

The scales are not tipped favourably in Canada for a ULCC. But maybe that's why I drive the airplanes instead of managing the airline.

This looks like it could get ugly depending on how determined the WestJet pilots are.

Is it realistic to expect the Canada Industrial Relations Board to actually do anything ?

Is scope not a factor in airline pilot contracts up there ?

Union posturing and intimidation tactics like threatening those who choose from the limited career options in Canada to make the decision to join bottom line carriers like Swoop amounts to nothing more than a group of professional pilots trying to bully anyone thinking of joining. Such attitudes won’t help improve the situation or ease any future pilot shortage or encourage those who would like to make aviation a career.

It seems reasoned minds can’t find a purpose beyond salary and seniority.

Why would anyone even think of becoming a pilot in Canada?

Let’s wait to see if these unionized pilots speak up when it becomes necessary to hire foreign pilots. Maybe then reasoned minds will wake up and accept some responsibility for their contribution.

I doubt it.
Willie

Just to clarify the sequence of events:

1) The company announced it was starting a ULCC. Under the existing non-union employee agreement, pilots for the ULCC would have to have been taken first from the ranks of the combined WJ and WJE (Encore) pilot list.

2) Later that same day, ALPA announced it would seek to certify the WJ pilots.

3) ALPA's position is that only WJ pilots should fly the ULCC planes, at WJ rates (no mention of WJE pilots).

Swoop offers a way to feed yourself.

Is this important to you? Work there.

This is not important to you? Don't work there.

Any further extrapolation of the issues is anachronistic twaddle. Union tish tosh and fiddle faddle ended in the Reagan era - for which the bulk of society is truly grateful.

Here endeth the lesson.

WestJet and the WestJet pilots would not be in this position had WestJet taken heed when the first union vote failed by a very small margin.

Had the executive turned around, wiped their brow, said "that was too close for comfort," and worked with their pilots, I have a very, very strong feeling the vote would not have succeeded the second time around 6 months later. Hell, it probably would not have even happened.

While I won't say that Encore voted to unionize because WestJet did, it certainly went to the vote for that reason.

I don't think it would have taken any more than sitting down with the WJPA, telling the pilots the executive screwed up and working on a plan. Very small concessions given to the pilots between the first and second vote would have been enough to stop this whole mess. Sometimes all you need is a little foreplay to keep a marriage happy.

1) Better schedules? Let's do it.
2) Years of Service and Trip Rigs? Let's talk once the schedules are fixed, but bring us an outline of what you'd like to see.
3) Equal pay for Swoop? Let's negotiate.
4) 90% median for Encore? Yeah, let's make sure we're focused on making sure that happens.

Now, the idea spewed on AvCanada about the WestJet and Encore pilots turning in their ALPA cards and going back to the WJPA is akin to a bruised wife going back to her a**hole husband. The husband will think he is in the right and will beat his wife harder than before when words are spoken.

All the parties involved made their beds, and now they have to sleep in them, for better or worse.

In my mind, this is exactly what GS (GGG, the Tan Man, whatever we're going to call him here on PPRuNe) wanted. There is talk he will be fired for being the first CEO at WJ to bring in a union. It would surprise me none to find out he's about to get a nice little boost to his pay. The best WJ pilots can hope for is that it's all in stock options.

Do I hear Work to Rule?

That's hysterical. Ronald Reagan did more to advance the cause of unionism than any national leader in history. His ego powerplay cost the industry billions at a time when it could least afford it.

WestJet says Swoop still headed for June takeoff despite issues with union - Calgary - CBC News


According to CBC the WestJet Pilots union won the complaint against WestJet. Will be interesting to see what WestJet does given this ruling.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theg...ticle38247007/

Even more interesting considering that Gregg Saretzky is “retiring” effective immediately.

Dark days ahead for the WJ stock price as this is far too much uncertainty, but maybe clearer skies for the employee group.

Hello everyone .
Can anyone tell me what would be the salary of captain in swoop. Thank you

It's 103 or 105$/hour, minimum guaranteed is 75h/month. That's for the first year, then it goes up every year.

Is this for a captain's position on a B737?

If it is, at less than $100K a year it's a total farce!

$103/hour is accurate. There are only 2 pay increases after that so far, for a total pay scale of 3 steps.

Is that for FO’s ? That’s half of what I make on a 737 now....on the left seat...

Captain..Swoop...........Sunwing (2017*)....Transat (narrowbody)

Step 1 - $103.57.........$103.57.............$103.57
Step 2 - $119.50.........$119.50.............$119.50
Step 3 - $131.46.........$131.46.............$131.46

Are you saying that an Air Transat B737 captain makes the same money as the captain at Swoop?

I've been out of the business for over two years now, but from what I hear and perhaps stating the obvious, there appears to be an important shortage of airplane drivers in canada, let alone moderately experienced ones.

So, how is Swoop going to crew both the left seat and the right seat?

Yes. That's what he is saying.

ALPA set the 737NG bar low when they negotiated the Air TransAT contract. Swoop met that bar.

Thanks ALPA!

Find that very odd that AT pilots accepted this and I’ll check with some pilots I know that fly there.

In any case they are dumping the 737 and going with all new Airbus Neos.

I can't believe those salaries. That's what 737 pilots got thirty years ago in Canada. The rest of the world is paying around $300 plus all the extras. The pilot shortage can’t come soon enough or bite hard enough.

I left the industry back in 2002. As much as I love flying, I don't regret walking away. There's no way I could raise a family on a pilot's salary.

A little off topic, but at the end of the day, my observations will come full circle to the swoop phenomena.

The previous poster indicated that he left the business because pilot salaries were low. I agree that pilot salaries should be better, there is a skill set that needs to be properly compensated.

Having said that...........

Unless you are a doctor, lawyer, top level computer programmer, university professor, a specialist engineer in any field, not just the run of the mill engineer, successful artist, not the run of the mill kind, you will not attain the income levels that everybody in the aviation business thinks are a commonplace situation.

I'll say it again, pilots deserve a higher income level, but you will be negatively surprised at the other income levels out there in society. Been there, out of work looking for anything, and salaries are depressingly low. Even for high skilled jobs.

This is just a reality check, everyone thinks that the grass is greener on the other side. It Isn't.

Back to things like swoop.......the hiring people don't make a whole lot of money, contrary to popular belief, so....they naturally and unfortunately are not sympathetic to paying the big bucks to what they perceive as skilled ''bus drivers''.

The big guys rake in the money, rank and file employees do not. Even if you are a pilot.

Bottom line...........pilot salaries are marginally just OK, and they should be better, but everyone around you in society makes not even a quarter of the typical pilot salary. It's a tough battle, life is not so nice out on the street.

You might need to get out more. Where I work a 737 captain makes 300- 360K. F/O pay is around 2/3 of that. Six weeks paid leave.

In the US their legacy pay is even higher with a lower cost of living. And I read that Canadians may soon be able to get a visa to at least work at a regional.

There is a developing shortage of pilots in the world. I would never advocate becoming an expat, but it can be an effective way to claw your way back to what we used to call the upper middle class.

No airline in Canada or the USA pays a 737 captain $300-360K a year.

IIRC, unless the pay scale at Air Canada changed, the most senior captains on the B777 make less than $300K base salary and Airbus 320 type captains make around $200K.

I don't reside in North America, hence my mention of becoming an expat.

I was told (but did not verify) that a SW captain (friend of a friend) made $406 last year.

Wrt to 360 K...

To balance: pretty expensive country, crap staff travel compared to the North American standard.

We have F/Os on A380 making north of $300...hell, a high time S/O did $280.

Company made record profits last year, btw.

No disrespect but none of the pay scales I have seen for Southwest Airlines suggest anything close to what you are suggesting. Of course I may be wrong or my info out of date.

In fact both Delta's and United's 12 year pay scale for captains on the B737 pay better than Southwest by $12K to $14K a year.

In the case of United on his 12th year a captain will make about $219K and at Delta about $217K that is for their base salary, no overtime included and certainly no per diem which shouldn't be counted for a salary.

If you want to compare apples with apples then only the base salary counts all other benefits are "extras".

BTW, the figure I get for Southwest is $214.45/hour for a 12 year captain.

The captain flying the Airbus 350 at United on the 12th year scale make just under $285K.

I'll say it again, I support good pay.

I guess that I am of the old group where half of my flying days were pre 9/11 and half were post 9/11. Pre 9/11 salaries were ever so slowly going up from an already not so good level, but attained nowhere near the type of incomes that are being advertised. Not even in the expat market; I was an expat for a short time and, why would Australians, Brits, Swiss, French, and so on, let alone Canadians, go expat if salaries were so high at home? Then 9/11 happened and you guessed it, everything took a nosedive, expat market included. And that was IF you could find a job. My particular canadian heavy jet operator closed up, making headline news, stuck around home for family related reasons, but was well aware of pay levels at the big name expat airlines that everyone tended to flock to. Good pay, sort of, but nowhere near fantastic. One well known Asian operator who had the reputation of paying the big bucks were now paying pretty average to low bucks. You know who I am referring to.

However, there are admittedly some choice jobs out there; I'm thinking about my good friend who works for American that does in fact make 300K as a 737 Captain, bear in mind though that it is after numerous decades and at the top of the pay scale, plus the pay raises are a recent event. Did not happen overnight.

If you make 300K anywhere in Canada, you are of a very select group, very very few people make that. Outside of aviation cockpits, even fewer come near to those types of incomes.

Nice to see that things are on a huge upswing though, wish I was born later LOL!