Enerjet conditions
 

Saw Enerjet doing alot of PR. Does anyone know what the pay is for Captains and FO's? How many planes are they looking to have? Is there a profit sharing scheme? Is the only base Calgary or are they planning to have other ones? Thanks for any info.

Check avcanada.ca, its a popular canadian aviation forum.

Thanks ODGuy checked it out, but there still remains the question of what the pay is? Seems they are not taking Captains but FO/Co Captain till they add more aircrafts. The Captains they have now are all past Westjet coming in with the same salary. If you will excuse my ignorance what is Westjet paying senior guys? What is Enerjet paying FO's?

It would be interesting to know why a WJ Captain would leave the security of WJ for a startup (with one aircraft) in light of economic downturn which only increases the potential for a startup failure?

I'm guessing they believe in lightning striking the same spot twice.

I got the impression from a friend who is LHS at WJ, that it was a few of the early guys from WJ who are going to EJ. They're already wealthy from their ride at WJ, and want to be in on the ground floor again...

Interesting. :ok:

Any word from anyone about wages there? Ballpark? Skippers on 75k? 85k? 100k?

I think they're gonna make a go of it and are carrying that mentality forward that made WJ great before they became a high cost carrier.

WJ a high cost carrier? Compared to what?

:confused:

Hey, a great company compared to AC and american carriers. BUT they abandoned their low cost structure with entry into the world's most expensive airport (YYZ) and other major airports, going toe to toe with AC. As a pax, check out their ticket costs, on par or more than AC in a lot of cases now, not many deals flying around anymore.

They are a major now and will be under attack by smaller co's that go back to the basic model with reduced costs, a la Enerjet. If you dispute that, your disputing what made WJ so successful in the first place.

I guess I should've said high"er" cost carrier, than it used to be. Apologies.

Trying to get back on track here so I'll try again. Does anyone know about the terms and conditions at this new startup? Thanks

I think you are mixing up the concept.

Being a "low cost carrier" refers to the COST structure, not the FARE structure.

Any airline can be a "low fare" airline. The moment a marketing department at a legacy airline decides to match fares of a LCC, it becomes a "low fare" airline. The results speak for themselves.

If you recall, every sched airline in Canada that has tried to match WJ's FARES since 1996 has failed/collapsed/merged/voluntarily shutdown and then failed, (CanJet1 , CanJet2, Vistajet, Royal, C3000, JetsGo, Canadian, Roots, Harmony, Greyhound etc), or has had to go into CCAA. There have been NO exceptions.

As it stands today, even with leather seats, live TV and operations into YYZ, Westjet's costs to fly a seat a mile, standardized to a 900 mile average flight length remain about 40% below anyone they compete with.

The other proof is in the pudding. No one makes the kind of margins Westjet makes in Canada. No one is even close. That is why they keep on expanding and expanding, which continues to drive down their fixed cost base, causing the cost gap to get wider and wider and wider.

:ok:

You MUST be joking, or I think you have NO concept. Please tell me you are not saying that Westjet had ANYTHING at all to do with the demise of Canadian or C3000...

You sir, are a little misled.

Hi folks, thought I would have a look at enerjet's website (www.enerjet.ca) - looks good. But something bothers me about a company that states they are a B737-700NG operators - yet their main center piece looks like a B767 with winglets !!

I have seen the B757 conversion - not the B767.:rolleyes:

nalid,

just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A quick search on google and voila. Aviation Partners Boeing supplies B767-300ER with winglets since July this year.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.co....28_AAJuly.pdf

Thanks for that - I have heard of the B757 conversion as I said, cool that it can go on the B767.

But I guess my main point is 'Does Enerjet operate the B767' or are they messing with photos?

Quite unprofessional if they can't manage to get the correct aircraft on their own website!

I don't think it's that serious an oversight, as I am sure many on here had to take a very careful look before realizing it wasn't a 737NG. I know I did. That's really immaterial, especially since one "Bus" looks pretty much like another these days.

More importantly, I'd like to know if anyone reading this has had a call from them and if they've only restricted themselves to contacting NG-typed candidates.

Thanks

WJ completely undermined yields / revenues in Western Canada, the only area Canadi>n had been consistently profitable prior to 1996, and whose profits underwrote the money losing operations in central and eastern Canada + transborder, Latin America and pretty much everywhere else.

If you recall, $350 fares got slashed to $59 on Alberta-BC and Alberta Saskatchewan, $250 fares got cut to $29 on intra-Alberta and $450 fares from Alberta to Manitoba dropped to $79.

Revenues completely collapsed as Canadi>n had no choice but to match fares on all of its western capacity to stay competitive with WJ's small, but rapidly expanding capacity. Any let would have caused WJ to have expanded even faster than they already had.

No one likes to admit they got spanked in front of the hometown crowd,, but that's precisely what happened.

As for C3000, Lecky and Kinnear became obsessed with WJ's growth and profitability and the huge wealth that was created when WJ went public. As you recall, C3000 had been stagnant for years with 8-11 aircraft. They wanted a piece of the action to compete with WJ for the #2 airline after Canadian went banco and who's carcass was bought up by AC.

Lecky and Kinnear engineered the buyout of CJ and Royal and tried to cobble together something that could compete with WJ. The over expansion failed miserably, with 9/11 and Tango not helping the cause, though WJ had to deal with 9/11 and Tango at the same time, and remained profitable and growing at 30% rates.

It is not a coincidence that WJ has done what it's done over the past 13 years and left a trail of shutdowns, failed mergers and CCAA filings for virtually every other sched carrier of any consequence in it's wake.

Anyone considering a career as a commercial pilot or thinking about relocating back to Canada should pay attention to the big picture if they want a long lasting career with an airline in Canada, because history typically repeats itself.

The prospect of the three best run, most profitable, fastest growing, most cash rich airlines in North America, Volaris, Southwest and WestJet, hooking up will make the prospects of sched success in Canada for anyone else appearing on the scene to be very daunting, unless they can dramatically lower their costs to a level at least 25% lower than WJ's.

I can't see that happening. Can you?

:)

Hello 'Bean/Realitychex/Speedboat'.

Speedboat, you're hilarious...West jet can do alot, but you can't just re-write history!

What are you smoking??!?

" Revenues completely collapsed as Canadi>n had no choice but to match fares on all of its western capacity to stay competitive with WJ's small, but rapidly expanding capacity. Any let would have caused WJ to have expanded even faster than they already had"

Wrong. Westjet had THREE aircraft in 1996, and Canadian's problems go back 20 years of competing with Air Canada...when Canadian was purchased by Air Canada, they had never officially ceased operation, and had a competing bid to be bought by Onex..Canadian and Air Canada were running half empty aircraft against each other for years before Westjet came to be. I don't care how fast Westjet expanded, they didn't have enough capacity to put Canadian out of business...they were barely a factor against an INTERNATIONAL airline....

Canadian's most profitable route was Asia, this was always the case....Why do you think Air Canada wanted those routes / rights so bad? The Asia economic downturn of 1998 had a DEVASTATING effect on Canadian's bottom line...(about the time Westjet added places like Abbotsford and Thunder Bay!)

Also, in its last few years of operation, at a bad time, Canadian Airlines extended its international route network even more in Asia, with expansion of service to Malaysia and the Philippines. At that time Canadian Airlines had the distinction of flying to more places in Asia, more often, than any other Canadian carrier.

Yeah, but it was Westjet. With their 3 planes that put the nail in the coffin!!!

You should recognize the management problems and history of mergers and competition with Air Canada, rather than spew garbage...Canadian aviation can be interesting, and we can all learn from it, as long as we don't make @$@#$ up!

As for C3000, I don't want to go there, but I think you have to respect other factors as well...like LeBlanc's crappy deal he gave on Royal was a huge factor...C3's plan was to eliminate / own Royal at any cost, and it cost them huge! Westjet wasn't as much of a factor as you state! Alot of Westjet's expansion success was rising from the ashes of 9/11, as it was 9/11 that pushed C3 over the edge...Its like your time line is all screwed up..

You can't just give Westjet all the credit for the failure of other airlines, its overly simplistic and pompous...You should, in my opinion, observe and appreciate the success of Westjet without losing sight of the big picture...

As Westjet expands, it has done an impressive job of maintaining its cost structure. However, they could never offer the same fares now as they did in their infancy, and Air Canada has also done an impressive job of keeping the pressure on...Re-inventing their cost structure even WITH all their legacy headaches...Last few times I booked AC, they were cheaper!!!!

So I wish Westjet luck as well...Maybe they'll take over the world next, and put some of the really big players out of business!

Smoke another one! Back to Enerjet! I wish them luck...

Later

Westjet started out with a good concept. Unfortunately for them however, they have abandoned all of the pillars that made them successful. Live TV, leather seats, brand new airplanes, commercial agreements with other carriers, expensive reservation systems, etc. These are all things that Westjet proudly took no part in. By avoiding these frills, they really were able to offer fares for less than $100 between YVR-YYC-YEG-YWG etc. They really did give birth to a whole new breed of air traveller in Canada which contrary to popular belief, was a benefit to the entire industry. Unfortunately for them however, they have deviated from their initial plan, and set forth the catalyst to their own demise. It now costs over $250 for the same flight that was less than $100, and mark my words, a new lower cost entrant WILL come on the scene and be in a position to undercut Westjet by having lower operating costs. Yes that's right! Westjet today, is nothing like the Westjet of 1996. It's happened before, and it will happen again. As nice as it would be to live in Speedboat's cool aid inspired Utopian world, it's a fantasy that is as flawed as every other Canadian airline that no longer exists. The only difference is that this story is still unfolding.

Think what you want.

Had the core business in Western Canada remained status quo with $1 a mile walk up yields 12 years ago when oil was $18 a bbl, Canadian would have likely survived the Asia meltdown in 97-98, even when they were still operating aged DC10's. That's how profitable the west was pre WJ.

However, fares plummeted and the only safe harbor they had, Western Canada, went sideways. WJ was the nail in the coffin. That's why other carriers pretty much let WJ run loose in Western Canada.

C3000 was done like toast prior to 9/11 and they knew it. Lecky's memo to his Board confirms it. No one had ever expanded that quickly and both Royal and CJ v1.0 were losing money big time. WJ knew those 3 would be done the day the deal was done in April of 2001. WJ simply sat back, carried on business as usual and watched the fun from a distance.

It's been proven over and over again world that all it takes is one low cost entrant offering one sched flight a day to destroy yields in a market.

If you have any doubts about that, check to see what fares are being offered the day before WJ offers service to YZF and the day after.
The incumbents have to match fares across the board.

If they simply match on a flight by flight basis, both flights will fill up as people drift to the flights with fares 50% lower than the bracketing flights. You gonna take the $99 flight at 8:00am or the $379 flight at 11:00am? The cheap flights fill up, the others go empty. If they drop fares across the board, they lose even more money. You can't lose a little on every flight but make it up on volume.

If you are a low cost carrier and have done your homework, you'll be able to make 15% margins if that occurs as the other airlines lose 10-15%. That is the key to the plan. Because the guy with the lower costs is highly profitable and the low fares are stimulating demand on all carriers, that one leisure flight a day will turn into two leisure flights a day. The other guys simply can't throw more capacity into the mix to absorb the demand. The more they do it, the greater the losses incurred. Sooner or later, they run out of cash. We've seen that over and over and over again in Canada.

Repeat over a few years and, lo and behold, the LCC has 6+ flights a day between markets and is now able to compete for the higher yielding passengers who want frequency. Now you are moving from the stimulation model to share shift model, which, with a few exceptions domestically, is where WJ is today, with fares being pretty much equal, but profitability from operations being very, very different.

As for costs, WJ's were 13.6 cents with a 930 mile asl in 3Q 2008. Jazz's costs and asl are easily calculated from the info available on their website. Mainline's costs are easily calculated, but asl is not as AC does not provide the number of mainline departures per quarter, (asm's and weighted average seats per departure is available). Without adjusting for the accurate average stage length, comparing casm is a useless exercise.

Regardless, WJ's costs of moving a seat a mile remain about 40% below any significant competitor in Canada, about the same as it was when they started in 1996. The absolute casm isn't as important as the delta between the two.

Anyone wanting to come in under WJ would have to do it with a casm at least 33% below WJ's. There is no realistic way of accomplishing that on any type of ongoing basis with an airplane type with the appropriate capacity and range, ie trans-con / ETOPS / 140 seats +/- 20. No one wants to be stuck with Maddogs in Canada with $50+ oil. If someone wants to get a lower casm by operating 747-400's on YVR-YYZ, let them have at it.

Without lower costs, there can not be a sustainable level of lower fares to stimulate new demand and therefore no opportunity to use price to create new passengers.

WJ left a window of opportunity in Canada when they didn't move into YYZ in a big way when Cdn all but collapsed. That left an opportunity for Jetsgo and we all know what happened there. That door has been slammed shut.

WJ is smart enough to leave fares low even in monopoly markets. No one flies to YXX or YHM, yet the fares are pretty much common rated to YVR and YYZ. There's not enough there to intrigue route planners of airlines with significantly higher cost structures, and fares are low enough that the only sort of fares that would stimulate new demand would bankrupt a new entrant pretty quickly.

Like Virgin USA and Skybus, there is no obvious market for a new entrant product. It'd be the same for anyone else trying to create WJ V.2 in Canada. Anyone wanting to do so would have to raise at least a couple hundred million in paid-in capital. Do you see that happening anytime soon given the millions lost by Jetsgo, Roots, Harmony, Greyhound, Canadian etc etc?

Add to that, Canada is a small market with 40%+ of traffic coming from connections. It'd be very very difficult for anyone to create any sort of network to overcome those operated by the incumbent legacy and low cost carriers.

Canada is a relatively small market. Think in terms of WalMart. Prior to WJ, we had Sears, the Bay, Woodwards (in the west) and Eatons all duking it out, all with pretty much the same cost structure. No one could afford a killing stroke without killing them selves along the way. In comes WalMart, the lowest cost operator and pretty quickly, the weakest fall away.

What's left between those left standing, (The Bay/Zellers, Sears and WalMart) covers the remaining market. There's not much room left for Target or Nordstroms.

There's not much difference between this and how the Cdn industry has evolved in the past dozen years.

Keep an eye on the forest, not the trees.

Westjet is not an LCC anymore. A true example of an LCC is Ryanair. South of the border, Southwest is a good example. Westjet however has taken a different direction which works but is historically unsustainable.

Okay speedboat. I'll "think what I want".Please tell me the upper management at Westjet isn't smoking the same stuff, or I worry for you!

But otherwise, enjoy your airline's success. And try to "keep it real". I will never accept some of your ridiculous positions about Westjet putting a One World Airline, with 160 destinations in 17 countries, out of business,with a few 737-200's but thanks for the entertainment! You are a real gem!

I'm out.

No matter what you think about them, good, bad, or otherwise, Westjet will be known historically and factually as the most successful and most profitable in Canadian airline history. Period! :ok:

"I'm out"

Smart move. Quit while you are behind.

This reminds me of two guys in a gunfight except you're fighting with a knife.


On another note , I remember having lunch with Clive in July of the year C3 went down. Well before 911. He told me that C3 was probably going down within months. He was right.

Enerjet
 

Wow...some guys have some serious downtime to sit and recall or search out all that crap from 1996 and beyond.

Maybe somebody could just state that they don't have a clue as to what the salary or working conditions are at Enerjet and answer the original posting instead of debating who did what to whom or who is the better Company. I personally believe he/she asked a fair question and no one has answered him/her, at least not on this public forum.

One thing I do know....anyone working for WJ, AC, Transat, Sunwing, Porter or any other outfit in Canada should be happy they have a paycheck that puts food on the table and a roof over their heads.
I've been flying for 22 yrs now and still marvel how pilots can regale one another just because they work for different operators.

Best wishes and success to all hoping to be employed by Enerjet.

captains are making 140ish. All the pilots are from westjet so far and have taken over their vacation allotment as well.
There are no F/O's as of yet.

That is all the info I could gleam from a WJ'er who decided not to go.

If these are separate companies, how does an ex-westjetter bring their vacation over to Enerjet???
Isn't that creating a problem?
All new hires being created equal? .....maybe not.
That can't be good. Can it?

Enerjets DFO and CP
 

Does anyone have the names of Enerjets DFO and Chief Pilot? Are they still hiring only 737 NG rated pilots?

Paper Airline
 

Enerjet is really no more than a paper airline with some limited staff and lots of talk. However, we will see if their investors have the appetite to turn the firehose of negative cash flow on in this market.

Thereby, Enerjet can say anything they want about their projected wages. Lets wait for someone off the street to actually receive a pay check. Lets also see how long the investors will be happy with very little revenue and growing costs.

Let's look at their Ad. They tell us...

People are an organization's greatest asset.

Great opener.
Call me cynical, but isn't this kind of a nothing statement? No people in your organization you might expect nothing would get done. Nothing would move (or fly for that matter). Passengers wouldn't get where they wanted to go.
It must be a good thing having people in your organization. I know I don't like working by myself for a company that doesn’t have people. You have to admit, having people in your organization is pretty important
I wonder if they'll have team players? I hear team players are a useful asset. Unless they're really competitive Type A team players. Personally, I think there are way too many Type As in our profession as it is.

The enerjet experience will be a brand that speaks to the people it serves... that usually means a sick joke over the P.A. and the people that serve them. (they're usually the ones on the P.A.)

If you're looking for a satisfying, rewarding opportunity, we're looking for you.

I was looking but apparently these guys are really looking for West Jetters who are already in a satisfying, rewarding career. Face it. You can’t beat experience.
Maybe that's why flying aeroplanes is such a discouraging job. I used to think it was a profession but as it turns out it's just an occupation. Because it's really just work that occupies most of your waking hours. How professional can that be, being locked up in a room smaller than the average household bathroom for several hours on end suffering through those 25 minute turnarounds? Which could lead to another question about safety…..but not now.

We're seeking individuals with:
o High energy and a great work ethic, isn't that just cleverly disguising the meaning of young, inexperienced, and gullible,
o A pioneering spirit, if a pioneer is a person who is one of the first from another country or region to explore or settle a new area, how do ex-West Jetters fit into this search?
o Great people skills, I guess with all that interaction you get on the flight deck behind that locked door, plus those 25 minute turns…it comes in handy?
and
o A "can-do" attitude. Oh-oh. This usually means where they might be lacking as a company you'll be expected to shore it up through unspoken words and suggestion to make up for (just don't get it wrong) those shortcomings.

Our team is supported through innovative and best-practice systems that emphasize cost efficiency and profitability while allowing a customer-centric approach.
I guess if I have to ask what this ‘really’ means, I’m not their man. I probably caught onto that a lot quicker than you think.

I wonder if that somehow means the rewarding part in opportunity really means the salary isn't all that rewarding for such a “can-do pioneer, with a high energy level (not to mention deeply fatigued level) and great people skills”.


enerjet recognizes that dedicated employees are a company's number one competitive advantage in the marketplace. I for one, totally agree. You?

They might want to be careful when raising the bar though. It usually means there are more who can’t jump over it than those who can. That would only limit the number of available “can-do pioneers, with their high energy levels and great people skills”.

In the aviation industry, it is not the cost of fuel or distribution that most profoundly influences profitability; it's the productivity and motivation of a company's workforce.
I know where this is going. But don’t say they didn’t warn you.

enerjet will capitalize on this sustainable competitive advantage by designing itself to attract, retain and grow the best people in the industry. What? Just like all the other airlines out there trying to do the same thing to survive. Okay. Good idea.

What about those who slip through the net, burn out and fail to deliver the goods? Those who end up riding a wave of dissention because they didn’t read into the recruitment verbiage? Well, there are check rides and line checks for all that and culling the herd is just a fact of life.

If you’re trying to get on with enerjet, best of luck to you.
If you’re presently working for an airline in this country, now is not the time to make a move.
There are enough of us who have done this since the late 70s and let me tell you, nothing much EVER changes. Carriers come and carriers go. The realities remain unchanged. The one constant change in this business is the names of the players. Know that nothing is forever and there’s no such thing as a sure thing. To thine own self be true and be very careful with your loyalty.

Willie :ok:

Good one Willie

Wow, I wasn't really planning on opening this can-o-worms. Didn't know most were so sensitive about Canadian aviation.

All I was looking for was some insight. Still am.

I do agree now is not the time to leave your job, but sometimes those who take an educated chance can open great opportunities.

Good luck to all, irrespective of your employer (some are gonna need it in this climate!).

CO

I think it's simple.
Any NEW startup in Canada should be welcomed with open arms and applauded for their gutsy move in the first place, but hey! Canadian aviation IS what it IS. Very limited in scope, width and breadth. With a verrry bloody past and it's been often said by far greater minds, history repeats itself. Which is both good and bad.
No need to drag out the long list of those who've gone before. We've read their gravestones.
No need to prattle on about financials, strengths, weaknesses, markets or any of that crap. (mea culpa)

Best of Luck down the road to all the players: enerjet, Canjet, Sunwing, Westjet and whatever Jet comes along next.

The FASTEN SEATBELTS sign is on. :eek:

Willie :ok:

Hmmmm
 

Spank em hard 4 daned. And I believe its a beverage rather than a herbal based product the WJ folks indulge in. Perhaps a slice of zesty fromage to compliment that teal kool-aid. Canadian aviation runs in cycles again and again. Careful if you invest to much in your own backyard.
Nothing funny about watching closures and none of us are immune to it.
H

Somewhere way up this thread there was a mention that AJK had a part in C3's demise...didn't we hear (after it went TU) that he opposed Mr. Lecky's expansion? Any here able to confirm that? Incidentally, the "owner's" claim that WJ had much to do with CAIL's failure is a pure result of ingesting WAY too much teal liquid...CAIL was already sick and WJ simply booted the old girl while she was down...I don't recall CAIL ever being "Banco" and AC was forced to pick up the carcass... funny how some people make up their own version of history to make themselves look smarter in the eyes of the little ones. I do agree with those who know their history, Canadian aviation is littered with the bodies of good companies and you might look at the government of the True North Strong and Free to see why..try to recall TCA and Canadian Pacific Airlines standing toe to toe over the Pacific and Atlantic routes (read the Accidental Airline or Bush Pilot With a Briefcase) and who was reffing that fight?...Not much has changed except that the remnants still hate each other and it's been passed on to the next generation to carry that torch. Bloody business? You bet!

Any news?
 

So what's the latest on Enerjet? The last post before mine was a while ago and the last post on their website is dated from Apr.

Have they abandoned the idea or is it still going ahead?

Hustle On :ok:

News?

Yea - they are flying regularly now. YVR, YEG,YYC down to Mexico and Dominican.