Will Sunwing last?
 

What are your thoughts about Sunwing? Will it last? Or be the next Zoom...

With XL hitting the deck, the general feeling is no-one's safe - but if you look at XL's finances, they weren't that great, and it was simply a matter of time before the house of cards came falling down. On the other hand, FlyBE over in the UK is a success story...so it's not all gloom and doom...

Sunwing's been around for 20 years near as dammit, and insists their financial position is sound. They're even scooping up ex-Zoomers for cabin and flight deck.

Anyone got some concrete information on Sunwing's viability in terms of T/O, cash-at-hand etc ?

Concrete information? This is aviation remember. The only constant is that everything changes daily.

Does Canada adopt similar rules to the UK with package tour 'get you home' guarantees and credit card refunds, but zero coverage for cash / debit card ticket purchases?

As Zoom and XL proved, it would be a brave person who shells out the latter for tickets in the present environment.

In Ontario, Sunwing's home province, all package tour companies are members of a travel industry group called TICO and they pay premiums to provide coverage to their customers in the event of a default on the part of the tour company or the airline.

Sunwing
 

Tico makes it easy for airlines like Sunwing to run the entire operation on advance bookings. When they go banco, and they will, everyone else helps to cover off the losses and inconvenience suffered by consumers.

The best insurance is for the airline itself to have, and be able to prove to the public that they have enough cash over and above advance bookings to pay for 60 days operations.

In any event, an increasing number of agencies are no longer booking Sunwing. They all know what has happened in the past to airlines that consistently charge half of the going rate.

Banco.

:ok:

I am getting so sick and tired of this garbage I keep reading. I can't even believe that I am responding anymore, but I simply cannot understand how you think that a thread like this is productive.

There are real people with real jobs involved and spreading this crap about Sunwing is infuriating.

What ever happened to going to work and doing the best job you can to make your company successful? Loitering around aviation forums and trying to stir the pot regarding another's job is weak.

Half the going rate? What are you talking about? Yes, Sunwing is cheaper than Sunquest and WJ Vacations, but certainly not by half. Why is that?

Sunquest wet-leases Skyservice. Every price that one out? It is pretty expensive to charter an airplane, that is why Sunwing got their own. It saves money.

How about WJ or AC Vacations? Here is a news flash, Sunwing is the largest tour operator in Cuba by far. Therefore they get a much better rate from the hotels and can pass that along to the consumer.

Speedboat, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and that is evident from the fact that you keep referring to Sunwing as an airline. It is not an airline, it is a 25 year old tour operator that leases planes for the winter season based on lift requirements.

I cannot believe that you signed off with a thumbs up after predicting Sunwing will go "banco". Grow up, I truly hope you never have to go through a layoff or shutdown.

Speedboat
 

.... not only are you a disgrace to you collegees at WJ. I have many many good friends at WJ and they would be sickened by knowing one of their own authored the above post. Putting a thumbs up to Sunwing going bankrupt? Did we fire you? Did you not get through the hiring process? You have obviously developed a serious grudge and sound an awefull lot like someone that keep posting anti-sunwing rederic on avcanada. I know it is only a forum and people can express what they want... but will say it is easy to be an inconsiderate coward and hide behind a fake identity on a forum. I have had the rug pulled out from underneath me with and without warning it is not a pleasent experience.. it is hard on the whole family... a lot of stress and uncertainty. I don't wish that on my worst enemy.

My philosophy is to not post anything I would not put my name too. Theses forums would certainly be alot more positive place to visit if everyone had that attitude. If posters such as Speedboat was forced to put there real name out there I doubt the above mentioned post would excist

I agree with Rubberbiscuit...from one who has faced an uncertain future in the past, we should show a good deal more humility and refrain from posting irreverend remarks about the real or perceived belly flop of an outfit where human beings are employed, who rely on their salary to keep afloat and provide for their loved ones.

Everyone who's a real person in the industry, wouldn't wish harm on SWG or anyone else for that matter. Sure, ask questions and debate, but seemingly wishing for a major fall, is a bit wide of the mark. Let's all hope SWG's, TSC's, SSV's, WSJ's etc. financial management is way better than XL's and Z4's, and we can all weather the credit crunch storm on its way.

I've been there myself - staring into space wondering what the hell happened before getting back onto my feet and back into the pointy end - a bit like some posting on the Ryanair thread - different topic but same flavour - unless you have experienced job loss through no fault of your own, you have NO idea what it's like...so button it.

I totaly agree with the previous posting! Nobody wants to be in such a situation.
Personally though, I consider Sunwing scavengers!
The vehicle of creating seasonal pilots in Europe!:yuk:
Having said that, I have nothing against their pilots and I wish them all the best!

"Seasonal Pilots in Europe"

Last time I checked SWG and SKY have European pilots in the winter... It is reciprocated!

levantes & remarkable bean:

Thanks for your vote of support. I have no idea how long Sunwing will last, nobody does as it is a private, closed book operation. I just don't understand where people get off seeing fellow aviators worlds turned upside down by loosing their jobs.

The seasonal pilot issue has long been a sensitive one. r8ted thrust is however right, it goes both ways. It saves 2 companies in a mutual agreement from laying off for six months every year and hence keep the EI lineup shorter.

Was Sunwing pilots getting paid the same as XL and vice-versa?
Two different groups of pilots, different T&C's, leverage for the management to cut pay!
How can you defend your T&C's?
Sunwing pilots will support me in case of an industrial action?
I think not!
If I try to get rid of the foreign pilots and I will probably conceed to the demands of the management in return?
In both cases I lose because a second group of pilots in the same company is the Trojan Horse to any collective agreement or contract!
Hope you get my point!
And another thing! 6 months here and 6 months there, not the best thing when raising a family!
Back in the 90's there was a rule about fleet expansion in the charters! The number of aircraft you can sustain in the low season determines the number of aircraft you use in the high season!
That's wise planning!

levantes
 

I do see your point to a certain extent, and I am guessing you already know the answer to most of the questions you posed. First of all Sunwing pilots work under Sunwing T & Cs while on deployment. I understand the airplanes/crews are wetleased so that is the way it has to be for many reasons. I don't know what the T &Cs are for the companies that lease Sunwing crews and airplanes nor do I care. Why? I was hired by Sunwing under the Sunwing T & Cs and I understood that where ever I find myself I was will be a Sunwing employee, and the conditions I am employed uner is more than fair. I guess what you are trying to say is that wetleasing aircraft/crew brings down the T/C's of your or any company they operate for in Europe? Not sure I see how that could be. Sunwing T&C's are on par with Canadian standards and cost of living in Canada are in a different league from Europe (I am guessing 25 - 50% less depending on where in Europe you are) so I don't see how Sunwing's less attractive T&C would be an excuse for management to cut wages in Europe. Also, by the time the extra expenses associated with wet leasing are said and done I am not so sure there is a whole lot of savings to be had. Where the savings probably lie is in not having to hire and train/retrain crews every spring. We all know it is about making more $$, and the business people that are in charge aiming for a bigger slize of the pie. Your last paragraph referring to the 90's rule of thumb sounds good on paper and to you and me but I don't think to many airline owners think like that. If they can fill up 10 airplanes in the busy season they will get ten airplanes as long there is work somewhere for them in the off season. Most of us would preferr to be "here" for 12 months, but will settle for "6 here and 6 there" if it means being employed 12 months out of the year. If having a mutual agreement in place for wetleasing during the off season is having a detoriating effect on your T&Cs I am sorry to hear that. Like I said our T&C are pretty much to North American standards and we are taken very good care of when deployed so I haven't heard any complaints on this end.

You said: Sunwing T&C's are on par with Canadian standards and cost of living in Canada are in a different league from Europe (I am guessing 25 - 50% less depending on where in Europe you are)

That is exactly what I'm saying! You cost less, low leasing rate therefore very attractive for european management!


You said: I don't see how Sunwing's less attractive T&C would be an excuse for management to cut wages in Europe

Cheaper Labour! You don't have that in Canada?
If I can do my job with less I will not choose the expensive one unless he brings or I bring his price down!
From what I understand though is that in Canada aviation is quite unique.
Vast country, small regional airlines and a very unstable working enviroment.
I've read that a lot of airlines went bust the last years so I fully understand your views on the issues that I raised.
But being on the other side of the pond with the salaries being high (cost of living is high) even for the Low Cost companies, having a situation like what I described previously is fire in my pants.

levantes
this has been going on for around 20 yrs Canada 3000 used to send a/c across to fly British charters for Air 2000, and so on.
I remember when E European a/c and crews were the bad guy due much lower T&C's.

levantes
 

I hear you. Again I could be wrong as I do not know what the agreement between Sunwing and European carriers look like, but although our baseline salary is lower here the company forks out about 40,000Cdn over 6 months on expenses to every pilot deployed over and above the rest of the wage. I'd imagine the expenses along with the monthly salary is built in to the cost of the wet lease. The cost of the a/c lease, incurance, fuel etc should remain fixed, so I don't see where the big savings would lie. The big advantage is in that it allows companies to operate more airplanes during peak season and hence create more revenue without the worries of what to do with eqipment during off season. Laying off, hiring, training etc gets costly when you have to assume that a big percentage of pilot/flight attendants would not return after a lay-off..... which brings us back to my/your point about fleet size. Unfortunatly that is completely out of our hands and will always remain that way.

Rubberbiscuit
 

What your saying makes sense!
Unfortunately I have inside info regarding the agreement between Sunwing and my company which obviously I cannot share with you, that is prooving what I'm saying.
Before the Sunwing agreement there were numerous attempts to reduce layover allowance (because us too deploy and operate) and to employ contract pilots with a 6 month contract renuable!
After the agreement one aircraft operated by us left for Canada and came back operated by you guys!
And we talking about aircraft that was leased initially by my company!
Do your maths now and tell me if they made savings or not!
There are some parts of the world were airline management gets allergies when it comes to pilot emoluments!:=

Did not know that was how it shook out for you guys. Puts a whole new slant on it.....

id say both swg and eca made savings.cheap lease for swg and cheaper labor for eca.

id say someone has very fat account somewhere in the Caribbean!:yuk:

no i would say a good way for swg to keep pilots employed during the off season,and take advantage of a convienient cheap lease.It works both ways.both companies have to be part of it.one airplane two sets of pilots.

llnflder
 

Are we some sort of a charity institution?
Sunwing can do what ever they want with their pilots.If they can find work for their pilots in off season that's great!
Not in my company though and its not just me saying that!
We are working hard, we go the extra mile but we will safeguard what we have with teeth and nails.
And be sure about that!

Lavantes, you should be thanking companies like Sunwing for Saving your job. How long in this market do you think your company would last only flying 6 months a year? Do you think the aircraft are free during the winter when your not flying them? The partnership between North American carriers and European Carriers is a perfect mesh. If you want to protect your job by kicking out those that are saving you help yourself.

If in fact Sunwing took over the lease payments on your aircraft you should also be thanking them. Your company is no longer on the hook for them and they are being flown 12 months a year now.

No one is making money off the pilots by undercutting wages. Take the pay for a sunwing pilot, add the per-diem, housing, cars and you will come up with a figure very close to your pay and per-diem.

Stop being short sighted and look at the bigger picture. We both need each other to keep a competitive edge over the competition.

You never took payments for the leasing fee!
The initial leasing fee to ILFC is $400000 paid by ECA as well as the heavy maintenance!
It is leased to Sunwing for only $276000 per month for a period of 6 months a year during the winter! The remaining 6 months ECA pays the leasing fee to ILFC and $196000 a month for crews to Sunwing! I don't know how much your getting from that money but I'm sure not all of it!
It's not in culture anyway to ask for a lot!
Some deal hah....
Crew utilization in Crete is zero!
Last year 2 a/c, 12 crews, 55 layovers per pilot. This year 1 a/c, 8 crews, 46 layovers per pilot. The other aircraft has I guess simillar number of crews for Sunwing, paid of course by ECA including accomodation which wasn't to your standards (which I agree)!
You Sunwing pilots don't underestimate me as I'm NOT that stupid to insist nor shortsighted! We have facts in our hands that prove this is a bad deal for us and the government as the owner is already informed and will take action!
There are other ways to occupy 6 aircraft and make profit!
We don't need the "Canadian Hand" to pull us from the mud!
By the way we don't just fly for 6 months! ECA has been around for 16 years now and survived two Gulf wars which affected tourism substantially down here!
But if you insist I don't mind doing what you asked for!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

The Markets
 

I hope the markets recover soon. They are not putting people in a mood to spend money on vacations. If we can just have a short recession everything will be just fine. If it is long things may get a little bit more challenging. I sure hope that all turns out well. Nobody wants to see another airline go bust.

Just found this on ACPA's web site.
 

The future has already landed at Skyservice Airlines Inc., which has cancelled snacks at internal meetings, restricted BlackBerry use, lowered office thermostats and scrapped company-paid parties in favour of potlucks.

In an internal memo, Canada's second-largest charter airline has told employees that after recently issuing layoff notices, it must also institute a hiring freeze and reduce some salaries, but insists those traditional cost-cutting measures don't go far enough.

Nothing is sacred. Restrictions have been placed on printing, photocopying and long-distance calls. The coffee machine is no longer free. Even the company-sponsored golf tournament is toast.

Skyservice's plight foreshadows a cost-cutting future at other companies starting to tighten their belts amid a deteriorating economy and deepening global financial crisis.

I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

Cargojet Income Fund, Canada's main domestic cargo carrier, says softening demand for its services have forced it to embark on a cost-cutting program that includes lower salaries for executives and frozen wages for employees. High fuel prices and reduced shipments mean that the company must become leaner, Cargojet president Ajay Virmani and other executives said in a memo to staff. Cargojet, which slashed its monthly distributions in July to 6.75 cents a unit from 9.64 cents, has temporarily banned business travel and halted discretionary spending on entertainment for customers and employees. The trust will also be limiting expenses for cellphones and mobile devices. CJT.UN (TSX) rose 10 cents to $4.45.

globeandmail.com: Cargojet cuts costs as demand slows

Sunwing is in trouble
 

As of November 1st. Over 1000 employee's of Sunwing will be laid off?

I am afraid they are in trouble!
:\

Actually cuban cutie Sunwing is still hiring. We are still short for the winter season and bookings are up over last year. Nice try though!!

FWIW, I think cabin cutie is just stirring the pot, but don't make the mistake of assuming that continuous hiring is a sign of viability. Jetsgo was also still hiring when the plug got pulled.

Lets never compare those two.

Who was comparing them? There's more differences than similarities in the business models. But just because you're hiring doesn't mean you're solvent. Zoom was hiring for this winter too.

lots of the same characters from jetsgo are @ sunwing and they have some similar marketing tactics. I'm not convinced that everybody will survive unscathed this winter in Canada.

The comparison with Jetsgo is misplaced...LeBlanc hiring pilots involved $30,000.00...He was well aware of the companies finances, and didn't secure the funds....

That was revenue. He's a piece of work. Sunwing is a different company altogether.....Laid off with an 737 type rating is different than $30,000 down on a F-100....

The zoom hiring is a valid point.

To keep Sunwing on there toe's, i hear that Transat will be coming after them next year.
With Sunwing untilizing small airports around the country this winter, I hear that Transat will be doing the same next winter. (good competition?)
As the A310's will not be able to be accommodated at several airports, i hear transat will be booking more seats next winter using agreements with Westjet and SkyService, using their 737's A320's.

As for Sunwing, Keep flying, hope they stick around for a long time to come.

Actually they will be using Canjet with 737NG´s this year.

You know I just posted a reply and then went back and read a couple of the previous posts. I still can´t believe that people in this industry absoloutley relish the fact that another person in the same industry may lose his job. Are we as pilots so paranoid and insecure??

Mr. Head, I hope I didn't come across that way. You are right though, as airline employees we are often too quick to downplay our competitors instead of looking at ourselves working towards the same goal - a viable airline industry.

ng78
 

I agree with you on all points, but also want to say there is no comparison between Leblanc and the Hunter family. Leblanc is a shortsighted scoundrel that intentionally stole money from customers and employees alike. He sold thousands of tickets on routes yet to be initiated in the weeks preceeding the bankruptcy knowing full well where the company was headed.

The Hunters founded Sunwing Vacations 25 years ago for what it is worth and seem to be organized with plans and back up plans going forward. I am only speculating of course. That said, the looming or current recession (depending on whom you might ask), is turning the coming charter season into a whole new ballgame. Something has to give, as tens of thousands of potential or confirmed holiday travelers are downgrading or cancelling their winter getaways. Transat posted a loss recently and expressed their concern for the tougher economic times ahead. I have no idea how any of the balance sheets of the other vacation airlines in Canada looks, but the spiraling dollar and the general state of the economy concerns me for sure. I hope we all come out at the other end of the tunnel in one piece, only time will tell. Good luck to all!!