Oh don't get me wrong RB, I understand the concept completely... but the fact is don't expect warmth and fuzziness if you loose your job from a company who cashes in on cutting the other's throat and doesn't succeed... or don't get on your high horses when a poster makes a prediction about it that you don't like... Like you say, it's dog eat dog. If you agree to the rules, then play by the rules!
That's my point. |
Gumbi:
There is no high horse to get off of here, rest assured. I have found myself unemployed/laid off from various reasons including the competition across the street undercutting and eventually forcing my then employer to lay off over half of its current pilots including me. These things happens and are out om my control.... I certainly did not get pissed off at the pilots at the competition. They were simply trying to do their job and feed their families just like everyone else. Which is the points I am trying to make in this thread. I for one wish no harm to anyone, including our competitors. I was or is not looking for any kind of sympathy(read warmth and fuzziness).... sympathy for what? I have a job for now. I could not care less if someone wants to throw darts at a calendar and predict the competitions demise... I just find it humorous that someone would go as far as telling me that I will be out of work the 2nd week of January!! On the upside I guess I don't have to study for my recurrent now that I know I will be on the street anyway;)!
As far as undercutting goes I am not sure who you are referring to, but it takes alot more than a lower price to succeed. Including but not limited to customer service, customer support and having a product people will by into more than once. I think vacationers are very loyal for the most part, and if they are happy with a product they will keep coming back regardless of the name on the airplane. Being able to offer a lower price than the competition does not mean everyone is going to come running to you. It does however make people that could not normally afford a vaction think twice about it. In a nutshell I simply don't understand where people see the need to post lies or slander about others... competition or not. |
RB
...let's hope you stay employed and enjoy flying as much as ever, assuming you do enjoy it. At the end of the day, we only have 20/20 hindsight. :ok: |
Wille Everlean:
...thanks for that, and yes I certainly enjoy what I am doing very much. Still haven't figured out what the hell I am doing in this crazy industry though:)! Must be a sucker for chaos and a life in uncertainty I guess!!!?
|
Sunwing's operation in Europe in the summer is over!
New EU legislation effective from november 1st! http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_po..._1008_2008.pdf |
Sorry but what exactly are we supposed to learn from this document, and how does it relate to Sunwing?
Can you point us to the relevant section? This is a pretty impenetrable stuff. |
First page paragraph 8
In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market, and they should be strictly limited in time and fulfil safety standards equivalent to the safety rules of Community and national legislation. |
I read through it and I am not good at breaking down legal jargon but articl 13 "Leasing" seem to leave the door open still????
1. Without prejudice to Article 4(c), a Community air carrier may have one or more aircraft at its disposal through dry or wet lease agreement. Community air carriers may freely operate wetleased aircraft registered within the Community except where this would lead to endangering safety. The Commission shall ensure that the implementation of such a provision is reasonable and proportionate and based on safety considerations. 2. A dry lease agreement to which a Community air carrier is a party or a wet lease agreement under which the Community air carrier is the lessee of the wet-leased aircraft shall be subject to prior approval in accordance with applicable Community or national law on aviation safety. 3. A Community air carrier wet leasing aircraft registered in a third country from another undertaking shall obtain prior approval for the operation from the competent licensing authority. The competent authority may grant an approval if: (a) the Community air carrier demonstrates to the satisfaction of the competent authority that all safety standards equivalent to those imposed by Community or national law are met; and (b) one of the following conditions is fulfilled: (i) the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval may be granted for a period of up to seven months that may be renewed once for a further period of up to seven months; 31.10.2008 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 293/9 (ii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the leasing is necessary to satisfy seasonal capacity needs, which cannot reasonably be satisfied through leasing aircraft registered within the Community, in which case the approval may be renewed; or (iii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the leasing is necessary to overcome operational difficulties and it is not possible or reasonable to lease aircraft registered within the Community, in which case the approval shall be of limited duration strictly necessary for overcoming the difficulties. 4. The competent authority may attach conditions to the approval. Such conditions shall form part of the wet lease agreement. The competent authority may refuse to grant an approval if there is no reciprocity as regards wet leasing between the Member State concerned or the Community and the third country where the wet-leased aircraft is registered. The competent authority shall inform the Member States concerned about an approval it has granted for wet leasing aircraft registered in a third country. |
[the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the
basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval may be granted for a period of up to seven months that may be renewed once for a further period of up to seven months That's from article 13 that means 2 seasons ONLY IF the authority grants them permission to lease! |
This isn't going to change a thing. The key word is "should" (only be allowed in exceptional circumstances). Not "must", but should. And it won't be difficult for an airline to claim "exceptional circumstances" either. We live in exceptional times! Notice how the maximum time is given as 7 months? That allows wet-lease aircraft to fly an entire summer season, as they always have done. It is rare for anything to last longer than that anyway so most airlines would not need to use the extension clause which would apply to concurrent periods of 7 months, not annually recurring ones as is what currently happens.
There are a number of airlines here in the UK with long-term reciprocal agreements with Canadian carriers (Sunwing, Skyservice), including mine. If we didn't have them we would be looking at massive fleet and crew reductions. That's pretty exceptional... |
If it makes you feel better and suits your current situation there's no objection on my side.
The law is there and interpret it as you like! Thank you! |
From article 13:
(ii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the leasing is necessary to satisfy seasonal capacity needs, which cannot reasonably be satisfied through leasing aircraft registered within the Community, in which case the approval may be renewed; The competent authority may refuse to grant an approval if there is no reciprocity as regards wet leasing between the Member State concerned or the Community and the third country where the wet-leased aircraft is registered. The competent authority shall inform the Member States concerned about an approval it has granted for wet leasing aircraft registered in a third country. |
Nothing has changed Levantas, in fact Sunwing might be operating two aircraft this summer out of Greece for Eurocypria. Its a mutually beneficial agreement between two companies. It happens all over Europe and I can assure you nothing has changed.
Gumbi if company A can produce the same product as company B for 20% less therefore charge 20% less whats the problem? If Sunwing wasn't making money then I would agree with you but thats not the case. Are you saying that AirTransat is losing money? |
I don't trust the EU or their JAA/EASA regulators. Certainly not as a Canadian. If you don't have work for your airline in Canada, then it makes perfect sense to sell your airline elsewhere. But, economics and protectionist regulations could sink that idea. Our reasoning and logic differs.
It is a protectionist regime (as it should be) and it will do as it likes to protect it's member states. (gee, what a concept?) As for interpreting their regs from a Canadian perspective, I'd forget it. We Canadians (Transport Canada) aren't the least bit 'protectionist'. How many foreigners post on this forum, looking for pilot employment in Canada, and some, supposedly in-the-know Canadian pilot actually takes the time to tell the anonymous poster who he/she should approach about a job and what he/she needs to get the job. Are you kidding??? (As for foreign pilots with an ICAO licence who legally immigrate to Canada, that's an entirely different discussion.) Have you noticed not one, not one pilot group in Canada wants to champion the cause or tell our Government it needs to protect the few pilot jobs we have, for Canadian pilots? (not as far as I know) I think I understand the protectionist attitude over there. It might be worth noting, while Sunwing is 'expanding' by increasing its fleet size, passenger traffic worldwide is down significantly. Do we really think the bucket and spade brigade is going to be flooding the Caribbean and Florida this winter??? Are we that naieve? Sure sounds like it. I hope Sunwing has a plan. I hope Sunwing has a really good plan. ...and another thing. If the available seats ARE controlled or directed by Air Transat Vacations, then the problem may go beyond a single carrier. Others could be affected by a significant decrease in customers who decide NOT to go south this winter. You have to hope the brain trust at Transat, Sunwing, Skyservice and CanJet in light of the recent economic and political turmoil in this country, has reassessed their Winter capacity and aircraft lease agreements or (as I've already said) someone's going down. |
Sunwing and Skyservice would not exist if they couldn't wet-lease to Europe in the summer. They send far more Canadians over to Europe than go the other way.
And as for the "non-protectionist" Canadians, think again. After similar complaints a few years ago they stopped validating licences and required Europeans to sit the exams and do the instrument rating (albeit on type in the sim). |
Willie whats with the hostility towards Sunwing and others?
Anyone would think that you had been "PFOed" by these airlines. Are you pissed off at people in general? Or is your anger only directed at airlines that don't want to employ you? |
northeast canuck:
I can't speak for Sunwing, but the seconded pilot numbers between Skyservice and the UK partners has been very close to an even match for the past several years. |
ecosystem
I'm not pistoff at anyone and couldn't care less whether ANYone wants or doesn't want to employ me. I've reached the point in my life (notice I didn't use the word career?) where I understand the industry well enough to know that I am no longer prepared to bend over backwards and kiss the ground so I can have another opportunity to work for 40K a year as a jr. F/O for another fly-by-night operator who expects me to wait 6 months for an ID50 while running medicals and checkrides every six months so I can sit in a hotel in Europe for six months at a time when the so-called "industry" is teetering on the brink. Thanks but no thanks. I prefer stability. You? Pistoff??? Not me. I was merely musing about the potential for airline failures in this country. Can't you read? |
Willie Everlearn
I don't trust the EU or their JAA/EASA regulators. Certainly not as a Canadian. If you don't have work for your airline in Canada, then it makes perfect sense to sell your airline elsewhere. But, economics and protectionist regulations could sink that idea. Our reasoning and logic differs. It is a protectionist regime (as it should be) and it will do as it likes to protect it's member states. (gee, what a concept?) As for interpreting their regs from a Canadian perspective, I'd forget it. We Canadians (Transport Canada) aren't the least bit 'protectionist'. How many foreigners post on this forum, looking for pilot employment in Canada, and some, supposedly in-the-know Canadian pilot actually takes the time to tell the anonymous poster who he/she should approach about a job and what he/she needs to get the job. Are you kidding??? (As for foreign pilots with an ICAO licence who legally immigrate to Canada, that's an entirely different discussion.) Have you noticed not one, not one pilot group in Canada wants to champion the cause or tell our Government it needs to protect the few pilot jobs we have, for Canadian pilots? (not as far as I know) I think I understand the protectionist attitude over there. It might be worth noting, while Sunwing is 'expanding' by increasing its fleet size, passenger traffic worldwide is down significantly. Do we really think the bucket and spade brigade is going to be flooding the Caribbean and Florida this winter??? Are we that naieve? Sure sounds like it. I hope Sunwing has a plan. I hope Sunwing has a really good plan. ...and another thing. If the available seats ARE controlled or directed by Air Transat Vacations, then the problem may go beyond a single carrier. Others could be affected by a significant decrease in customers who decide NOT to go south this winter. You have to hope the brain trust at Transat, Sunwing, Skyservice and CanJet in light of the recent economic and political turmoil in this country, has reassessed their Winter capacity and aircraft lease agreements or (as I've already said) someone's going down. As far as the winter ahead goes, I agree something has to give. Overall capacity has been increases bigtime in Canada as we are into a deepening recession. I hope there is a plan as well and that my employer is willing to do what it takes to keep the company profitable in these tougher times ahead. Apparently preseason booking are very strong, but I am not sure how much that means in the current economic climate. I love my job, but I am not as naive as to think nothing can happen. I hope I don't have to a job search again, but at the same time my resume is up to date and ready to go! |
oh I can read willie... I can read your past posts. I can read all about how you tried to scab your way into cx and even they, at their most desperate, pfoed you.
willie... why the hostility? |
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