Hard Landing...
 

Anyone hear of a Skyservice incident in PUJ regarding bending an airplane?

Just what's on the "other" forum... Heard/read that Boeing engineers were brough in to investigate the airframe as there could reportedly be some "bending" involved...

Would imagine a bend airframe could = write-off. Could be wrog, maybe they can just put it on the rack and straighten it (sarcasim)...

Either way, will be interesting to hear what happened and glad everyone is safe.

767 bounced whilst FO flying and pitched nose down to try to correct:( Landed nose wheel first! Training captain was onboard.

Passengers were not too aware of the issue, just thought it was a heavy landing?

All rumours as I was not there, cannot see what was on the other thread as I cannot find it.

YYZ

AirTransat's was little bent,after their arrival..Aircraft lived to fly another day-due to Insurance insistance on the salvage..:ok:

This looks more than a little bend (of course I'm not a structural engineer and the boys from Boeing will determine what the state of the aircraft is).

http://www.geocities.com/cargodawg02/ssvpuj.jpg

I need to post the pic somewhere else, ran out of data transfer space.

Just resized and compressed. Should fit better now. Give it a bit to get my transfer limit back

Holy crap.
That does not look very good:eek: :uhoh:

Dosnt really surprise me considering the lot at SSV. Good thing nobody got hurt...but could see it coming

Gilligan,to say the least a very CAVALIER statement to make..
Pilots all live in 'glass houses'your only as good as your last landibg so don't start casting stones-you could be next..
Sky's reputation for converting General aviation guys/girls to the Airline industry is second to none..
Recently the airlines(hiring)have had the advantage of "qualified'people either on type or in the business,Sky' has had it's share of the these people,but prior to that they only hired from the G/A industry in the main..
Happily the future bodes well for'upgrading 'in the ranks to the airlines...After 37 years with airlines one doesn't voice accrimony too loud..:ok:

Ouch,

i just photographed this plane a day before the accident.

Anyway, does it mean there's 2 pilot vacances coming up at SSV? Might help the market. :O

The guy running flt ops is R. Giguerre. Ex AC flt ops manager. He's not known to fire someone so easy but then again it's a major bo bo. Who knows. We all have our bad ones but this may require a second look at who's getting hired or cast a question on their training. Very unfortunate for the company. Maybe more so for the crew.

Knowing Rob, hiring practices AND training will change. These guys will be paying for this one for a long time. Insurance will probably go to FL390.

Blimey... better start looking for another career then judging by my performance yesterday!

It wouldn't surprise me to see some jigging & reskinning here - not a simple job, and certainly dependent on the market value of the bird (CSN, TSN...)

If ABX can reskin the entire belly of a DC-9 then nothing much can surprise me.

Nose first
 

A First Air 737 had a similar incident several years ago in Yellowknife and although the pictures I see of this one don't quite look as bad I suspect it will be a gonner like the 37 was. To bad as I have a friend who just finished his line check at SSV a monthe or so ago.

There are hard landings and hard landings....The 767 is a very different beast to land than the 757. It comes as no surprise to anyone on the East side of the Atlantic that SSv have managed this so quickly.

It is not the fault of the FO that managed an 11g landing, but the training department of a sub standard cheap skate airline that should be under immediate investigation of the Canadian CAA.

Those are very deliberate criticisms, I'm sure you'd like to expand on your facts. I for one would like to know how they are cheapskate etc. Didn't have that experience while I was with them.

Bruce - isn't Rob the COO of Skyservice now ? I would think he'll be horrified at this.

Mr Growbag from the eastern shores of the Pond - would you like to detail the evidence upon which you base your assertions on the implied chronic poor airmanship at SSV? I am sure we'd all like to hear where the bias or data to which you refer comes from.

Is there anyone on here from TC TSB (Transport Canada - or Canadian CAA Mr Growbag) who can shed light on what I consider these ridiculous rumours of chronic training and flightcrew selection deficiencies at SSV?

If anyone is going throw such dirt on here - or elsewhere, they neeed to be able to support their claims...I bet Mr Growbag wouldn't march into a terminal and start murmuring such things to passengers waiting to check-in...

Inuksuk, welcome to the internet.

A place for many where they can make outlandish statements and criticisms......and never have to substanciate a single shred of supporting evidence.

From my dealings with SSV, the drivers have been nothing but 100% professional in their duties.

Inuk. I believe you're right about Rob. Won't be easy to hide his frustration.
As for poor airmanship, I had never heard of any other incident regarding SSV prior to this one. They have been around long enough to have a good reputation in my view. Perhaps Mr. Growbag has more to add to his claims. Right then, let's hear them. I know SSV has done some flying in that side of the Atlantic so maybe Mr. GB knows something we don't.

The best way to handle Growbag is to http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/ignore.gif him.

Another reason to dump the monarchy?

You're right Bruce. Another reason to dump Betty Britain Inc.

By the way, didn't her off the rails off=spring, Charlie, bend a BAe 146 in a landing accident a few years back ?

Enough said. :E

With the terribly tight seat pitch offered by Skyserive, I'm surprised those sitting behind the crease didn't hit their head on the seat in front of them and injure themselves....

:)

Yeah, especially since the seat pitch in that area is 33" :8

I missed it on the news last night (must have something to do with my Directv subscription lol), but apparently Global National had the SSV incident on the news last night. As someone else questioned, not sure why it took 8 days to make a news story...

On another forum someone who had seen the story along with the video of the aircraft damage stated (on another forum):

What is it with people and finger pointing, none of us where there and so the facts are not actually known. I have to say that the majority of the ssv crews i have worked with have been very professional, no hint of shoddy training or management and their engineers have been excellent.

What i would say is that it could well be a write off if it hit the deck at 11g looking at the crumpled fuse there will be very serious structural damage internally.

I worked on this aircraft when it was delivered new from boeing to Manchester in 94?. Boeing had to come and change one of the main gears after the delivery flight. it will be a sad day if it is written off, like loosing an old friend.

People I've talked to say this could be related to Weight and Balance issuses. They could have loaded it wrong in YYZ or a few locks in the cargo holds could have broken allowing the cargo to shift, making it nose heavy on landing.

Pictures01 :

That's a great comment and could indeed potentially explain the incident.

Even an ultra- low time jock would have some difficulty in creasing the skin/crumpling the fuse like that without something having "cause and effect"...

Actually, the B767-300 is quite prone to this type of damage following a hard landing or hard nosewheel touchdown. I recommend reading the accident report found at:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502225.pdf

Although there are no pictures, I believe that the damage to the AA aircraft was very similar to what Skyservice has just experienced. An outfit in South America also had similar damage a while back. According to my sources, there are other similar accidents in the B767-300's history. As you can see in the AAIB report, Boeing stated that the fuselage was built to spec limits with no aditional margin (much like the A300 rudders). Boeing did make a change to the stringer strength in the later versions of the 767-300. I could not find the serial number for the SSV machine, but I'd be willing to bet it's one of the older ones, since MYT had it for quite a while.

As for the stories about G loads and other such nonsense, unless you have seen the FDRs, then you do not really know what you're talking about, now do you? Stop spreading BS and wait for the real investigators to do their job.

Here is the FAA bulletin:

FAA Flight Standards Information Bulletin: Derotation Accidents During Landings of B-757/767, DC-10, and MD-11 Aircraft

Boeing 767 - "Hard Landing"
 

As a passenger on the plane, who saw the pilots before they boarded, they both looked like kids. I was wondering if the training wheels were off of the plane. Appearently they were and much too soon! Now Skyservice is trying to offer the passengers $500 in the form of a hush coupon to get back on their plane. They had absolutely no accountability and acted like nothing happened on the return flight. It was all handled very poorly.

Furthery, the flight attendent was telling me that landings like that happen all of the time. Well, if that is the case, they are going out of business fast, with repairing and writing off planes all of the time. If thats their history, who needs them!

Crys 8494

Are you a professional pilot ?

Just wondering...

Not at all. Just a terrified and injured passenger. Despite what they are saying. People did get whiplash and my lower back has been hurting since.

crys8494,

I would like to know what you know about the 767-300 and hard landings if you wouldnt mind elaberating. Skyservice has a clean record. Out of its ten year history this has got to be the first mojor incident. Of course airlines have their IROP situations, I can't think of one Canadian airline that hasn't. The cause of this hard landing has not been determined and I would suggest that people not speculate on the cause until the reports are out.

Why is it that some passangers claimed that they didnt know anything occured till they steped out of the aircraft yet some claim monitures were falling from the ceilings etc. Something dosent make sence. I guess its easy to cry whip lash when your in prusuit of $$$

The pilot had control of the aircraft till it reached the gate. This is not the first time that this scenerio has accured on the 767-300. Regardless of who the pilot was this could have happened to someone with 30 years experance.

Well clearly you are doing some speculating yourself. I have pictures that show the masks and further damage inside of the plane! I also clearly felt 2 jumps followed by a very hard crash! You really do need to keep your opinoins to yourself when you do not know what you are talking about. I don't care what their record is. What I do care about is the rediculous manner in which they handled it. No...we did not realize the extent of the damage of the plane until we saw the outside and reviewed our own photos of the exterior, but we did know that something went very wrong. I also know that I was in tears, in fear for 2 days before getting back on the plane!

In sum, if you don't know what the heck you are talking about, keep it to yourself!

Further...I never once asked for money from them, only recognition of the accident rather that a sublime statement "Stuff like that happens all of the time." This is a quote directly from them. And there was clearly pilot error. This comes from many individuals who have flown many times in the past. As a matter of fact, before we hit, my husband commented "We are coming in too fast and on the wrong angle." I am not stating that it was pure pilot error, but pilot error was definately a key factor.

Finally, I noted an error I made in my last post....where I mentioned the damage noticed in the photos I should have said interior, not exterior.

Well Im not speculating actually. I did not refer to you once when I said that people were in search of money. I dont even know if thats the case. I said that it is easy for one to blow things out context in search of money, not once did i say you were asking for money.

Secoundly, I never said it wasn't pilot error, I said that one should wait until the reports are out before one makes an assumption regarding pilot error. If there was a shift in weight in the cargo hold that pilot just might have saved your life, and then again it might have been pilot error. Do you know if ATC had given them a fast approach speed by anychance due to a number of circumstances?

And I have seen pictures of the aircraft they are every where its hard not to. The 767-300 is known to wrinkle at the secound set of doors if you perform a search youll find that this isnt the first.

And thirdly....You were asking for information from an uniformed FA who probably wasnt even there. How fair is that. What did you want him or her to say. You cant expect to catch someone off gaurd like that and then expect them to explain the cause and effect of such an event. Im sure the company will release facts in due time.

Again, you read me very incorrectly. I did not ask a FA for any information. Simply ask that they recognize that passengers boarding the return flight home would be shaken and scared. But it was just the opposite. They were rude and passive, implying that it is common for planes to crumple and luggage and masks to fall from the ceiling. Knowing a number of people who have travelled hundreds of times, nobody has ever seen this before.

This may have happened before. I don't know. I never claimed to know the facts or the exact details. What I know is what happened on the plane and the effect on the passengers that is being ignored and passed by by individuals who were not there and do not know what happened. I ask you, have you ever been on a flight beside a mother holding a screaming child with a heavy carry-on bag hanging dangerously over the toddlers head?

And no, you may not have directly said that I was after money. But it has been stated that there were no injuries on news and in various forums. But nobody ever asked any passenger that I know of if they were ok or if they were hurt.

Skyservice told our travel rep that they would meet us all at the airport to speak with us. They did not. They can take their $500 gift certificate and shove it. I don't know if I will ever fly again, but I definately won't fly with them. Not so much because of the accident, but because of their rude and poor handling of it.

Well that is fine...maybe im reading you wrong. Your origianl post was quite immature, implying that the pilots were kids and required training wheels to fly the aircraft.

Maybe if your first post was a little bit more credible I would have taken your situation more seriously. Im not saying it wasnt a tramatic event for you or for the other passangers. When you dont fly on a regualr basis your not exposed to all the things that can happen I guess. To that flight attendant a hard landing is probably something that has been encountered before. I work for another charter and I have experianced them as well, like the FA said, they happen.

Hopefully youll fly again, but if you dont than i guess thats a choice you choose to follow.

Cheers