Flight School Help - Vancouver Area
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Toulouse
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could you perhaps give some specifics? I've only dealt with them by mail so far and they've been pretty thorough and patient answering my 1001 questions.
Otherwise I'm still looking for recent feedback from all of the aforementioned schools: ProIFR, CFC, PFC, VFC. Specifically relating to IFR and CPL training. I'll be visiting BC for a week this July so hope to visit a few of them, ideally even get checked out and rent a plane for a day or two. Also open to any feedback about other schools anywhere in BC.
On another note, what does the job market look like in BC at the moment? Can a newly minted commercial pilot realistically expect to find employment other than instructing? What level of income can one expect starting off? An important detail if you might have loan payments to make ;-)
Cheers
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Osaka
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Takira,
Could you perhaps give some specifics? I've only dealt with them by mail so far and they've been pretty thorough and patient answering my 1001 questions.
Otherwise I'm still looking for recent feedback from all of the aforementioned schools: ProIFR, CFC, PFC, VFC. Specifically relating to IFR and CPL training. I'll be visiting BC for a week this July so hope to visit a few of them, ideally even get checked out and rent a plane for a day or two. Also open to any feedback about other schools anywhere in BC.
On another note, what does the job market look like in BC at the moment? Can a newly minted commercial pilot realistically expect to find employment other than instructing? What level of income can one expect starting off? An important detail if you might have loan payments to make ;-)
Cheers
Could you perhaps give some specifics? I've only dealt with them by mail so far and they've been pretty thorough and patient answering my 1001 questions.
Otherwise I'm still looking for recent feedback from all of the aforementioned schools: ProIFR, CFC, PFC, VFC. Specifically relating to IFR and CPL training. I'll be visiting BC for a week this July so hope to visit a few of them, ideally even get checked out and rent a plane for a day or two. Also open to any feedback about other schools anywhere in BC.
On another note, what does the job market look like in BC at the moment? Can a newly minted commercial pilot realistically expect to find employment other than instructing? What level of income can one expect starting off? An important detail if you might have loan payments to make ;-)
Cheers
As I tell everyone I give advice to regarding flight schools, YOUR experience may be different. You may end up having a positive experience, as I am sure some others have. Also, your instructor can make all the difference. A great instructor can make up for a poor school.
Whenever asked about proifr I always advise people to stay away. Someone else on this forum described the owner as a “used car salesmen”, which is a perfect characterization. He is smooth talking and charming. However, I have known several people who have worked as instructors there. Their main focus is on profit. They will get you in their aircrafts flying as much as possible. In other words, have you fly more than necessary. Furthermore, they will be very friendly when first meeting you. They will tell you everything you want to hear. They will also tell you about how they can help you get a job after completing your training. This is a lie. They have ZERO interest in helping you get a job. Beware when speaking with a woman named Shannon. If she says,” our owner John Montgomery is well tapped into the industry......”, you are being “worked”. Like most businesses, they will say whatever they have to to get you to sign up and give them your money. After that, you will notice that they are not so interested in you anymore. I personally dealt with them a few times. The guy at the dispatch counter acted like he was annoyed to be there, and the management were quite incompetent. Making an appointment and then not being there at the specified time. Telling me they would do something and then forgetting. Telling me they would call me back about something then I didn't hear from them. There are better schools and you deserve better. I definitely recommend going to PFC instead. I would also recommend CFC over proifr.
Regarding the current state of the industry in Canada for new pilots, I will defer to someone more knowledgable. Someone posted some good info in another thread.
Also, at the beginning, do not expect to be making more than minimum income. You should be of the mind set that you are trading your time for experience that will help get your career started.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You should be of the mind set that you are trading your time for experience that will help get your career started.
NO. YOU. SHOULD. NOT.
If you hold a professional qualification that permits you to work for hire and reward - vis a vis the CPL and ATPL - and you have a job, then your career starts the day you walk through the doors of your first job. You are now a professional, and you are trading your expertise for a wage. While that wage is scaled - and rightly so - to your experience level, DO NOT consider that you are somehow of lesser value to the company than a more experienced pilot. Yes, you are still learning - but now you're learning about the business side of aviation, and business is business - if you give an owner an inch, they'll take a mile.
Let me put this another way: This is EXACTLY the mindset that has gotten our profession into the horrible position it is now. Too many junior pilots suggest that flying airplanes is cool, that we should be happy to accept whatever because our dreams are realized and that us in the older crowd just "don't get it" anymore. If you act like a kid in a candy store happy that the confectioner is handing you a small Hershey's Kiss, then that is what you're going to get for the rest of your career: Little pieces of chocolate while the big bars are sitting on the back wall, all going home to the confectioners kids. Act like a professional and expect to be paid like one. When it comes to contract time, find a way to get a piece of that big bar.
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Osaka
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NO. YOU. SHOULD. NOT.
If you hold a professional qualification that permits you to work for hire and reward - vis a vis the CPL and ATPL - and you have a job, then your career starts the day you walk through the doors of your first job. You are now a professional, and you are trading your expertise for a wage. While that wage is scaled - and rightly so - to your experience level, DO NOT consider that you are somehow of lesser value to the company than a more experienced pilot. Yes, you are still learning - but now you're learning about the business side of aviation, and business is business - if you give an owner an inch, they'll take a mile.
Let me put this another way: This is EXACTLY the mindset that has gotten our profession into the horrible position it is now. Too many junior pilots suggest that flying airplanes is cool, that we should be happy to accept whatever because our dreams are realized and that us in the older crowd just "don't get it" anymore. If you act like a kid in a candy store happy that the confectioner is handing you a small Hershey's Kiss, then that is what you're going to get for the rest of your career: Little pieces of chocolate while the big bars are sitting on the back wall, all going home to the confectioners kids. Act like a professional and expect to be paid like one. When it comes to contract time, find a way to get a piece of that big bar.
If you hold a professional qualification that permits you to work for hire and reward - vis a vis the CPL and ATPL - and you have a job, then your career starts the day you walk through the doors of your first job. You are now a professional, and you are trading your expertise for a wage. While that wage is scaled - and rightly so - to your experience level, DO NOT consider that you are somehow of lesser value to the company than a more experienced pilot. Yes, you are still learning - but now you're learning about the business side of aviation, and business is business - if you give an owner an inch, they'll take a mile.
Let me put this another way: This is EXACTLY the mindset that has gotten our profession into the horrible position it is now. Too many junior pilots suggest that flying airplanes is cool, that we should be happy to accept whatever because our dreams are realized and that us in the older crowd just "don't get it" anymore. If you act like a kid in a candy store happy that the confectioner is handing you a small Hershey's Kiss, then that is what you're going to get for the rest of your career: Little pieces of chocolate while the big bars are sitting on the back wall, all going home to the confectioners kids. Act like a professional and expect to be paid like one. When it comes to contract time, find a way to get a piece of that big bar.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, with some research you will see that this is not often accomplished. In fact, after talking to pilots in Canada, you may find that it is quite common to live near the poverty line for the initial period after finishing your training.
According to “Opportunity for All – Canada's First Poverty Reduction Strategy,” the calculated poverty line for Canada in 2018 varied between $16,436 to $20,389 for individuals. For a family of four (two adults, two children) the poverty line varied from $32, 871 to $40,777. For comparison purposes, later on, PayScale.com reports the median before-tax wage for the holder of a Bachelor’s degree in Canada is $57,000 while the median before-tax hourly rate is $21.00. Although I disagree with the principle, a Bachelor’s degree is used often as a comparator to the CPL.
The average first-year First Officer at Jazz or Encore will gross around $50,000 and will net an average of $41,613. This wage is hardly near the poverty line for an individual, although it becomes difficult to house and feed a family of four on a single income. Jazz is hiring pilots straight out of flight school, and Encore is getting close. Even just on the base salary, you’re looking at a gross of $37,000 and an average net of $31,127.
Granted, not everybody earns what a first-year employee at Jazz or Encore will earn. Some will gross nearer $30,000, netting an average of $25,835, which is still above the poverty line. In some cases, that leaves you with around $800 a month above the poverty line. That’s rent. That’s entertainment. That’s an impressive food budget for one person. That’s savings for retirement or a rainy day. That’s some serious payments towards student debt.
My first year as a flight instructor I grossed $20,000. $20,000 would net an average of $18,296 in 2018. That’s the poverty line, but I’m also 18 years out from my ab initio instructing days. I’ve no clue if a first-year instructor in 2019 would still make $20,000. Cost of Living (CoL) adjustments should suggest not. Even so, Canada's definition of the poverty line provides for shelter, a modestly healthy diet, and the bare requirements for living in a first-world, 21st-century society. Sure, you're not going to have an 85" 4K UHD TV with a PS4 Pro sitting on the shelf, an iPhone X in your pocket, and a fully fueled Subaru Impreza in the driveway. But then, that's not bare bones, is it?
Say you are earning a wage near the poverty line; how do you do better? Well, be a better instructor to your students, and they’ll spread the word. In my second year, I would have reached $30,000 or more because I put in the work with my students and it started to pay off through referrals. I never sought to take students from the other instructors, but those instructors were focused too much on their logbook and not their student’s wallet, and students know when they’re being taken for a ride. So, don’t take them for a ride.
As for the charter pilots, be a better First Officer. Captains at those places have some sway in who they fly with, and clients often have all the sway. If they like you, they’ll demand you. So, do better.
If, after six months in the job you need a morale boost, then I suggest you are focusing on the wrong things in life. One of my first Captains always said that no matter the job, you should do that job as though it is the only one you ever wanted in life. Aviation is not an industry for the faint of heart. It is not an industry that will hand you the golden goose or a silver platter. You must work for everything or the next person in line will steal your hours or your money. Be the best instructor you can be. Be the best First Officer you can be. Hell, be the best toilet scrubber you can be. I know a current 737 Captain who started his career scrubbing toilets in Yellowknife when the only job you could maybe get with 200 hours was a ramp job – and you thought you had hit the jackpot when you got that job. He scrubbed toilets and mopped the floors as though it was his childhood dream. The Virgin Mary would have been proud to take a dump in the toilets he cleaned.
What happened? At a time where it would take most pilots up to two years to get onto an airplane, he was in after six months. He put 100% into every job he ever did. He was never a yes man; he’d say no quite a bit. But by god, when he worked, he put everyone else to shame. He knew his stuff too. You never had to remind him about a rule or procedure. He continually studied the AIM, COM, AFM, and SOPs. Just under a year after getting his first flying gig, he was the most junior Captain we had ever promoted. A year and a half later he was a Captain on a 704 machine, and under a year later he was being trained as a Captain on a 705 machine.
So again, if after six months in this jobs climate you’re still wondering where your career has gone, don’t look to PPRuNe for the answer; chances are you’re on here too much already.
However, if 6 months after finishing your training you find yourself instructing or flying in a low-time position while making less money than a sales clerk at Home Depo (as is very common in Canada) I would then encourage you to re-read my previous post, stay positive, and enjoy the experience. One day when you are flying an Airbus you will look back on it as one of the funnest periods in your life.
What happened? At a time where it would take most pilots up to two years to get onto an airplane, he was in after six months. He put 100% into every job he ever did. He was never a yes man; he’d say no quite a bit. But by god, when he worked, he put everyone else to shame. He knew his stuff too. You never had to remind him about a rule or procedure. He continually studied the AIM, COM, AFM, and SOPs. Just under a year after getting his first flying gig, he was the most junior Captain we had ever promoted. A year and a half later he was a Captain on a 704 machine, and under a year later he was being trained as a Captain on a 705 machine.
So again, if after six months in this jobs climate you’re still wondering where your career has gone, don’t look to PPRuNe for the answer; chances are you’re on here too much already.
Last edited by +TSRA; 7th Apr 2019 at 08:00. Reason: Grammar
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Osaka
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, you’re talking to one, and I can tell you that while pilots may feel they are near the poverty line, that is quite often hyperbole.
According to “Opportunity for All – Canada's First Poverty Reduction Strategy,” the calculated poverty line for Canada in 2018 varied between $16,436 to $20,389 for individuals. For a family of four (two adults, two children) the poverty line varied from $32, 871 to $40,777. For comparison purposes, later on, PayScale.com reports the median before-tax wage for the holder of a Bachelor’s degree in Canada is $57,000 while the median before-tax hourly rate is $21.00. Although I disagree with the principle, a Bachelor’s degree is used often as a comparator to the CPL.
The average first-year First Officer at Jazz or Encore will gross around $50,000 and will net an average of $41,613. This wage is hardly near the poverty line for an individual, although it becomes difficult to house and feed a family of four on a single income. Jazz is hiring pilots straight out of flight school, and Encore is getting close. Even just on the base salary, you’re looking at a gross of $37,000 and an average net of $31,127.
Granted, not everybody earns what a first-year employee at Jazz or Encore will earn. Some will gross nearer $30,000, netting an average of $25,835, which is still above the poverty line. In some cases, that leaves you with around $800 a month above the poverty line. That’s rent. That’s entertainment. That’s an impressive food budget for one person. That’s savings for retirement or a rainy day. That’s some serious payments towards student debt.
My first year as a flight instructor I grossed $20,000. $20,000 would net an average of $18,296 in 2018. That’s the poverty line, but I’m also 18 years out from my ab initio instructing days. I’ve no clue if a first-year instructor in 2019 would still make $20,000. Cost of Living (CoL) adjustments should suggest not. Even so, Canada's definition of the poverty line provides for shelter, a modestly healthy diet, and the bare requirements for living in a first-world, 21st-century society. Sure, you're not going to have an 85" 4K UHD TV with a PS4 Pro sitting on the shelf, an iPhone X in your pocket, and a fully fueled Subaru Impreza in the driveway. But then, that's not bare bones, is it?
Say you are earning a wage near the poverty line; how do you do better? Well, be a better instructor to your students, and they’ll spread the word. In my second year, I would have reached $30,000 or more because I put in the work with my students and it started to pay off through referrals. I never sought to take students from the other instructors, but those instructors were focused too much on their logbook and not their student’s wallet, and students know when they’re being taken for a ride. So, don’t take them for a ride.
According to “Opportunity for All – Canada's First Poverty Reduction Strategy,” the calculated poverty line for Canada in 2018 varied between $16,436 to $20,389 for individuals. For a family of four (two adults, two children) the poverty line varied from $32, 871 to $40,777. For comparison purposes, later on, PayScale.com reports the median before-tax wage for the holder of a Bachelor’s degree in Canada is $57,000 while the median before-tax hourly rate is $21.00. Although I disagree with the principle, a Bachelor’s degree is used often as a comparator to the CPL.
The average first-year First Officer at Jazz or Encore will gross around $50,000 and will net an average of $41,613. This wage is hardly near the poverty line for an individual, although it becomes difficult to house and feed a family of four on a single income. Jazz is hiring pilots straight out of flight school, and Encore is getting close. Even just on the base salary, you’re looking at a gross of $37,000 and an average net of $31,127.
Granted, not everybody earns what a first-year employee at Jazz or Encore will earn. Some will gross nearer $30,000, netting an average of $25,835, which is still above the poverty line. In some cases, that leaves you with around $800 a month above the poverty line. That’s rent. That’s entertainment. That’s an impressive food budget for one person. That’s savings for retirement or a rainy day. That’s some serious payments towards student debt.
My first year as a flight instructor I grossed $20,000. $20,000 would net an average of $18,296 in 2018. That’s the poverty line, but I’m also 18 years out from my ab initio instructing days. I’ve no clue if a first-year instructor in 2019 would still make $20,000. Cost of Living (CoL) adjustments should suggest not. Even so, Canada's definition of the poverty line provides for shelter, a modestly healthy diet, and the bare requirements for living in a first-world, 21st-century society. Sure, you're not going to have an 85" 4K UHD TV with a PS4 Pro sitting on the shelf, an iPhone X in your pocket, and a fully fueled Subaru Impreza in the driveway. But then, that's not bare bones, is it?
Say you are earning a wage near the poverty line; how do you do better? Well, be a better instructor to your students, and they’ll spread the word. In my second year, I would have reached $30,000 or more because I put in the work with my students and it started to pay off through referrals. I never sought to take students from the other instructors, but those instructors were focused too much on their logbook and not their student’s wallet, and students know when they’re being taken for a ride. So, don’t take them for a ride.
As for the charter pilots, be a better First Officer. Captains at those places have some sway in who they fly with, and clients often have all the sway. If they like you, they’ll demand you. So, do better.
If, after six months in the job you need a morale boost, then I suggest you are focusing on the wrong things in life. One of my first Captains always said that no matter the job, you should do that job as though it is the only one you ever wanted in life. Aviation is not an industry for the faint of heart. It is not an industry that will hand you the golden goose or a silver platter. You must work for everything or the next person in line will steal your hours or your money. Be the best instructor you can be. Be the best First Officer you can be. Hell, be the best toilet scrubber you can be. I know a current 737 Captain who started his career scrubbing toilets in Yellowknife when the only job you could maybe get with 200 hours was a ramp job – and you thought you had hit the jackpot when you got that job. He scrubbed toilets and mopped the floors as though it was his childhood dream. The Virgin Mary would have been proud to take a dump in the toilets he cleaned.
What happened? At a time where it would take most pilots up to two years to get onto an airplane, he was in after six months. He put 100% into every job he ever did. He was never a yes man; he’d say no quite a bit. But by god, when he worked, he put everyone else to shame. He knew his stuff too. You never had to remind him about a rule or procedure. He continually studied the AIM, COM, AFM, and SOPs. Just under a year after getting his first flying gig, he was the most junior Captain we had ever promoted. A year and a half later he was a Captain on a 704 machine, and under a year later he was being trained as a Captain on a 705 machine.
So again, if after six months in this jobs climate you’re still wondering where your career has gone, don’t look to PPRuNe for the answer; chances are you’re on here too much already.
If, after six months in the job you need a morale boost, then I suggest you are focusing on the wrong things in life. One of my first Captains always said that no matter the job, you should do that job as though it is the only one you ever wanted in life. Aviation is not an industry for the faint of heart. It is not an industry that will hand you the golden goose or a silver platter. You must work for everything or the next person in line will steal your hours or your money. Be the best instructor you can be. Be the best First Officer you can be. Hell, be the best toilet scrubber you can be. I know a current 737 Captain who started his career scrubbing toilets in Yellowknife when the only job you could maybe get with 200 hours was a ramp job – and you thought you had hit the jackpot when you got that job. He scrubbed toilets and mopped the floors as though it was his childhood dream. The Virgin Mary would have been proud to take a dump in the toilets he cleaned.
What happened? At a time where it would take most pilots up to two years to get onto an airplane, he was in after six months. He put 100% into every job he ever did. He was never a yes man; he’d say no quite a bit. But by god, when he worked, he put everyone else to shame. He knew his stuff too. You never had to remind him about a rule or procedure. He continually studied the AIM, COM, AFM, and SOPs. Just under a year after getting his first flying gig, he was the most junior Captain we had ever promoted. A year and a half later he was a Captain on a 704 machine, and under a year later he was being trained as a Captain on a 705 machine.
So again, if after six months in this jobs climate you’re still wondering where your career has gone, don’t look to PPRuNe for the answer; chances are you’re on here too much already.
I especially like the part about being the best instructor you can be. Good advice.
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Toulouse
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you both for taking the time to write back. I've been in aerospace for about 15 years now and one notion I don't compromise on is that as a professional I expect to be fairly compensated for my skills and time, irrespective of how passionate I am about the task at hand. If I find flying in Canada as a junior pilot puts me in a position where I'm having trouble meeting my financial obligations then it's a no-go. The job market here in Europe is currently pretty healthy with very decent starting salaries for fresh pilots. So as much as I'd like to fly in Canada, at least for a while, it would only happen if and when the conditions are acceptable to me. I'll see how I feel about it after some more research and my visit this summer.
I've seen some good words in one of the other threads about the Langley Flying School and schools on Pitt Meadows, anyone know anything about those? There's a bunch of schools at Pitt Meadows so a bit difficult figuring out what's what online. I'd like to narrow down the list to about 4 schools to visit between all 3 airfields when I hop over, based on the feedback I see.
I've seen some good words in one of the other threads about the Langley Flying School and schools on Pitt Meadows, anyone know anything about those? There's a bunch of schools at Pitt Meadows so a bit difficult figuring out what's what online. I'd like to narrow down the list to about 4 schools to visit between all 3 airfields when I hop over, based on the feedback I see.
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Living Costs in Delta.BC
After so many emails, opinions of people around, and with some good faith, I'm looking to join ProIFR, Delta, BC. Since the only problem is I can't personally visit a flight school and check it according to my needs. I can only do my guesswork and apply for LOA to get my study permit.
If there is anything you guys know or want to add regarding schools in Vancouver, Or if you can recommend a better option (In whole Canada). That would be a great help.
Also, I need an estimate of living costs in Delta, BC. "I'm ready to opt for any feasible and optimal cost-cutting (Like living in a shared apartment and I can cook myself). How much it may go for a month??
If there is anything you guys know or want to add regarding schools in Vancouver, Or if you can recommend a better option (In whole Canada). That would be a great help.
Also, I need an estimate of living costs in Delta, BC. "I'm ready to opt for any feasible and optimal cost-cutting (Like living in a shared apartment and I can cook myself). How much it may go for a month??
