Gear Up Landings
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Gear Up Landings
In our little corner of the world, North Western Ontario, an area about the size of France, we seem to have a rash (at least one a year!) of guys just forgetting to put the gear down.
And, the excuses flow like the juice from a newly butchered pomegranate! It's just NEVER the pilot's fault. Poor chap is fatigued, or hungry, or stressed by company "culture"....and somehow it's okay to forget the gear.
The latest was in CYRL two days ago. A two pilot Navajo crew just forgot the gear.
How often does this happen Stateside? Internationally?
We have aviation colleges that train circuits, leaving the gear down???
Is this unique to Canada?
I don't suffer fools lightly.
WD
And, the excuses flow like the juice from a newly butchered pomegranate! It's just NEVER the pilot's fault. Poor chap is fatigued, or hungry, or stressed by company "culture"....and somehow it's okay to forget the gear.
The latest was in CYRL two days ago. A two pilot Navajo crew just forgot the gear.
How often does this happen Stateside? Internationally?
We have aviation colleges that train circuits, leaving the gear down???
Is this unique to Canada?
I don't suffer fools lightly.
WD
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Systemic Problems
It all boils down to lack of training, not adhearing to checklists and in the case of a multi crew environment, lack of CRM. Combine this with a lack of experience and its a recipe for the type of problem.
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777....just tossing this out there. I don't believe in written checklists. Not talking airline jets here. Oh, if something is amiss, by all means, pull out the checklist! I find, pilots miss things if they don't READ it! A simple interruption can derail ones train of thought. I don't need a checklist to drive my pickup truck....and you shouldn't NEED a checklist to put the gear down in an aircraft. Again, you're preaching excuses. There is NO excuse in my book for this. These turkeys should be flipping burgers.
WD
WD
Having come within a whisker of making a gear up landing in a Cheyenne 20+ years ago, I can tell you that it's not always black and white.
I will start by saying that we accepted full responsibility for what occurred. I was training with a very experienced captain on a new aircraft type (for him) and we were doing circuits at a controlled airport on a busy Sunday afternoon. We were using the longer runway while the tower had light aircraft doing circuits on the shorter one - even though the amount of crosswind was the same as the wind was splitting the two of them down the middle. The tower guy was spending a lot of time telling us about traffic in the other pattern - almost obsessively so and definitely to the point of distraction. I gave the trainee a simulated engine failure on the downwind and should have noticed that when the power lever on that engine was brought to idle the gear warning horn didn't sound. Due to the constant distractions from the tower guy I missed it. Because we were flying a single engine approach, neither of us noticed that he was carrying less thrust than we typically needed on an approach. As he was just starting the flare, he yelled, "****! No gear!" He immediately started a go-around. Unfortunately in the gusty conditions a wing dropped during the go-around and one of the propellers contacted the runway. We were quite fortunate that we didn't throw a blade. We brought it back with the damaged engine at idle and landed a few minutes later. After landing we discovered that the blades on the "good" propeller had also contacted the ground but only just barely.
Later on we learned that the micro switches for the landing gear warning system in the power quadrant had not been set properly during a recent maintenance inspection. They were not tightened down and had backed off to below the idle position so there was no way we would have received a gear warning.
This incident occurred within a few weeks of the decision which led to tower controllers in Canada no longer saying "check gear down" when issuing a landing clearance. Like I said, we were responsible and I accept that but there were definitely contributing factors and changing any one of them would probably have led to a better result.
I will start by saying that we accepted full responsibility for what occurred. I was training with a very experienced captain on a new aircraft type (for him) and we were doing circuits at a controlled airport on a busy Sunday afternoon. We were using the longer runway while the tower had light aircraft doing circuits on the shorter one - even though the amount of crosswind was the same as the wind was splitting the two of them down the middle. The tower guy was spending a lot of time telling us about traffic in the other pattern - almost obsessively so and definitely to the point of distraction. I gave the trainee a simulated engine failure on the downwind and should have noticed that when the power lever on that engine was brought to idle the gear warning horn didn't sound. Due to the constant distractions from the tower guy I missed it. Because we were flying a single engine approach, neither of us noticed that he was carrying less thrust than we typically needed on an approach. As he was just starting the flare, he yelled, "****! No gear!" He immediately started a go-around. Unfortunately in the gusty conditions a wing dropped during the go-around and one of the propellers contacted the runway. We were quite fortunate that we didn't throw a blade. We brought it back with the damaged engine at idle and landed a few minutes later. After landing we discovered that the blades on the "good" propeller had also contacted the ground but only just barely.
Later on we learned that the micro switches for the landing gear warning system in the power quadrant had not been set properly during a recent maintenance inspection. They were not tightened down and had backed off to below the idle position so there was no way we would have received a gear warning.
This incident occurred within a few weeks of the decision which led to tower controllers in Canada no longer saying "check gear down" when issuing a landing clearance. Like I said, we were responsible and I accept that but there were definitely contributing factors and changing any one of them would probably have led to a better result.
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I believe that pilots who fly amphibious airplanes are less likely to land with the gear up on a runway than pilots who fly straight retractable gear aircraft because they are used to identifying the surface they are landing on and making sure the gear selection is correct for the surface they are about to land on.
In other words.......don't land until you are sure the gear is in the correct position.
I never ever landed without my turning final check being correct.
My check is::::
" " Where am I landing and where is my gear? " ".
Twice during my career it was in the wrong position, both times turning a short final and I had to go around.
In other words.......don't land until you are sure the gear is in the correct position.
I never ever landed without my turning final check being correct.
My check is::::
" " Where am I landing and where is my gear? " ".
Twice during my career it was in the wrong position, both times turning a short final and I had to go around.
Not sure what is the standard for checks taught here in Canada (trained in Australia) but I was drilled to check the gear 3 times. Lower and hold the lever until the greens on Downwind, again on base, then the PUFF check on short final.
3 checks of the gear, to avoid having a gear up...
That been said, I do believe that there will be some situations, circumstances or instances where it could be possible to miss, depending out outside factors eg emergency, workload, confusion
3 checks of the gear, to avoid having a gear up...
That been said, I do believe that there will be some situations, circumstances or instances where it could be possible to miss, depending out outside factors eg emergency, workload, confusion
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A very basic article, but the statistic given is that Gear-Up landings occur "often as many as six or seven a week" in the United States. That's for piston retracts...it does not differentiate between commercial and private ops.
I've not flown GA for many years, but I remember throwing the checklists out the window and flying with GUMPS or the very long TMPFFIHC from my days in New Zealand. They're certainly handy, especially if you're flying three or four types like many instructors/scenic/et al. pilots do.
However, the transition to a multi-crew environment and getting into turbo-props and turbines adds another element that requires the use of checklists. Of course, we still use flows which are the same as mnemonics; we just back those up.
I agree that there are no excuses for forgetting to put the landing gear down. In saying that, there are certainly circumstances which may lead a crew to miss it. A 3 mile self-check is in my repertoire to avoid become one of the guys we're talking about and I'm certain something similar is used by other pilots.
Training is certainly at issue here. If you have a 350-400 hour pilot teaching a 200 hour pilot how to fly a light twin, there are going to be things that are missed in the training due to a lack of experience. Even if the instructor has 1,500 hours total time, that may all be circuit and training area time with little "real-world" exposure. Pair this up with two low time pilots in a commercial op, and suddenly the holes in the cheese are lining up.
A little more time focused on the airplane rather than on the people sitting at the end of the runway watching you land seems to be in order.
I've not flown GA for many years, but I remember throwing the checklists out the window and flying with GUMPS or the very long TMPFFIHC from my days in New Zealand. They're certainly handy, especially if you're flying three or four types like many instructors/scenic/et al. pilots do.
However, the transition to a multi-crew environment and getting into turbo-props and turbines adds another element that requires the use of checklists. Of course, we still use flows which are the same as mnemonics; we just back those up.
I agree that there are no excuses for forgetting to put the landing gear down. In saying that, there are certainly circumstances which may lead a crew to miss it. A 3 mile self-check is in my repertoire to avoid become one of the guys we're talking about and I'm certain something similar is used by other pilots.
Training is certainly at issue here. If you have a 350-400 hour pilot teaching a 200 hour pilot how to fly a light twin, there are going to be things that are missed in the training due to a lack of experience. Even if the instructor has 1,500 hours total time, that may all be circuit and training area time with little "real-world" exposure. Pair this up with two low time pilots in a commercial op, and suddenly the holes in the cheese are lining up.
A little more time focused on the airplane rather than on the people sitting at the end of the runway watching you land seems to be in order.
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Hey Wolfdog it looks like that Skycare Navajo was landed with the gear selected up.
Maybe this school has the training right?
Had they not selected gear up this accident would never have happened.
Maybe this school has the training right?
We have aviation colleges that train circuits, leaving the gear down???
Moderator
I was type training an experienced pilot on an amphibian yesterday, and came closer than I would have liked. I have trained him, as I do, that EVERY landing is preceded by speaking aloud, while verifying gear position is as required. I told him that he was on a 3 mile base to a water landing, and directing him toward the desired area. As it was to be his first glassy water landing, there was a bit of extra discussion. I told him to configure the plane for a glassing water landing. I was also focused on where we would land, for the greatest safety and training benefit.
While doing my independent "save butt, save face" check, I noticed that the wheels were still down. He was turning final at about 500 feet, and pulling power back. He was reading through the very brief checklist, but not actually touching or otherwise confirming what he was reading off the checklist. It was the shopping list, and he was just going in the door of the store.
I waited a few seconds for the best time (still 300 feet up), and calmly said "what about the gear?" then, before he had tome to do anything, called a go around. He did!
Between us, I expect that our total flying time exceeds 12,000 hours, with half of that is RG aircraft. We came closer that I liked to getting it really wrong. Had I solely relied on him, I'd be wet, and being written about on the internet.
Checking the gear has to be instinctive, and actually happen. It's configuration assurance, and it is a vital pilot skill and discipline.
While doing my independent "save butt, save face" check, I noticed that the wheels were still down. He was turning final at about 500 feet, and pulling power back. He was reading through the very brief checklist, but not actually touching or otherwise confirming what he was reading off the checklist. It was the shopping list, and he was just going in the door of the store.
I waited a few seconds for the best time (still 300 feet up), and calmly said "what about the gear?" then, before he had tome to do anything, called a go around. He did!
Between us, I expect that our total flying time exceeds 12,000 hours, with half of that is RG aircraft. We came closer that I liked to getting it really wrong. Had I solely relied on him, I'd be wet, and being written about on the internet.
Checking the gear has to be instinctive, and actually happen. It's configuration assurance, and it is a vital pilot skill and discipline.
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Checking the gear has to be instinctive, and actually happen. It's configuration assurance, and it is a vital pilot skill and discipline.
I flew amphibians for almost sixty years and my go home safe card was on every approach I always asked myself " Where am I landing....and ...where is my gear. " turning final......even when flying the Turbo Commander that was my check on every landing.
So far I have never made a mistake.....but did find the gear in the wrong position twice by doing my turning final check.
Good post Pilot Dar!!!!
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Wolfdog wrote:
With nearly 17,000 incident free hours in everything from two-seaters to the 4 engine Airbus I fly now, I can tell you those kinds of statements are pure ignorance. It might sound good around the flying club on a rain day but it's dangerous and nobody who has made a career from flying would ever say it.
It doesn't matter if it's your company SOP's or your own discipline to use them but it's checklists that will save you when you are overloaded, tired, in an abnormal situation etc etc. Remember, not all checklists are read and do, a lot of them are action confirmation. To not use them is simply bad airmanship.
By the way I've lurked on these forums for at least 13 years now that I can remember and it was your silly statement that finally prompted me to type something. Congratulations.
I don't believe in written checklists.
It doesn't matter if it's your company SOP's or your own discipline to use them but it's checklists that will save you when you are overloaded, tired, in an abnormal situation etc etc. Remember, not all checklists are read and do, a lot of them are action confirmation. To not use them is simply bad airmanship.
By the way I've lurked on these forums for at least 13 years now that I can remember and it was your silly statement that finally prompted me to type something. Congratulations.
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There is a time and a place for written check lists.
However there are times and places where one has to rely on flow and memory checks to safely fly the aircraft.....for instance spraying small fields in a helicopter is one time and place where I never used a written check list.
Maybe I should have insisted in another pilot with me to read a written check list to me?
However there are times and places where one has to rely on flow and memory checks to safely fly the aircraft.....for instance spraying small fields in a helicopter is one time and place where I never used a written check list.
Maybe I should have insisted in another pilot with me to read a written check list to me?
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Expatbrat, I beg to differ, in the flying I now do,{by the way, ex military, airline, flight testing ,charter company owner}} there is simply no place for reading checklists,{ excluding the "clean up' items after a failure of some kind of course} nor is there a need to use them, flow checks, ridged discipline on vital actions will, along with a REAL understanding of aircraft systems, get the job done without landing with the wheels in the wells. For myself, I just cant believe the nonsense which passes for checklists in some operations, such things as "call ground control after landing", have SFA to do with OPPERATING the aircraft, and just become background noise after time, I recently listened to an overseas operators last few minutes alive, the root cause of their demise was getting blindly into an electronic checklist which inhibited all the important stuff and intelligent thought, such as what are we doing and what are we headed for? in this case it was a pile of solid rocks, a simple in range check would have done the job, without the sudden stop! As Chuck stated, when I'm headed at a power line at the end of the field in our Ag Cat, deciding whether to go under or over, I doubt even you would be reading a checklist! Mind you, it cant be landed gear up unless you wiped the gear of on said power line.
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gear up landings quote from skygod dot com
You searched for: have will gear
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"There are two types of tailwheel (or retractable gear) pilot, those who have ground-looped (landed gear up) and those that will."
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"There are two types of tailwheel (or retractable gear) pilot, those who have ground-looped (landed gear up) and those that will."
— cliché
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Dogsride, more than a grain of truth to that, I own a British built 1936 bipe, free castoring tail wheel, totally ineffective ruder when tail down and 80% of the mass aft of the main gear axels, no main wheel braking unless FULL ruder {and only FULL ruder, is applied, not like a Tiger or Chipmunk with progressive brake steering} So far no ground loops , but we are very conservative when it comes to cross winds, might fit a tail wheel lock this winter coming. These oldies were of course meant to be landed into wind on grass, not black top with a cross wind.
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"There are two types of tailwheel (or retractable gear) pilot, those who have ground-looped (landed gear up) and those that will."
However I have landed retractable gear airplanes with the gear up thousands of times on the water.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 20th Jun 2014 at 21:12.
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ExpatBrat
Think I might have qualified my statement. Pity you didn't see fit to read all of it. BTW, all these "God's Gifts" to aviation will swear up and down, that they use a written checklist. One interruption, and the written checklist is toilet paper.
In my (since you're bringing it up) more than twenty-six thousand, accident free hours, I've always relied on a geographical scan (unless something is amiss, which went unnoticed by you in my first statement?) with great success.
If you NEED a written checklist to put the gear down, you NEED to be doing something else.
WD
Think I might have qualified my statement. Pity you didn't see fit to read all of it. BTW, all these "God's Gifts" to aviation will swear up and down, that they use a written checklist. One interruption, and the written checklist is toilet paper.
In my (since you're bringing it up) more than twenty-six thousand, accident free hours, I've always relied on a geographical scan (unless something is amiss, which went unnoticed by you in my first statement?) with great success.
If you NEED a written checklist to put the gear down, you NEED to be doing something else.
WD