WS 763s coming ?
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WS 763s coming ?
AvCanada, not the most reliable site, is reporting that WS have committed to up to 6 767-300s on dry lease, deliveries to start summer 2015. The Thomas Cook-flown services to HNL & OGG from YVR, YEG, and YYC end in the autumn of 2015, and the interval is probably good enough for WS to get ETOPS certification.
3 763s would be needed to support Hawaii. Any others would be deployed likely in Europe - GLA and MAN come to mind, possibly AMS. A 73G will be used on a new seasonal YYZ-YYT-DUB service starting next month, but I don't think the 73G could reach the continent. WS have an interline agreement with KL in place already, as well.
Also possible the 'extra' 763s could go south initially.
With more and more 763s being supplanted by 788s, lease rates could be quite favourable.
Thoughts ?
3 763s would be needed to support Hawaii. Any others would be deployed likely in Europe - GLA and MAN come to mind, possibly AMS. A 73G will be used on a new seasonal YYZ-YYT-DUB service starting next month, but I don't think the 73G could reach the continent. WS have an interline agreement with KL in place already, as well.
Also possible the 'extra' 763s could go south initially.
With more and more 763s being supplanted by 788s, lease rates could be quite favourable.
Thoughts ?
I must admit I'll be interested to see if they do take some 763's and put them across the Atlantic to Europe.
I have to say that I personally feel that GLA or EDI may be a fight to avoid for WS as you have an established Transat service running into the one and a second year AC Rouge running into the other. (same deal with MAN).
A couple of "possibles" might be Prestwick with the Scottish Government taking it over, there may be some favourable deals to resurrect the old services to Canada out of there. Also, I'm not sure that Aberdeen is big enough to take a loaded 763 but I think that it might be a bit of an overlooked market.
Having had my first WS flight last October, I'd be more than willing to try them across to Canada if the timing & departure point was right.
I usually fly on TS & I reckon that they have their costs about right for the level of service, but I'd prefer to fly from EDI as it's a major pain having to get through Glasgow city centre to get to the airport. At least with EDI, you don't have to schlep through the middle of the city to get to it. However, the season for AC Rouge is still a bit short, the costs are a bit high for what you get & they haven't realised that the holiday season in Scotland starts six weeks earlier than in the rest of the UK.
Will be watching with interest..........
I have to say that I personally feel that GLA or EDI may be a fight to avoid for WS as you have an established Transat service running into the one and a second year AC Rouge running into the other. (same deal with MAN).
A couple of "possibles" might be Prestwick with the Scottish Government taking it over, there may be some favourable deals to resurrect the old services to Canada out of there. Also, I'm not sure that Aberdeen is big enough to take a loaded 763 but I think that it might be a bit of an overlooked market.
Having had my first WS flight last October, I'd be more than willing to try them across to Canada if the timing & departure point was right.
I usually fly on TS & I reckon that they have their costs about right for the level of service, but I'd prefer to fly from EDI as it's a major pain having to get through Glasgow city centre to get to the airport. At least with EDI, you don't have to schlep through the middle of the city to get to it. However, the season for AC Rouge is still a bit short, the costs are a bit high for what you get & they haven't realised that the holiday season in Scotland starts six weeks earlier than in the rest of the UK.
Will be watching with interest..........
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A 788 would be a great fit for WJA in my eyes. Especially since Air Canada is receiving a lot of press receiving them up here.
Heck, Global news put a spot on TV for the JAL 787 arriving on the 6:00pm news when it came to YVR, and then a few weeks later, the 787 was on the news again from China Southern putting the 787 to YVR.
The 787 fuel savings would work great for WJA, and it would serve enough passengers and range for whatever they want to do soon. The only problem I could see is the long wait for one.
So I guess it comes down to 763 or a A330, but I don't think WJA will be going Airbus anytime soon.
Heck, Global news put a spot on TV for the JAL 787 arriving on the 6:00pm news when it came to YVR, and then a few weeks later, the 787 was on the news again from China Southern putting the 787 to YVR.
The 787 fuel savings would work great for WJA, and it would serve enough passengers and range for whatever they want to do soon. The only problem I could see is the long wait for one.
So I guess it comes down to 763 or a A330, but I don't think WJA will be going Airbus anytime soon.
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@RT787
The only problem? You don't see an issue with the cost? Leasing and operating a 763 will be a small fraction of the acquisition cost of a 787. Jumping the gun and buying 787's while they are just getting their feet wet in the wide body game not even knowing how successful or practical that venture will be, would be catastrophic to WJ should it not take as they expect.
The only problem? You don't see an issue with the cost? Leasing and operating a 763 will be a small fraction of the acquisition cost of a 787. Jumping the gun and buying 787's while they are just getting their feet wet in the wide body game not even knowing how successful or practical that venture will be, would be catastrophic to WJ should it not take as they expect.
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@RT787
The only problem? You don't see an issue with the cost? Leasing and operating a 763 will be a small fraction of the acquisition cost of a 787. Jumping the gun and buying 787's while they are just getting their feet wet in the wide body game not even knowing how successful or practical that venture will be, would be catastrophic to WJ should it not take as they expect.
The only problem? You don't see an issue with the cost? Leasing and operating a 763 will be a small fraction of the acquisition cost of a 787. Jumping the gun and buying 787's while they are just getting their feet wet in the wide body game not even knowing how successful or practical that venture will be, would be catastrophic to WJ should it not take as they expect.
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Historically it's a very dangerous thing to break the low-cost model that started things. However, I don't know how well WJ had thought this out.
Getting B763s could be the start of a slippery slope. I have to consider how Southwest is progressing these days as they were WJs inspiration.
Getting B763s could be the start of a slippery slope. I have to consider how Southwest is progressing these days as they were WJs inspiration.
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Justagigolo posted:
Southwest model was a good one for a time. The trouble is they are on the verge of becoming a "Legacy" carrier, IMHO, with a top heavy workforce. Growth as I understand it, within the pilot group, has stagnated and will stay that way until they start to see the large number of retirements in the coming years. However, their workforce on relative terms is still very expensive. They have carved their own niche market and seem they are happy to stay status quo. Westjet on the other hand clearly sees opportunity to expand while there isn't much expansion left available in Canada. However, Let us not forget that the 763's are just to bring the Hawaii flights back in house instead of outsourcing. That's a pretty positive step, wouldn't you agree? Nothing else, to my knowledge, has been announced yet, it's all pure speculation.
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Agree with much of the above. The TC service from YYC/YEG/YVR - HNL/OGG is due to expire next year, so WS have to act in some way. Moving to 763s seems reasonable as there will be plenty available. Costs and revenues will be in house, and the 763s will have tones more capability than the 73Gs currently used (i.e., no golf bags left behind), plus there is the possibility of developing freight haul both ways.
Expansion in Europe is clearly in the cards, and while the 73G is OK for DUB, it probably is not for the Continent - particularly if you want direct YYZ services. With the interline agreement with KL, I could see YYZ-YOW-AMS and YEG-AMS, both currently uncontested. Possibly YWG-AMS. WS have to be aware that AC will be operating a 319 LHR-AMS daily starting next month and could siphon some traffic from KL if destination is YOW/YEG, for example.
WS have long since abandoned a true LC model: premium service, FF program (of sorts), multiple interline agreements, etc. Their track record to date on financials indicate they know what they're doing.
Or, as I suggested in OP, 763s over the 3 needed for Hawaii could operate ex YYZ to sun destinations.
Southwest model was a good one for a time. The trouble is they are on the verge of becoming a "Legacy" carrier, IMHO, with a top heavy workforce. Growth as I understand it, within the pilot group, has stagnated and will stay that way until they start to see the large number of retirements in the coming years. However, their workforce on relative terms is still very expensive. They have carved their own niche market and seem they are happy to stay status quo. Westjet on the other hand clearly sees opportunity to expand while there isn't much expansion left available in Canada. However, Let us not forget that the 763's are just to bring the Hawaii flights back in house instead of outsourcing. That's a pretty positive step, wouldn't you agree? Nothing else, to my knowledge, has been announced yet, it's all pure speculation.
~~~~~~~~~
Agree with much of the above. The TC service from YYC/YEG/YVR - HNL/OGG is due to expire next year, so WS have to act in some way. Moving to 763s seems reasonable as there will be plenty available. Costs and revenues will be in house, and the 763s will have tones more capability than the 73Gs currently used (i.e., no golf bags left behind), plus there is the possibility of developing freight haul both ways.
Expansion in Europe is clearly in the cards, and while the 73G is OK for DUB, it probably is not for the Continent - particularly if you want direct YYZ services. With the interline agreement with KL, I could see YYZ-YOW-AMS and YEG-AMS, both currently uncontested. Possibly YWG-AMS. WS have to be aware that AC will be operating a 319 LHR-AMS daily starting next month and could siphon some traffic from KL if destination is YOW/YEG, for example.
WS have long since abandoned a true LC model: premium service, FF program (of sorts), multiple interline agreements, etc. Their track record to date on financials indicate they know what they're doing.
Or, as I suggested in OP, 763s over the 3 needed for Hawaii could operate ex YYZ to sun destinations.
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Donkey497...having started my career in Aberdeen I can safely say that it couldn't take a fully loaded 767 and a flight to Toronto is not really the market that ABZ would serve. The airports section has very interesting discussion on Aberdeen airport....and most of the talk is how the airport can serve the oil market better.
I don't believe WJ would be wise to try serving any Scottish city as I don't believe the market is there (Prestwick is too much of a pain to get to even though it has rail links). If WJ try transatlantic they are going up against a LOT of established carriers and routes......would be a tough slog to start with. Look at how many flights to London that BA and Air Canada do in the summer. Add in Transat to Gatwick and their other UK destinations.....I believe it would be tough to break in.
Connies4ever. Would AC ever fly direct AMS again from YYZ?
I don't believe WJ would be wise to try serving any Scottish city as I don't believe the market is there (Prestwick is too much of a pain to get to even though it has rail links). If WJ try transatlantic they are going up against a LOT of established carriers and routes......would be a tough slog to start with. Look at how many flights to London that BA and Air Canada do in the summer. Add in Transat to Gatwick and their other UK destinations.....I believe it would be tough to break in.
Connies4ever. Would AC ever fly direct AMS again from YYZ?
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Justagigolo77
Could very be a good thing. I was thinking about a new fleet type, less than 6, no economies of scale and with 6 - just barely there. Dry leases - in house mtce? or sub-contracted? In-house means extensive training in addition to mtce training that would already be req'd. Pilot training, engineering support,spares procurement and provisioning and other things. When I mentioned SW it was mainly because of the departure from one fleet type.
Could very be a good thing. I was thinking about a new fleet type, less than 6, no economies of scale and with 6 - just barely there. Dry leases - in house mtce? or sub-contracted? In-house means extensive training in addition to mtce training that would already be req'd. Pilot training, engineering support,spares procurement and provisioning and other things. When I mentioned SW it was mainly because of the departure from one fleet type.
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Connies4ever. Would AC ever fly direct AMS again from YYZ?
Married a Canadian
If YYZ-AMS direct were to resurface in the AC world, I think it would be as a AC "Rouge" op. Dense-pack 763.
Married a Canadian
If YYZ-AMS direct were to resurface in the AC world, I think it would be as a AC "Rouge" op. Dense-pack 763.
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meadowrun posted:
Could very be a good thing. I was thinking about a new fleet type, less than 6, no economies of scale and with 6 - just barely there. Dry leases - in house mtce? or sub-contracted? In-house means extensive training in addition to mtce training that would already be req'd. Pilot training, engineering support,spares procurement and provisioning and other things. When I mentioned SW it was mainly because of the departure from one fleet type.
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Agree with much of the above, BUT strategically, where can WS go in Canada ? Pretty much saturated. Plus much of US service is seasonal. I am not certain how WS is doing into LGA and other business-oriented spots, but with LGA and in the Canadian Golden Triangle, pretty clear PD is beating them.
So how do they expand ? Going to bigger a/c and ranging further afield is I think the first most obvious step to try. Yes, there are potential issues. The Chinese ideogram for "challenge" is actually two components: one represents "danger", the other "opportunity".
That's the crossroad WS is at right now. 763s are likely the lowest-danger pathway in the immediate future.
Could very be a good thing. I was thinking about a new fleet type, less than 6, no economies of scale and with 6 - just barely there. Dry leases - in house mtce? or sub-contracted? In-house means extensive training in addition to mtce training that would already be req'd. Pilot training, engineering support,spares procurement and provisioning and other things. When I mentioned SW it was mainly because of the departure from one fleet type.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agree with much of the above, BUT strategically, where can WS go in Canada ? Pretty much saturated. Plus much of US service is seasonal. I am not certain how WS is doing into LGA and other business-oriented spots, but with LGA and in the Canadian Golden Triangle, pretty clear PD is beating them.
So how do they expand ? Going to bigger a/c and ranging further afield is I think the first most obvious step to try. Yes, there are potential issues. The Chinese ideogram for "challenge" is actually two components: one represents "danger", the other "opportunity".
That's the crossroad WS is at right now. 763s are likely the lowest-danger pathway in the immediate future.
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Never been a big fan of the business saying "You have to grow or die", especially when it comes to going more international. There is still lot's for WJ to do in Canada looking at the route map. They are still mostly far flung point to point. Lot's still left to do to serve the domestic market although their regional division might be addressing that.
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It would be interesting to know the per-seat operating costs of vintage 763s versus the newer metal, composite sorry, currently available...
Don't forget Zoom tried much the same thing with 763s to Europe a while back and eventually 'crashed & burned'...
Air Transat will take some beating too with their A330 economics, value pricing and multiple destinations. (Their fly to one gateway, return from another without cost penalty is enough to secure our business each year.)
Am I the only person to note that WJ may have 'gone off the boil' a bit in this last 6 months??? I suspect they have been listening to Kevin O'Leary too much about the 'need' for Premium Seats. Those are fine.... but NOT at the expense of reduced
legroom for the other 80% of their passengers!!!
We'll see.
Don't forget Zoom tried much the same thing with 763s to Europe a while back and eventually 'crashed & burned'...
Air Transat will take some beating too with their A330 economics, value pricing and multiple destinations. (Their fly to one gateway, return from another without cost penalty is enough to secure our business each year.)
Am I the only person to note that WJ may have 'gone off the boil' a bit in this last 6 months??? I suspect they have been listening to Kevin O'Leary too much about the 'need' for Premium Seats. Those are fine.... but NOT at the expense of reduced
legroom for the other 80% of their passengers!!!We'll see.
