MOVING TO CANADA
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As a pilot with thousands of hours, family in Canada etc etc, I have applied/contacted/begged to get into Canada unsuccessfully. Unless you marry a Canadian or have a few years experience in another "wanted" job category(and then you can only work in that category, not as a pilot) you will not be able to get in. I Know This Cos I'm Trying Myself........and have been for the last 5 years!! I'm even considering studying something else and getting a few years experience in another field to get my family over there. Good Luck to you all, if you do get in, let me know how you did it and I'll try the same route.
Bureaucracies always run about five years behind events. When I came here I got points for children (almost enough to get in on that alone,) points for some money to start a business (not that much,) and points for my cabinet making City and Guilds, (lots of points.) Of course when I actually got here I found the place was awash with German and Swiss Cabinet Makers, really, really good ones, in a completely different league to me, all wandering around looking for jobs. Apparently the policy had been running for a few years and I was the latecomer!
Permanent Residency or Immigration is usually about you ability to fit the current policy. Otherwise it is pretty well impossible.
Permanent Residency or Immigration is usually about you ability to fit the current policy. Otherwise it is pretty well impossible.
Last edited by ChrisVJ; 1st Aug 2012 at 01:04.
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hi
UL still recruiting cadet pilots 3 times a year . But i need to get my cpl first . im still holding ppl only. i need to earn some money and start cpl and finish it off within couple of months. and mihin not recruiting. they have a type training programme which you have to pay alot.
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Can I just say to all of you who begrudge an "alien" taking natives jobs that you should really try living and looking for jobs in the UK!!!!!
Its not just aviation that is full of foreigners either.
As has already been mentioned, the back of a lorry route into Dover seems to work and we never catch all of them, but thats ok for others in the rest of the world, its not in your back yard!
Its not just aviation that is full of foreigners either.
As has already been mentioned, the back of a lorry route into Dover seems to work and we never catch all of them, but thats ok for others in the rest of the world, its not in your back yard!
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I am Canadian.
I have a relative who immigrated 13 years ago. Was an Electrical Engineer. Had family willing to sponsor him. Was told he did not have enough points to come to Canada. He had taken upon himself to get a Commercial Pilot's Lisense during the time he waited for his immigration interview. Right after being told he did not have enough points, he put his Canadian Pilots License on the interviewers desk and asked if his new Canadian License was worth any points. It was and he got in.
Well that was the easy part. He had to work the ramp pump gas, work the counter, loose jobs due to companys going bust.... BUT with perseverance he did finally get work flying light twins making deplorable wages and many times struggled to support himself. Worked for CAR 703 operators, then progressed to CAR 704 and finally CAR 705. Today he is a Captain with a Canadian Airline and he too is now a Canadian Citizen.
It is a very very long hard road. He got lucky in the end...but he could easily of not made it in aviation and have had to resort to his previous profession.
Canada is built on immigration and is a good opportunity for those willing to work hard to make a life for themselves. But don't expect that you will necessarily easily land into an airline job without going through all the hoops that most Canadian Pilots have had to go through to establish their careers.
You can do it. It will be difficult....but you can do it.
Wishing you the best of success.
I have a relative who immigrated 13 years ago. Was an Electrical Engineer. Had family willing to sponsor him. Was told he did not have enough points to come to Canada. He had taken upon himself to get a Commercial Pilot's Lisense during the time he waited for his immigration interview. Right after being told he did not have enough points, he put his Canadian Pilots License on the interviewers desk and asked if his new Canadian License was worth any points. It was and he got in.
Well that was the easy part. He had to work the ramp pump gas, work the counter, loose jobs due to companys going bust.... BUT with perseverance he did finally get work flying light twins making deplorable wages and many times struggled to support himself. Worked for CAR 703 operators, then progressed to CAR 704 and finally CAR 705. Today he is a Captain with a Canadian Airline and he too is now a Canadian Citizen.
It is a very very long hard road. He got lucky in the end...but he could easily of not made it in aviation and have had to resort to his previous profession.
Canada is built on immigration and is a good opportunity for those willing to work hard to make a life for themselves. But don't expect that you will necessarily easily land into an airline job without going through all the hoops that most Canadian Pilots have had to go through to establish their careers.
You can do it. It will be difficult....but you can do it.
Wishing you the best of success.
Join Date: Apr 2011
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"Bunkhog has it spot on. It is not necessarily immigration that it the issue. It is the Reciprocity. Try applying for an immigrants Visa to China and see how far you get."
Notice my location? I am a Canadian. I did it. So what is your point? That you dont really know diddley about that of which you speak? There is 875 of us here that I know of..And at least 100 or them are Canadian..Are there 100 Chinese nationals flying in Canada right now? Or does it not count for some reason or other unlike Sunwings .
To the OP.. Tough hall for a fresh CPL in Canada.
To firestorm..Welcome..We are not all like the posters here. Some of us have even been outside the borders of Canada.
I spent over 30 years flying in Canada.. Retired,and have now flown all over the world..The whole foreigner issue was started by a couple of Air
Transit types who realized Sunwings business model was better, and so made all sorts of claims about unfairness, none of which were supported by any evidence at all.Just inuendo...In fact, as the facts do come out, it appears over the last five years it turned out to be pretty balanced... And the cause got taken up by those in Canada that cant see past their nose and believe that even if you are not qualified, if you are Canadian, you should damn well get the job.
My family has hated foreigners ever since we came to this country.!
As to daddy's poor widdle boy...tell him to suck it up buttercup. Its a tough world out there.
Notice my location? I am a Canadian. I did it. So what is your point? That you dont really know diddley about that of which you speak? There is 875 of us here that I know of..And at least 100 or them are Canadian..Are there 100 Chinese nationals flying in Canada right now? Or does it not count for some reason or other unlike Sunwings .
To the OP.. Tough hall for a fresh CPL in Canada.
To firestorm..Welcome..We are not all like the posters here. Some of us have even been outside the borders of Canada.
I spent over 30 years flying in Canada.. Retired,and have now flown all over the world..The whole foreigner issue was started by a couple of Air
Transit types who realized Sunwings business model was better, and so made all sorts of claims about unfairness, none of which were supported by any evidence at all.Just inuendo...In fact, as the facts do come out, it appears over the last five years it turned out to be pretty balanced... And the cause got taken up by those in Canada that cant see past their nose and believe that even if you are not qualified, if you are Canadian, you should damn well get the job.
My family has hated foreigners ever since we came to this country.!
As to daddy's poor widdle boy...tell him to suck it up buttercup. Its a tough world out there.
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Trey... a few quick questions...how many Chinese pilots are waiting to gain enough experience to fill a seat in a medium sized jet in China...what is the total experience level these nationals have when they do get a job? Who pays for their training to even get the frozen ATPL (or whatever they need) and where is their training done? And are there enough to keep up with expansion? Does the company they eventually join pay for their endorsement? I would guess you are over there to fill a DEC as expansion allows for it? No qualified nationals with the experience. Your situation v the problem the home boys is a different problem...you aren't stealing any one's job, just filling in until they can staff it with a national, and they will. Then you retire or find another job. The situation in Canada is that there are qualified guys who can do the job, but it's cheaper and easier for these companies to play silly bugger with the rules and use foreign pilots to do Canadian work...not hard to see why these guys have a beef...why the vitriol though? Would you feel the same if it was you? Or would you have to suck it up buttercup as well?
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+1 LC,
if the foreign pilot problem was presented by Air Canada, I can tell you, you would not see a single euro pilot over the next winter. (Don't forget, EK is not allowed extra landing slots to protect Canadian jobs. I guess some jobs are worth more than others...)
I fly abroad and I know I will win a one way ticket home the day my local replacement is ready. Don't think Sunwing has any such plan...
if the foreign pilot problem was presented by Air Canada, I can tell you, you would not see a single euro pilot over the next winter. (Don't forget, EK is not allowed extra landing slots to protect Canadian jobs. I guess some jobs are worth more than others...)
I fly abroad and I know I will win a one way ticket home the day my local replacement is ready. Don't think Sunwing has any such plan...
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Sorry trey, but I'm an expat pilot too, and in this particular case you're just displaying your ignorance and if I dare say, your bias, which for some inexplicable reason seems to demonstrate a lack of respect for your former countrymen. There's a great letter posted on AvCanada at this link:
Letter to Citizenship and Immigration Canada
that lays the issues out pretty succinctly, supported quite amply with a great deal of facts, contrary to your claim. The tone is pretty reasonable, compared with your attempt to portray the people fighting this battle as somehow overly entitled. (It's Air Transat, not transit. Come on.)
Sunwing has a better business model? I guess that's a matter of perspective. It certainly does seem to be benefiting them to manipulate the intent of labour regulation to lower their costs, but it still fails to convince me of the longterm benefit to Canadians, of providing an excess of jobs to non-Canadians. I can't disagree that Sunwing has managed to gain a competitive advantage through their practices. But "better", in any sort of sustainable way? I have my doubts, given the constant race to the bottom. Of course this is everywhere these days, but can you blame those losing their jobs for fighting it?
As Left Coaster points out, the expat situation in places like China and the ME is not analogous and you know it. You and I have jobs because there simply aren't enough local pilots to keep the expansion moving. Forget qualified, rated, whatever, there aren't enough, period. If there were, and when there are, you and I will be gone in a heartbeat. Don't try and imply we work due to the generosity of our host countries, so why are the Canadians being so stingy?
And I think you are confusing "qualified" with "type-rated". I hold a B777 command rating, but no 737NG rating (I do have the -300/500 rating). Yet with those, my Canadian passport, and 10,000+ hours of experience I am - according to Sunwing/Canjet - not as "qualified" as a non-Canadian with a fraction of that experience...and oh yeah, that NG rating he bought in Europe.
So at least be honest enough to not try and frame it like the scammers at these airlines and pretend it's about a lack of qualifications or qualified Canadian pilots. It's just dollars and cents. I could at least respect that sort of forthrightness somewhat. But then, if these companies actually admitted that I guess they'd have a harder time getting away with the practice. Far easier to post an ad in the back pages of a non-aviation publication, asking for a specific type rating, and then exploit the CIC's ignorance of aviation to plead hardship when *SURPRISE* they can't find any takers. Classic straw man.
You really do a disservice to people who at the least, have a right to air their grievances, by muddying the waters with meaningless comparisons to expat jobs in Asia and whatever issues you've had in your past with foreigners. This is simply a case of a company exploiting a loophole and a (typically) useless government agency, and getting called on it by the people affected.
I applaud them.
Letter to Citizenship and Immigration Canada
that lays the issues out pretty succinctly, supported quite amply with a great deal of facts, contrary to your claim. The tone is pretty reasonable, compared with your attempt to portray the people fighting this battle as somehow overly entitled. (It's Air Transat, not transit. Come on.)
Sunwing has a better business model? I guess that's a matter of perspective. It certainly does seem to be benefiting them to manipulate the intent of labour regulation to lower their costs, but it still fails to convince me of the longterm benefit to Canadians, of providing an excess of jobs to non-Canadians. I can't disagree that Sunwing has managed to gain a competitive advantage through their practices. But "better", in any sort of sustainable way? I have my doubts, given the constant race to the bottom. Of course this is everywhere these days, but can you blame those losing their jobs for fighting it?
As Left Coaster points out, the expat situation in places like China and the ME is not analogous and you know it. You and I have jobs because there simply aren't enough local pilots to keep the expansion moving. Forget qualified, rated, whatever, there aren't enough, period. If there were, and when there are, you and I will be gone in a heartbeat. Don't try and imply we work due to the generosity of our host countries, so why are the Canadians being so stingy?
And I think you are confusing "qualified" with "type-rated". I hold a B777 command rating, but no 737NG rating (I do have the -300/500 rating). Yet with those, my Canadian passport, and 10,000+ hours of experience I am - according to Sunwing/Canjet - not as "qualified" as a non-Canadian with a fraction of that experience...and oh yeah, that NG rating he bought in Europe.
So at least be honest enough to not try and frame it like the scammers at these airlines and pretend it's about a lack of qualifications or qualified Canadian pilots. It's just dollars and cents. I could at least respect that sort of forthrightness somewhat. But then, if these companies actually admitted that I guess they'd have a harder time getting away with the practice. Far easier to post an ad in the back pages of a non-aviation publication, asking for a specific type rating, and then exploit the CIC's ignorance of aviation to plead hardship when *SURPRISE* they can't find any takers. Classic straw man.
You really do a disservice to people who at the least, have a right to air their grievances, by muddying the waters with meaningless comparisons to expat jobs in Asia and whatever issues you've had in your past with foreigners. This is simply a case of a company exploiting a loophole and a (typically) useless government agency, and getting called on it by the people affected.
I applaud them.
Last edited by nolimitholdem; 25th Aug 2012 at 12:29.
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Interesting that you all can use words like scammers. Maniputlating the regulations! The regulations are what they are.
The wronglful use of a company name was intentional.
I was trying to be the devil's advocate. Looks like I did not a bad job.
Now,, the prime point people are trying to claim is that there are qualified pilots in Canada. So lets look at what the word "qualified" means.
Does it mean you have an ATPL, or does it mean you have a type rating, time on type, and are current? The whole argument is going to hinge on this. I suggest that there are not qualified pilots in Canada looking for seasonal work.Give me some numbers to prove me wrong. Pilots with current type ratings and time on type. Who are unemployed
Now, whether the situation over here is different or not is not only a moot point, but begs the question. It is about the same number of pilots working overseas as foreign pilots working in Canada. The specific reasons for why each are in another country can well vary. Here it is a shortage of "qualified" domestic pilots...And we are back to what qualified actually means. Contrary to belief there are pilots over here, but while they have the license, they lack the rating and experience on type..Pretty much the same as in Canada.
You will notice that the folks that use the word qualified never actually define what that is. For a temporary, seasonal pilot in Canada, it is pretty much the same as everywhere else..Look at the job ads..Type rating..Time on type, Current..How did you get your overseas job? Did you get it with no time on type? Did you get it without a current rating?
The unfairness group on one hand states that no actual stats are available, and then goes on to conclude that they are unfair.
And then when some company looks at the rules, policy , and regulations, and complies with them, people call them scammers, and claim they are maniipulating. As far as I can tell, Sunwing is playing by the rules.
The real issue is that Sunwings is saving a whole pile of money on training costs, which, if they had to pay it for seasonal employees would not work well. That savings is giving them a competative advantage. But politicans will not get involved so it has been personalized to make it seem like Canada has a bunch of pilots who are qualified are being denied work due to foreign pilots.
The people behind this unfairness work for a competitor. It is that simple in my mind.
Now flame away.. I have thick skin.
The wronglful use of a company name was intentional.
I was trying to be the devil's advocate. Looks like I did not a bad job.
Now,, the prime point people are trying to claim is that there are qualified pilots in Canada. So lets look at what the word "qualified" means.
Does it mean you have an ATPL, or does it mean you have a type rating, time on type, and are current? The whole argument is going to hinge on this. I suggest that there are not qualified pilots in Canada looking for seasonal work.Give me some numbers to prove me wrong. Pilots with current type ratings and time on type. Who are unemployed
Now, whether the situation over here is different or not is not only a moot point, but begs the question. It is about the same number of pilots working overseas as foreign pilots working in Canada. The specific reasons for why each are in another country can well vary. Here it is a shortage of "qualified" domestic pilots...And we are back to what qualified actually means. Contrary to belief there are pilots over here, but while they have the license, they lack the rating and experience on type..Pretty much the same as in Canada.
You will notice that the folks that use the word qualified never actually define what that is. For a temporary, seasonal pilot in Canada, it is pretty much the same as everywhere else..Look at the job ads..Type rating..Time on type, Current..How did you get your overseas job? Did you get it with no time on type? Did you get it without a current rating?
The unfairness group on one hand states that no actual stats are available, and then goes on to conclude that they are unfair.
And then when some company looks at the rules, policy , and regulations, and complies with them, people call them scammers, and claim they are maniipulating. As far as I can tell, Sunwing is playing by the rules.
The real issue is that Sunwings is saving a whole pile of money on training costs, which, if they had to pay it for seasonal employees would not work well. That savings is giving them a competative advantage. But politicans will not get involved so it has been personalized to make it seem like Canada has a bunch of pilots who are qualified are being denied work due to foreign pilots.
The people behind this unfairness work for a competitor. It is that simple in my mind.
Now flame away.. I have thick skin.
Last edited by treykule; 25th Aug 2012 at 14:23.
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Watch what will happen to Canadian expats when Canada closes it's borders to foriegn pilots.
As one poster said before "He will win a one way ticket home again."
Problem won't be resolved because experienced guys will be back home again.
It's easy to scoff at, but I have seen it happen before.
As one poster said before "He will win a one way ticket home again."
Problem won't be resolved because experienced guys will be back home again.
It's easy to scoff at, but I have seen it happen before.
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Lilflyboy...how do you figure that? Canada's expat pilots will be sent home by whom? It's unclear by your statement who exactly you are referring to...are you saying that if Canada ends it's current policy of balanced (well maybe not to some people) numbers of temporary workers, or stops these companies from wetleases, that all the Canadian expat pilots around the world will be sent home? What a pants load that is! Let's see your facts please?
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Lilflyboy, if Canada closes its borders tomorrow, nothing will happen to us expats. When country x has enough local "talent", then they will kick us out (a la SQ). In the sandpit, we will be just fine for a looong while. China is another case, just go to your local flight school and have a look at their students. BTW, the chinese students have their training FULLY paid by their gov. including type rating. And Trey, I was hired as an experienced non-typed pilot here in the ME, didn't have to pay a dime!
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European and African countries for a start. For them, a political "Well screw you too" move is far more important than logic.
Middle East and China are far less fickle. As long as they are crewed, right up until the point you are no longer needed, they will be all smile and handshakes.
Although in saying that. Maybe Canada could learn from the African countries. All they need is a handful of locals that are out of work and the permits stop flowing.
Middle East and China are far less fickle. As long as they are crewed, right up until the point you are no longer needed, they will be all smile and handshakes.
Although in saying that. Maybe Canada could learn from the African countries. All they need is a handful of locals that are out of work and the permits stop flowing.
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Good luck sheron
Hey sheron. Good luck with your endeavor of coming to Canada. It's not easy from your point of career, but get some experience and you'll be fine. Canada always needs immigrants. They are in the process of changing the deal, but that won't last forever. Aviation is hard to get into here. So if you have some jet time it helps huge.
Good luck
Good luck
