Air Canada Age 60 Limit To End
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Originally Posted by 767-300ER
Maybe I have seen the agreement, and maybe not...but why don't you ask your illustrious legal team to publish it on their website??? So ask the other side to publish the agreement....and if they won't, why not???? What do they have to hide????
So we are all still speculating as to its content. The most we know about it is what the MEC Chair told us about it in his newsletter announcing it. Evidently, you know more than we do about it.
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The only reason that this whole issue is in front of the CHRT and the CIRB is because of several greedy pilots from ACPA shrouding themselves in the cloak of "human rights"...full stop.
The AC pilot's pension plan language has been there years, and guess what, it was never declared illegal by anyone...it's only a problem when someone complains... The CHRT wasn't going around looking in Collective Agreements to see if every clause was in compliance with the legislation.
I take no lessons from CUPE, and frankly anyone who does, should be a little ashamed of themselves. CUPE, the union that would bankrupt Air Canada if they got their way by ensuring that Service Directors get pay equity with First Officers...need anyone say anymore?
The AC pilot's pension plan language has been there years, and guess what, it was never declared illegal by anyone...it's only a problem when someone complains... The CHRT wasn't going around looking in Collective Agreements to see if every clause was in compliance with the legislation.
I take no lessons from CUPE, and frankly anyone who does, should be a little ashamed of themselves. CUPE, the union that would bankrupt Air Canada if they got their way by ensuring that Service Directors get pay equity with First Officers...need anyone say anymore?
This issue is in front of the CIRB because ACPA forgot they are a trade union and have legal obligations. They wear that one...no one else. And you can be thankful someone has undertaken to remind them of that fact because YOU might have been the next person they decided to cast off.
Finally, yes we can take lessons from CUPE and should. In fact we should take lessons from anybody who does anything better and smarter than we do. The old saying "you wouldn't recognize a good idea if it ran you over in a cement truck" applies here, as it does in far too many instances at Air Canada and ACPA.
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This is over the heads of the CHRT and will ultimately be decided by the courts.
There are many Professions in Canada (including the Law Profession) that mandates Retirement age. Whether by Collective Agreement (as in our case) or simply Corporate policy.
The thought the every single Pilot, that has ever retired from Air Canada, can simply come waltzing back is ridiculous.
Pinning this on ACPA is absurd. Leave it to the Courts and see what happens. They are the big picture department and the decision will impact every working person in Canada.
Unlike the Socialist Clowns down at the CHRT.
In the intervening time, welcome back boys....better stay awake!
There are many Professions in Canada (including the Law Profession) that mandates Retirement age. Whether by Collective Agreement (as in our case) or simply Corporate policy.
The thought the every single Pilot, that has ever retired from Air Canada, can simply come waltzing back is ridiculous.
Pinning this on ACPA is absurd. Leave it to the Courts and see what happens. They are the big picture department and the decision will impact every working person in Canada.
Unlike the Socialist Clowns down at the CHRT.
In the intervening time, welcome back boys....better stay awake!
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They are the big picture department and the decision will impact every working person in Canada.
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ACPA fights to keep age-60 rule
Air Canada's pilots union fights to keep age-60 rule
Air Canada's pilots union fights to keep age-60 rule
By Mary Kirby
Air Canada's pilots union has appealed to the country's Federal Court to maintain a mandatory age-60 retirement rule at the carrier.
The Federal Court is conducting hearings into the matter this week, after a rights tribunal determined that two Air Canada pilots were unfairly forced to retire after reaching age 60, and called for their reinstatement.
"We are asking the Federal Court to reaffirm that the law and previous Supreme Court decisions recognize our members' democratic right to determine their age of retirement through collective bargaining," says Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) president Captain Paul Strachan.
Retirement at age 60 is currently set in the Air Canada pilots' contract and pension plan. The ACPA warns that the Federal Court's decision "could potentially impact the wages and benefits of thousands of federally-regulated employees working under collective agreements containing a fixed age of retirement".
The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal recently decided to reinstate two retired Air Canada pilots, although it did not extend the reinstatement to all Air Canada pilots. The reinstatement comes on condition that each pilot hold a valid pilot license, a medical certificate showing that he is fit to fly, and current instrument flight rating.
Counsel for ACPA will argue that the tribunal erred at law by ignoring Supreme Court decisions which found it acceptable for employers and employees to negotiate a normal age of retirement.
A recent survey of more than 1,800 Air Canada pilots showed that 82% supported retirement at age 60 or younger, according to the ACPA.
Air Canada's pilots union fights to keep age-60 rule
Air Canada's pilots union fights to keep age-60 rule
By Mary Kirby
Air Canada's pilots union has appealed to the country's Federal Court to maintain a mandatory age-60 retirement rule at the carrier.
The Federal Court is conducting hearings into the matter this week, after a rights tribunal determined that two Air Canada pilots were unfairly forced to retire after reaching age 60, and called for their reinstatement.
"We are asking the Federal Court to reaffirm that the law and previous Supreme Court decisions recognize our members' democratic right to determine their age of retirement through collective bargaining," says Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) president Captain Paul Strachan.
Retirement at age 60 is currently set in the Air Canada pilots' contract and pension plan. The ACPA warns that the Federal Court's decision "could potentially impact the wages and benefits of thousands of federally-regulated employees working under collective agreements containing a fixed age of retirement".
The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal recently decided to reinstate two retired Air Canada pilots, although it did not extend the reinstatement to all Air Canada pilots. The reinstatement comes on condition that each pilot hold a valid pilot license, a medical certificate showing that he is fit to fly, and current instrument flight rating.
Counsel for ACPA will argue that the tribunal erred at law by ignoring Supreme Court decisions which found it acceptable for employers and employees to negotiate a normal age of retirement.
A recent survey of more than 1,800 Air Canada pilots showed that 82% supported retirement at age 60 or younger, according to the ACPA.
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W5.
It is very important to note, that it is a survey, not a specific poll, re the fly past 60 issue.
Less than 50% of the pilots responded to the poll, when you get the real numbers. There are 3300 pilots at ac. Only, 1800 responded, and of that amount, only 82% were in favour of not going past 60. Less than 50% of the pilots.
If, acpa, wanted to get real with their numbers, they would do a specific poll, and ask how many pilots wanted to be able, to fly past 60, at their choice. The retirement age can stay at 60, if a pilot wants to retire then, but it would not be mandatory.
acpa has never, had more than 50% of the pilots wanting to keep the age of 60, as the mandatory retirement age.
It is very important to note, that it is a survey, not a specific poll, re the fly past 60 issue.
Less than 50% of the pilots responded to the poll, when you get the real numbers. There are 3300 pilots at ac. Only, 1800 responded, and of that amount, only 82% were in favour of not going past 60. Less than 50% of the pilots.
If, acpa, wanted to get real with their numbers, they would do a specific poll, and ask how many pilots wanted to be able, to fly past 60, at their choice. The retirement age can stay at 60, if a pilot wants to retire then, but it would not be mandatory.
acpa has never, had more than 50% of the pilots wanting to keep the age of 60, as the mandatory retirement age.
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ACPA fights to keep age-60 rule
"We are asking the Federal Court to reaffirm that the law and previous Supreme Court decisions recognize our members' democratic right to determine their age of retirement through collective bargaining," says Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) president Captain Paul Strachan.
A recent survey of more than 1,800 Air Canada pilots showed that 82% supported retirement at age 60 or younger, according to the ACPA.
I see a problem here.
Vilven and Kelly, or Thwaites et al, returning to work or working past 60 does not restrict anyone from retiring at age "60 or younger".
So then the next question is, "What is the problem if you can still retire at 60?"
The answer is..... "We won't make as much money if we let them have their human right to continue working past 60".
Who looks greedy now?
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Originally Posted by Johnny767
There are many Professions in Canada (including the Law Profession) that mandates Retirement age. Whether by Collective Agreement (as in our case) or simply Corporate policy. The thought the every single Pilot, that has ever retired from Air Canada, can simply come waltzing back is ridiculous.
Every single pilot that ever retired from Air Canada can come back? Is the rock that you are living under the big one in Australia?
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Originally Posted by ACPA President Paul Strachan
A recent survey of more than 1,800 Air Canada pilots showed that 82% supported retirement at age 60 or younger, according to the ACPA.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Note very carefully the wording: "82% supported retirement at age 60 or younger." Not 82% supported retirement mandatory retirement at age 60 or younger.
Who doesn't support the option to retire at age 60 or younger. That is not the proper question. The issue before the Tribunal and the courts is whether the retirement at age 60 should be mandatory.
According to the survey, what percentage of pilots supported mandatory retirement at age 60? Instead of couching the media message in the form of a statistic that is expressly intended to mislead the public and the union membership, why not state the truth?
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Give me a break. Now you are going to nitpick the wording of the question? Everyone who answered it knew they were talking about MANDATORY retirement at age 60. Thats the way it is now and thats what the question was refering to.
You can twist it anyway you like.. The vast majority of pilots who participated in the wawcon survey supported retirement exactly the way it is now.
You can twist it anyway you like.. The vast majority of pilots who participated in the wawcon survey supported retirement exactly the way it is now.
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BCFLYER
You would be well advised to re read the acpa poll, and the acpa survey, that I posted ealier on this forum.
acpa, is not giving you and the membership, real numbers. They are providing watered down, disinformation to all of us.
I have posted the following "poll" and "survey" from acpa. The only 2 acpa accounts of any actual membership numbers.
Note:
there is no "vast majority".
Never, was.
Less than 50% of the total pilots at ac have indicated that they want mandatory retirement at 60. Please, read the poll numbers, and the survey numbers. They both show less than 50% of the total amount of ac pilots want this.
It is acpa's numbers, just read the poll, and the survey numbers. They are availables on the acpa site, if you are an acpa member?
You would be well advised to re read the acpa poll, and the acpa survey, that I posted ealier on this forum.
acpa, is not giving you and the membership, real numbers. They are providing watered down, disinformation to all of us.
I have posted the following "poll" and "survey" from acpa. The only 2 acpa accounts of any actual membership numbers.
Note:
there is no "vast majority".
Never, was.
Less than 50% of the total pilots at ac have indicated that they want mandatory retirement at 60. Please, read the poll numbers, and the survey numbers. They both show less than 50% of the total amount of ac pilots want this.
It is acpa's numbers, just read the poll, and the survey numbers. They are availables on the acpa site, if you are an acpa member?
Last edited by 777longhaul; 25th Nov 2010 at 05:46. Reason: updates
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The acpa mec posted their wawcon numbers. See acpa mec bulletin #27 on the acpa site, dated July 01 2010.
Your suggestion does not even suggest acpa has the correct data. Please...look at the numbers, of those who responed to the entire surrvey, and the total number of pilots who could have responded. This is to the entire survey, not just the age 60 issue(s).
This is from the acpa bulletin sent out to all the pilots.
forward over the summer
end++++++++++++
It would serve all those who are opposed to the age 60 issue, to get real, honest information from acpa, and from their Age 60 Committee. When you get it, please, post it here, so we can all see the light of day.
Of the 58 percent who bothered to reply, only 80% of them were in favor of fighting the age 60 issue. So, 80% of 58% (of the total pilots) is the actual number, that expressed as personal desire to continue the fight, at the risk of loosing WAWCON gains, what a joke. This is less numbers, than the IVR vote in May of 2006. acpa, is screwing you over, and using your dues to do it with, does that not cause any of you to be concerned that you are not getting proper representation, and that the majority of the pilots do not want to trade bargining power, for the age 60 issue.
AC is doing exacatly what they planned, they have the pilots fighing each other, so that they will blow off contract gains, to get some pie in the sky result, that the laws of the land will shoot down very soon.
Over a decade of downhill sliding due to seniority fighting, pension fighing, and now the age 60 issue. Ever wonder why ac is so against the age 60 issue??? It will save them money if it was changed. They know they have lost, yet they spoon feed acpa and the pilots in general. What a loss for ALL the pilots.
Your suggestion does not even suggest acpa has the correct data. Please...look at the numbers, of those who responed to the entire surrvey, and the total number of pilots who could have responded. This is to the entire survey, not just the age 60 issue(s).
This is from the acpa bulletin sent out to all the pilots.
MEC Newsletter #27
July 1, 2010
July 1, 2010
Fellow Pilots:
I will provide just a very brief report in this holiday week.
WAWCONThank you once again for providing your input through the WAWCON survey. The Wilson Center, which
conducted the survey and is in the process of analyzing the results, reports that a total of 1,880 pilots
completed the survey, for a participation rate of 58 per cent. This is a good turnout, as the Wilson Center has
been getting closer to 50 per cent participation in surveys of pilots at other companies. They also report that
the demographics of our sample are very good, with strong participation from all ranks and bases.
Once complete, the Wilson Center’s analysis will be reported through our WAWCON Committee and the
results will be used by our Negotiating Committee to create our bargaining strategy and priorities as we move
I will provide just a very brief report in this holiday week.
WAWCONThank you once again for providing your input through the WAWCON survey. The Wilson Center, which
conducted the survey and is in the process of analyzing the results, reports that a total of 1,880 pilots
completed the survey, for a participation rate of 58 per cent. This is a good turnout, as the Wilson Center has
been getting closer to 50 per cent participation in surveys of pilots at other companies. They also report that
the demographics of our sample are very good, with strong participation from all ranks and bases.
Once complete, the Wilson Center’s analysis will be reported through our WAWCON Committee and the
results will be used by our Negotiating Committee to create our bargaining strategy and priorities as we move
forward over the summer
end++++++++++++
It would serve all those who are opposed to the age 60 issue, to get real, honest information from acpa, and from their Age 60 Committee. When you get it, please, post it here, so we can all see the light of day.
Of the 58 percent who bothered to reply, only 80% of them were in favor of fighting the age 60 issue. So, 80% of 58% (of the total pilots) is the actual number, that expressed as personal desire to continue the fight, at the risk of loosing WAWCON gains, what a joke. This is less numbers, than the IVR vote in May of 2006. acpa, is screwing you over, and using your dues to do it with, does that not cause any of you to be concerned that you are not getting proper representation, and that the majority of the pilots do not want to trade bargining power, for the age 60 issue.
AC is doing exacatly what they planned, they have the pilots fighing each other, so that they will blow off contract gains, to get some pie in the sky result, that the laws of the land will shoot down very soon.
Over a decade of downhill sliding due to seniority fighting, pension fighing, and now the age 60 issue. Ever wonder why ac is so against the age 60 issue??? It will save them money if it was changed. They know they have lost, yet they spoon feed acpa and the pilots in general. What a loss for ALL the pilots.
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There is NO CURRENT IVR VOTE POLL showing that 80% of ALL ac pilots favor fighting the age 60 issue(s). THAT is a lie.
If you really believe that bs, from acpa, why dont you man up, and show us the certified results?
THE LAST IVR VOTE WAS IN 2006. LESS than 50% of the pilots voted to fight the issues. The age 60 IVR vote that was used in the current news release by acpa.
The vote was taken in 2006. Not 2010. The rules, were different then.
For those of you, who like to see that 80% of the pilots supported the mandatory retirement of 60. Do the math, less than 50% of the ac pilots supported the age 60 issue.
IVR # 72
May 8 2006
Certified, Audited results:
3083 eligible voters
1840 voted
1382 yes
0458 no
so only 1382 of 3082 voted yes. LESS than 1/2 the members voted to fight this. acpa is not, representing its members.
A new poll, which acpa would never do, would show even less yes votes.
The world has changed, and so should acpa,ac, and the individuals who only see the world in the rearview mirror.
If....acpa, wanted to, they could have another IVR vote, They dont want to, as they clearly know that less than 1/2 of the pilots wanted to fight this issue. And that was way back in 2006. All the rules have changed.
The special interest group(s) that are running acpa, and ran acpa in the past, are closed to any type of change, except the specific ones that they are after.
Have any of you seen a briefing from the Age 60 Committee in recent times?
Has acpa clearly told any of you what they think is going to happen?
If you really believe that bs, from acpa, why dont you man up, and show us the certified results?
THE LAST IVR VOTE WAS IN 2006. LESS than 50% of the pilots voted to fight the issues. The age 60 IVR vote that was used in the current news release by acpa.
The vote was taken in 2006. Not 2010. The rules, were different then.
For those of you, who like to see that 80% of the pilots supported the mandatory retirement of 60. Do the math, less than 50% of the ac pilots supported the age 60 issue.
IVR # 72
May 8 2006
Certified, Audited results:
3083 eligible voters
1840 voted
1382 yes
0458 no
so only 1382 of 3082 voted yes. LESS than 1/2 the members voted to fight this. acpa is not, representing its members.
A new poll, which acpa would never do, would show even less yes votes.
The world has changed, and so should acpa,ac, and the individuals who only see the world in the rearview mirror.
If....acpa, wanted to, they could have another IVR vote, They dont want to, as they clearly know that less than 1/2 of the pilots wanted to fight this issue. And that was way back in 2006. All the rules have changed.
The special interest group(s) that are running acpa, and ran acpa in the past, are closed to any type of change, except the specific ones that they are after.
Have any of you seen a briefing from the Age 60 Committee in recent times?
Has acpa clearly told any of you what they think is going to happen?
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Thoughts while trying to fall asleep on the wrong side of my body clock: Why are certain posters still hammering away here? If it all is such a slam dunk, why do they not just sit quietly and rub their hands in joyful anticipation of the sound of the Brinks truck backing up? (Oooops, sorry, I meant to say in joyful anticipation of the restoration of the dignity that was snatched so ignobly from them when they fell victim to such horrible discrimination...) If ACPA are as inept as they say, and the issue is as clear cut as some would have us believe (not sure how many on here actually...so many sound like the same person...) then they have nothing at all to worry about, do they?
IMHO, I think they are actually getting a little worried....hmmmm
p.s. Anyone want to hazard a guess on how Mssrs. V and K would have voted on contractual retirement age as they rose through the ranks at AC in their respective pursuits of lifestyle and equipment status?
I think we all know the answer to that one, don't we?
IMHO, I think they are actually getting a little worried....hmmmm
p.s. Anyone want to hazard a guess on how Mssrs. V and K would have voted on contractual retirement age as they rose through the ranks at AC in their respective pursuits of lifestyle and equipment status?
I think we all know the answer to that one, don't we?
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ACPA has never told the members how much money they have spent so far defending age 60.
ACPA has never told the members how much liability they are exposing them to.
ACPA has never told the members the realistic odds of winning the VK case.
ACPA has never told the members the realistic odds of winning, or anything for that matter, about the Thwaites case due for an imminent ruling.
ACPA has never told the members anything at all about the next approximately 70 cases after that, or the open ended number sure to keep on coming.
ACPA has never told the membership what legal advice they received regarding this issue, unlike CUPE who was completely open and honest with their membership.
ACPA has never given the members an objective analysis of mandatory retirement in Canada, how the issue is evolving, and what it means for Air Canada pilots.
ACPA has never presented to the membership anything but the most dire scenario of career destruction if mandatory retirement is abolished. They have never investigated or even considered any options to mitigate the inevitable end of mandatory retirement, and they for sure have never encouraged the membership to think along those lines.
What ACPA has done is conveniently ignore the fundamental losses while touting the small victories as proof that their take on the issue will prevail. Much of our membership seems willing to accept this fantasy at face value without asking any questions, and is inexplicably disinterested in knowing the answers they should be demanding from our union.
ACPA can hold as many surveys and votes as they want, but until they give the membership the information they need to make an informed choice it is as legitimate as an election in Zimbabwe.
ACPA has never told the members how much liability they are exposing them to.
ACPA has never told the members the realistic odds of winning the VK case.
ACPA has never told the members the realistic odds of winning, or anything for that matter, about the Thwaites case due for an imminent ruling.
ACPA has never told the members anything at all about the next approximately 70 cases after that, or the open ended number sure to keep on coming.
ACPA has never told the membership what legal advice they received regarding this issue, unlike CUPE who was completely open and honest with their membership.
ACPA has never given the members an objective analysis of mandatory retirement in Canada, how the issue is evolving, and what it means for Air Canada pilots.
ACPA has never presented to the membership anything but the most dire scenario of career destruction if mandatory retirement is abolished. They have never investigated or even considered any options to mitigate the inevitable end of mandatory retirement, and they for sure have never encouraged the membership to think along those lines.
What ACPA has done is conveniently ignore the fundamental losses while touting the small victories as proof that their take on the issue will prevail. Much of our membership seems willing to accept this fantasy at face value without asking any questions, and is inexplicably disinterested in knowing the answers they should be demanding from our union.
ACPA can hold as many surveys and votes as they want, but until they give the membership the information they need to make an informed choice it is as legitimate as an election in Zimbabwe.
Last edited by engfireleft; 25th Nov 2010 at 13:58.
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ACPA can hold as many surveys and votes as they want, but until they give the membership the information they need to make an informed choice it is as legitimate as an election in Zimbabwe.
One also may wonder if Zimbabwean 'Campaign Managers' would post under multiple usernames while accusing the 'Government' of dishonesty and ineptness....
One also may wonder if Zimbabwean 'Campaign Managers' would post under multiple usernames while accusing the 'Government' of dishonesty and ineptness....
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Why are certain posters still hammering away here? If it all is such a slam dunk, why do they not just sit quietly and rub their hands in joyful anticipation of the sound of the Brinks truck backing up?
IMHO, I think they are actually getting a little worried....hmmmm
I think we all know the answer to that one, don't we?
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I like to make informed decisions Trop_rider as I'm sure you do under any circumstances other than this one. If you are aware of the union providing any of the things mentioned in my post above please tell me where I can find it.
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Originally Posted by enginefireleft
ACPA has never ...
ACPA has never complied with its duty to fairly represent all of its members.
At the last Toronto general council meeting, the Base Chair stated, "We don't represent those people..." meaning, not just the retired pilots who have filed complaints, but the pilots who object to their impending mandatory retirement.
Like, it can pick and choose the select groups of its members that it represents and doesn't represent (the "in" crowd) with impugnity, despite its legal obligation under the Canada Labour Code to fairly represent all of its members, and despite the fact that those members pay the same proportion of union dues as the ones that it says that it does represent.
What other union in Canada has joined in legal proceedings in support of the employer's termination of employment of their own members? Talk about precedent!
Can't wait for the chickens to come home to roost.