Air Canada Age 60 Limit To End
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I did ... he clearly indicated that Mr. Kelly had not spoken to the media. As he stated, there were no press reports or articles quoting Mr. Kelly.
It is Mr. Vilven and Mr. Hall that are quoted in the Toronto Star article of July 26th.
It is Mr. Vilven and Mr. Hall that are quoted in the Toronto Star article of July 26th.
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"The Fly Past 60 Coalition has been advised by both George Vilven and Neil Kelly that neither pilot is refusing to accept re-employment in any capacity whatsoever, be it in the Embraer First Officer position or in any other position, subject to the same types of provisos and conditions mentioned by ACPA in its newsletter of July 23rd. "
This utterly ******* disgusts me.
Up the creek ?
or in a hole - hard to tell.
No one questions age discrimination is illegal. Given the venom that seems to run in the veins on many of the AC pilots it will only take one "decent" contingency lawyer and a few pissed of "old" guys to take ACPA to the cleaners big time. Expect AC to cut and run at the appropriate point leaving ACPA holding a big smelly bag load.
You cannot continue to defy the law because you don't think it is fair. This reminds me of the MLB umpires who marched with their union into oblivion.
I find it hard to believe AC management could execute any plan, let alone a cunning plan, but it does seem like they will end up owning the pilots.
The irony is you could very well have the pilots who support age 60 working till 70 to pay off the settlement to the pilots "retired" under age 60.
Lewis Carroll would have loved it.
No one questions age discrimination is illegal. Given the venom that seems to run in the veins on many of the AC pilots it will only take one "decent" contingency lawyer and a few pissed of "old" guys to take ACPA to the cleaners big time. Expect AC to cut and run at the appropriate point leaving ACPA holding a big smelly bag load.
You cannot continue to defy the law because you don't think it is fair. This reminds me of the MLB umpires who marched with their union into oblivion.
I find it hard to believe AC management could execute any plan, let alone a cunning plan, but it does seem like they will end up owning the pilots.
The irony is you could very well have the pilots who support age 60 working till 70 to pay off the settlement to the pilots "retired" under age 60.
Lewis Carroll would have loved it.
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Keep believing in a slam dunk gents. If this passes entirely as you envision it there will be unpleasant consequences for the FP60 victors. All legal and negotiated. Read, status pay and redistribution of wealth. The contract will be up for renewal and the negatively affected membership will speak with their votes. This strata of pilots will also be the future keepers of the pension plan. Before you guys go out buy new cars and boats with your fellow pilots money consider the domino effect from and outright victory...just say`in.
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Every province and territory has done away with mandatory retirement based on age because of its discriminatory nature. The federal government is in the process of doing so. ICAO has gone to 65. Developed countries the world over are eliminating mandatory retirement or dramatically upping the age because of economic and demographic reasons. Every aviation company in Canada is age 65 or higher. Canadian society has considered mandatory age based retirement discriminatory for quite some time. And if ACPA and many of our pilots are too self-absorbed or just plain dumb enough to not notice any of this...the CHRT explicitly told us on August 28th, 2009 that what we were doing was discriminatory. Is anybody getting the picture yet?
To anybody looking at us from the outside we must appear to be unbelievably stupid.
Now ACPA has further demonstrated their irresponsibly stupid refusal to accept reality by signing an MOU with the company that clearly violates not only the letter of the law, but the spirit of their obligation to provide equal and unbiased representation to every one of their members.
Those individual members claiming retribution through contract realignment are equally as dense because they cannot see that they are only hurting themselves. They cannot see what they do to older pilots will apply equally to them when they reach that age.
Stupid...stupid...stupid.
To anybody looking at us from the outside we must appear to be unbelievably stupid.
Now ACPA has further demonstrated their irresponsibly stupid refusal to accept reality by signing an MOU with the company that clearly violates not only the letter of the law, but the spirit of their obligation to provide equal and unbiased representation to every one of their members.
Those individual members claiming retribution through contract realignment are equally as dense because they cannot see that they are only hurting themselves. They cannot see what they do to older pilots will apply equally to them when they reach that age.
Stupid...stupid...stupid.
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I have one very basic question.
Has there been any legal proceeding launched against ACPA that the membership has not yet been advised of? If yes, what is ACPA's response and is there any end in sight to this crap?
Has there been any legal proceeding launched against ACPA that the membership has not yet been advised of? If yes, what is ACPA's response and is there any end in sight to this crap?
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Re stupid stupid stupid.....
the only thing stupid is to think that we (the juniors) don't get it.
Enginefireleft: you say the samy will apply to us when we reach the age..... we will NEVER be affected the same way.... because we will not have seen the advancement up to the senior positions and then allowed to stay extra. There is only one group that would reap a windfall gain, and I suspect that you belong to that group. Please stop telling us that it would also benefit us later on. Just not true. Again, it is about career earnings, full stop. I'd have to work longer just to make the same, get it!
And have LESS time available to me to enjoy my retirement, get it!
Parc, Rishworth, Flightdeck..... all are looking for experienced commanders.
Somewhere higher up someone said that the EU has changed. Just not true. A couple of LH pilots tried to do what you are doing here a short while ago, and even under the "new EU anti-discrimination laws" they lost.
This is long from over,
Joseph Keisinger
the only thing stupid is to think that we (the juniors) don't get it.
Enginefireleft: you say the samy will apply to us when we reach the age..... we will NEVER be affected the same way.... because we will not have seen the advancement up to the senior positions and then allowed to stay extra. There is only one group that would reap a windfall gain, and I suspect that you belong to that group. Please stop telling us that it would also benefit us later on. Just not true. Again, it is about career earnings, full stop. I'd have to work longer just to make the same, get it!
And have LESS time available to me to enjoy my retirement, get it!
Parc, Rishworth, Flightdeck..... all are looking for experienced commanders.
Somewhere higher up someone said that the EU has changed. Just not true. A couple of LH pilots tried to do what you are doing here a short while ago, and even under the "new EU anti-discrimination laws" they lost.
This is long from over,
Joseph Keisinger
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Intelligent response 777ER. There is another law out there that has stood the test of time and is not up for judicial review. Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You may be able to fly way past 60 but will you want to once the contract has had a makeover courtesy of the people that have been adversly affected by your actions ? It's obvious you guys don't care. To quote your lawyer "so be it".
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12345
"the only thing stupid is to think that we (the juniors) don't get it."
"you say the samy will apply to us when we reach the age..... we will NEVER be affected the same way.... because we will not have seen the advancement up to the senior positions and then allowed to stay extra. There is only one group that would reap a windfall gain, and I suspect that you belong to that group."
If you want to start the advancement, career expectation / earnings argument again please include that EVERY junior pilot you refer to started their career at AC as either direct entry First Officers and some lucky people were direct entry Captains
On the other hand, practically EVERY pilot retiring in the last while and probably the next 5 years or so was forced to spend between 5 - 12 years as a Second Officer.
As you you aptly pointed out " it is about career earnings, full stop"
MTK
"the only thing stupid is to think that we (the juniors) don't get it."
"you say the samy will apply to us when we reach the age..... we will NEVER be affected the same way.... because we will not have seen the advancement up to the senior positions and then allowed to stay extra. There is only one group that would reap a windfall gain, and I suspect that you belong to that group."
If you want to start the advancement, career expectation / earnings argument again please include that EVERY junior pilot you refer to started their career at AC as either direct entry First Officers and some lucky people were direct entry Captains
On the other hand, practically EVERY pilot retiring in the last while and probably the next 5 years or so was forced to spend between 5 - 12 years as a Second Officer.
As you you aptly pointed out " it is about career earnings, full stop"
MTK
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itsaliving66
"Intelligent response 777ER. There is another law out there that has stood the test of time and is not up for judicial review. Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You may be able to fly way past 60 but will you want to once the contract has had a makeover courtesy of the people that have been adversly affected by your actions ? It's obvious you guys don't care. To quote your lawyer "so be it".
While on the subject of intelligent responses:
There's a reason why every position of importance in this world is usually filled by older people. It's called experience and having the ability to see the big picture.
Your viewpoint is what is called " Biting your nose off to spite your face" or "can't see the forest because the trees keep getting in the way"
Best of luck in life with that outlook on problem solving.
MTK
"Intelligent response 777ER. There is another law out there that has stood the test of time and is not up for judicial review. Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You may be able to fly way past 60 but will you want to once the contract has had a makeover courtesy of the people that have been adversly affected by your actions ? It's obvious you guys don't care. To quote your lawyer "so be it".
While on the subject of intelligent responses:
There's a reason why every position of importance in this world is usually filled by older people. It's called experience and having the ability to see the big picture.
Your viewpoint is what is called " Biting your nose off to spite your face" or "can't see the forest because the trees keep getting in the way"
Best of luck in life with that outlook on problem solving.
MTK
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Macktheknife give me a break. Must of been real tough on you to spend 5-10 years in a cosy backend job flying all over the world after you started at Air Canada in your early twenties as that was the average age getting hired at that time.
In reality now all of the group hired in the last 10-15 years spent the time you were relaxing in the back seat out in the bush somewhere making hardly anything and working their asses off flying some piece of junk in brutal weather. Then this group finally gets hired in their mid thirties (this is now the average age to be hired) and STILL has to spend 5-10 years in the back seat or worse EMJ F/O.
And then we are told you would like to keep flying as long as you can and hold our careers back even more!!!!!
Greedy is what it is!!
In reality now all of the group hired in the last 10-15 years spent the time you were relaxing in the back seat out in the bush somewhere making hardly anything and working their asses off flying some piece of junk in brutal weather. Then this group finally gets hired in their mid thirties (this is now the average age to be hired) and STILL has to spend 5-10 years in the back seat or worse EMJ F/O.
And then we are told you would like to keep flying as long as you can and hold our careers back even more!!!!!
Greedy is what it is!!
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Hey MTK, I'm not slagging people older than me or of any defined age for that matter. My point is simple, just like Raymond's, that denial will not serve anyone well. You guys seem to think that there would be no negative consequences to a FP60 slam dunk. Go ahead dream big. I'm merely suggesting not to be so naive.
To the other poster referencing the s/o position, been there done that, and the pay scale off flat salary was well into the six figures at about the 6 year mark well over a decade ago. PG (B scale) pilots today are in the sixties.
To the other poster referencing the s/o position, been there done that, and the pay scale off flat salary was well into the six figures at about the 6 year mark well over a decade ago. PG (B scale) pilots today are in the sixties.
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"In a separate development, the Fly Past 60 Coalition announced today that more than 60 active Air Canada pilots and force-retired Air Canada pilots filed a 58-page complaint with the Canada Industrial Relations Board on August 2nd alleging that ACPA has breached its duty of fair representation to them, in contravention of Section 37 of the Canada Labour Code. "
Wow Ray, 60 guys out of 3000! I'm glad to see the vast majority respect their junior colleagues.
Wow Ray, 60 guys out of 3000! I'm glad to see the vast majority respect their junior colleagues.
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Wow Ray, 60 guys out of 3000! I'm glad to see the vast majority respect their junior colleagues.