SMS and Canadian Aviation Safety
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As long as the shell game played by TCCA and the Minister of Transport is allowed to be played Canadian aviation will remain where it is, just another third world mentality.
The answer lies in a new organization of engineers and pilots that answer only to their own management team.
Screw TC.
Screw the Minister of Transport.
Screw all the organizations that already exist because they have changed nothing at the small charter level.
If companies will not follow the rules already in force they will go out of business if no one will work for them.
A well organized association of engineers and pilots can have the power to change the system
Why would I remove the above grizzled?
The above is my opinion based on having worked with and for the regulator and also having had to use the legal system to force them to obey the very laws they are supposed to enforce.
The answer lies in a new organization of engineers and pilots that answer only to their own management team.
Screw TC.
Screw the Minister of Transport.
Screw all the organizations that already exist because they have changed nothing at the small charter level.
If companies will not follow the rules already in force they will go out of business if no one will work for them.
A well organized association of engineers and pilots can have the power to change the system
Why would I remove the above grizzled?
The above is my opinion based on having worked with and for the regulator and also having had to use the legal system to force them to obey the very laws they are supposed to enforce.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 10th Oct 2009 at 19:44.
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Originally Posted by 4Greens
For: dhc2widow; got the email ok. Its why I started this post.
Chuck,
If you knew me -- or looked at my posting history -- you'd realise how silly it sounds to accuse me of wanting only my own opinions on prrune (or elsewhere). My point (as other readers understand) was simply this: your attack on LC looks just plain weird when counter posed to your earlier post about TC. Having said that, leave it up there for all to see as long as you like!
Now . . . . check your PM's and let’s leave this shall we?
For everyone interested in the general question of "what is a safety management system?" the TC website (under "system safety") describes the intent, philosophy, structures, etc quite well. The Australian CAA website also has good information, as does ICAO. Kirsten's summary is spot on, in that the intent is (generally) to establish a standard methodology (under a standard philosophical framework) for the creation, institution, and function of a system and structure intended to constantly identify, address, correct, and learn from safety hazards in a particular company or environment.
in Canada's case (at least in TC's realm as aviation regulator) it's the role, philosophy, legislation and mandate of the regulator that are (IMO) a threat to safety levels, in terms of oversight of SMS. (More to follow another time; I'm in an airport terminal building between segments of a lonnggg trip.)
grizz
If you knew me -- or looked at my posting history -- you'd realise how silly it sounds to accuse me of wanting only my own opinions on prrune (or elsewhere). My point (as other readers understand) was simply this: your attack on LC looks just plain weird when counter posed to your earlier post about TC. Having said that, leave it up there for all to see as long as you like!
Now . . . . check your PM's and let’s leave this shall we?
For everyone interested in the general question of "what is a safety management system?" the TC website (under "system safety") describes the intent, philosophy, structures, etc quite well. The Australian CAA website also has good information, as does ICAO. Kirsten's summary is spot on, in that the intent is (generally) to establish a standard methodology (under a standard philosophical framework) for the creation, institution, and function of a system and structure intended to constantly identify, address, correct, and learn from safety hazards in a particular company or environment.
in Canada's case (at least in TC's realm as aviation regulator) it's the role, philosophy, legislation and mandate of the regulator that are (IMO) a threat to safety levels, in terms of oversight of SMS. (More to follow another time; I'm in an airport terminal building between segments of a lonnggg trip.)
grizz
This press release yesterday from the TSB reinforces the point made by many: Without adequate oversight, an SMS is neither complete nor valid. Which in turn means dependence on SMS, without adequate oversight as part of the formula, can (and therefore will) lead to a reduction in levels of safety.
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Communiqués - A07A0134
grizz
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Communiqués - A07A0134
grizz
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Confidential sources advise:
SafeSkies Newsletter Vol. 1, No. 8 | SafeSkies.ca
there was a meeting of the National Executive last week, and among other decisions, the implementation of SMS into the 703/704 sector will be pushed back to January 2011, at the earliest.
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Here is a group where you can post your experiences with SMS in Canadian Aviation
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Interesting idea there Flatface. A review of your posting history suggests you might have an experience of your own to relay. This is a very similar idea to that of the SafeSkies "Whistleblower Project".
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In very simple terms, SMS is a method of pro-active safety - a company comes up with a plan as to how they will deal with safety issues as they arise, in order to pro-actively implement safety-related system changes before they increase in severity to incidents/accidents.
It's an excellent idea and being mandated by ICAO. However, IMHO, for SMS to work (besides being tailored to different sectors/operator sizes) it depends on two things.
1) Continuing traditional oversight methods during implementation and until fully adopted and proven results are seen.
2) Guaranteed (legislated) whistleblower protections for both public and private sector workers.
Transport Canada is doing neither of these things, and that is why many people are outraged.
It's an excellent idea and being mandated by ICAO. However, IMHO, for SMS to work (besides being tailored to different sectors/operator sizes) it depends on two things.
1) Continuing traditional oversight methods during implementation and until fully adopted and proven results are seen.
2) Guaranteed (legislated) whistleblower protections for both public and private sector workers.
Transport Canada is doing neither of these things, and that is why many people are outraged.
Chuck:
I know getting you to agree on anything positive about TC is talking to the wall. However TC will contnue to audit all operators at regulary scheduled intervals. The only thing different is what is being audited. Inspectors still oversee training programs, SMS, quality assurance... even rides along on a regular basis. This where I work, and SMS in 100% implemented. Is it flawless? Probably not but no system is. I do think the idea of rectifying problems before they become an accident/incident is a great way of thinking. I know it has changed the way I see safety and approach it has changed. But I do agree continued oversight is critical.
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"" Chuck:
I know getting you to agree on anything positive about TC is like talking to the wall. ""
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
That shows how little you know about me and my association with Transport Canada over the years.
May I suggest you sit down and think for a few moments before you make such a broad and untrue accusation?
Unless of course you have evidence of something in my past that supports such a statement.
Like wrongdoing by me.
I know getting you to agree on anything positive about TC is like talking to the wall. ""
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
That shows how little you know about me and my association with Transport Canada over the years.
May I suggest you sit down and think for a few moments before you make such a broad and untrue accusation?
Unless of course you have evidence of something in my past that supports such a statement.
Like wrongdoing by me.
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Really?
That shows how little you know about me and my association with Transport Canada over the years.
May I suggest you sit down and think for a few moments before you make such a broad and untrue accusation?
Unless of course you have evidence of something in my past that supports such a statement.
Like wrongdoing by me.
That shows how little you know about me and my association with Transport Canada over the years.
May I suggest you sit down and think for a few moments before you make such a broad and untrue accusation?
Unless of course you have evidence of something in my past that supports such a statement.
Like wrongdoing by me.
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Apology accepted Rubberbiscuit. 
The reason you did not see very many nice comments from me about TC on Avcanada was because my posts were about wrongdoing by some of TCCA's top management that involved deliberate dishonesty on the part of named individuals leading to deliberate disregard for the very same laws they are sworn to uphold trying to dig their way out of the hole they dug for themselves.
How can one be nice about such blatant abuse of power at that level?
The reason you did not see very many nice comments from me about TC on Avcanada was because my posts were about wrongdoing by some of TCCA's top management that involved deliberate dishonesty on the part of named individuals leading to deliberate disregard for the very same laws they are sworn to uphold trying to dig their way out of the hole they dug for themselves.
How can one be nice about such blatant abuse of power at that level?
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Understood...
Chuck:
Can't blame you for how you feel about it based on what you are sharing with the rest of us. Very unfortunate.
As far as Avcanada goes, I am getting the impression your input missed over there, but I understand and respect your decision to pull the plug!
I look forward to reading your continued contributions here instead
Can't blame you for how you feel about it based on what you are sharing with the rest of us. Very unfortunate.
As far as Avcanada goes, I am getting the impression your input missed over there, but I understand and respect your decision to pull the plug!
I look forward to reading your continued contributions here instead
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Rubberbiscuit my decision to take a break from posting on Avcanada was in the hope it would be better for Joe and his mods in trying to bring the forum back to a more civilized place for aviation buffs to communicate.
I believe that I was partly responsible for a lot of the very negative and sometimes outright hateful posts that were becoming far to frequent there.
Without me there for some of the posters to attack on every comment I made it can only improve the atmosphere there.
I believe that I was partly responsible for a lot of the very negative and sometimes outright hateful posts that were becoming far to frequent there.
Without me there for some of the posters to attack on every comment I made it can only improve the atmosphere there.
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Honestly I don't think it was you that was causing negativity Chuck ...
I generally found that a handful of others were responsible for turning otherwise interesting threads nasty; However, you did on occasion help to 'add fuel to the fire' once the conversation had started to turn.
For what it's worth, I enjoy reading many of your posts, on both sites.
Cheers,
Neil
I generally found that a handful of others were responsible for turning otherwise interesting threads nasty; However, you did on occasion help to 'add fuel to the fire' once the conversation had started to turn.
For what it's worth, I enjoy reading many of your posts, on both sites.
Cheers,
Neil
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Thank you nblythin for your kind comments.
Believe me sometimes it is difficult not replying to some of the posts on Avcanada, especially on the flight training forum.
Some of the ideas and opinions I see coming from posters who claim to be flight instructors make me so depressed for the industry I feel like going out in my hangar and hanging myself from the engine hoist.
Believe me sometimes it is difficult not replying to some of the posts on Avcanada, especially on the flight training forum.
Some of the ideas and opinions I see coming from posters who claim to be flight instructors make me so depressed for the industry I feel like going out in my hangar and hanging myself from the engine hoist.
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It certainly is difficult to refrain sometimes ... took a break from Avcanada myself for a while. I'm glad someone had recommended this forum (it may have even been you that pointed me here); been lurking for a couple of months now, and the tone of it is a welcome relief.
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Yes this forum generally is more focused on the issues surrounding aviation.
I have been posting here since 2001 and seldom do I get involved in the negative bickering that was so prevalent on Avcanada, maybe it has to do with the age of the posters here?
Anyhow I hope Avcanada turns back into what it used to be and then it will be worthwhile going back.
I have been posting here since 2001 and seldom do I get involved in the negative bickering that was so prevalent on Avcanada, maybe it has to do with the age of the posters here?
Anyhow I hope Avcanada turns back into what it used to be and then it will be worthwhile going back.
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At the TC SMS Info Session, Martin Eley announced that SMS implemenation will be delayed in all sectors for which it has not already been regulated until January 2011 at the earliest. Finalization delayed to 2015 rather than 2011.
There is a SCOTIC hearing on Monday: SCOTIC to Hear Witnesses on November 30th | SafeSkies.ca
There is a SCOTIC hearing on Monday: SCOTIC to Hear Witnesses on November 30th | SafeSkies.ca