Forced retirement declared unconstitutional
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are all living longer as citizens of this country , so this had to happen eventually. The demographic shift to a more aged median population leading to a higher age before retirement is going to be the norm for all workers in the Western world for the next 15 - 25 years at least. The retirement liability for the nation requires that we all work longer... it`s a fact. ( want a pension ? .. gonna have to work longer for less of one.. ) Less younger workers supporting a much larger and growing retired population will make financial stress a major factor in public policy. At least Canada doesn`t have the problems that Europe , Japan and to a lesser degree that Russia have , not to mention China , that`s another problem in itself. Their aged populations are far outstripping their youth in both numbers and financial demands. I`m not an Air Canada pilot , and have no agenda here, this is just a sign of things to come , get used to it.
That all said , it stands to reason that there will be winners and losers in this. You could take this news either way ; some might argue the greed issue , others might lament the loss of early retirement. Nobody`s right or wrong here , no wait a minute ... we can still blame George Bush....
That all said , it stands to reason that there will be winners and losers in this. You could take this news either way ; some might argue the greed issue , others might lament the loss of early retirement. Nobody`s right or wrong here , no wait a minute ... we can still blame George Bush....
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Raincoast
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Hall ain't a greedy guy...'specially if ya know him personally... thet argument is crap. Reverse the logic and see where it takes ya... maybe it's the young'ens who're greedy? Canadian pilots' sense of 'entitlement' is as odious as it is legendary...
Mr Hall is the guy who argued this matter at the right time 'n place. He likely won't even benefit personally 'cause he wants ta take a run at political office, he don't want to fly anymore.
This matter is an international one, and is larger than either ACPA or AC as a corporate body.
This issue's 'bout the right of free men and women, who may still enjoy professional vigor, who elect to work until a date of their own choosin', or the higher internationally mandated retirement date, presently 65 years of age. Personally, I hope it goes to 70.
It is also rather ridiculous that in tough economic circumstances, AC is still puttin' their over 40 guys through a medical every 6 months... this global standard changed a few years ago. Canadian thinking on this matter is bit old fashioned doncha think?
Mr Hall is the guy who argued this matter at the right time 'n place. He likely won't even benefit personally 'cause he wants ta take a run at political office, he don't want to fly anymore.
This matter is an international one, and is larger than either ACPA or AC as a corporate body.
This issue's 'bout the right of free men and women, who may still enjoy professional vigor, who elect to work until a date of their own choosin', or the higher internationally mandated retirement date, presently 65 years of age. Personally, I hope it goes to 70.
It is also rather ridiculous that in tough economic circumstances, AC is still puttin' their over 40 guys through a medical every 6 months... this global standard changed a few years ago. Canadian thinking on this matter is bit old fashioned doncha think?
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m of the opinion that as long as you can do the job and want to, then you’re retirement date is at your discretion. We have folks that shouldn’t be in either seat at 40 never mind 70. Basely if the pilot can maintain the standard and the medical then age shouldn’t be a factor as it’s just a number. I suspect only half of the pilots’ at 60 really want to go on as we all age differently. And then for how long? Maybe another year or two, part- time, whatever...
There are folks out there that probably can do an excellent job at 80 and some that should quit at 50.
There are folks out there that probably can do an excellent job at 80 and some that should quit at 50.
Just to play the devil’s advocate here for a minute:
No one here has asked or answered a very important question here…
Putting aside the issues of age/right to work and greed…
Why are there no experienced pilots to replace these gods among men?
(Insert Ben Stein’s voice here)
Anyone? Anyone?
Is it because the airlines have not bothered to look toward and plan for the future? No hiring? No training? The ‘come with a type rating and a 1000 hours, or don’t come at all’ attitude? What is it?
Given that there are no experience replacements, and given that a senior captain could work on the freedom deathbed plan, how does this fix the problem? Eventually the boomers will die. Then what?
Carrier:
There is no Canadian airline that does not hire experienced captains into their stables. If you make it through the interviews, the training, the line indoctrination, the line checks and the rides every six months, you are a qualified person who is capable of commanding the aircraft you are flying. If you were not, you would not be there any more. Once you are at the airlines it is not about being capable, because you have and continue to show that you already are, it is not about being competitive, it is about numbers. How deep is the pile, where are you in that pile and how old are you. That’s it, that’s all. If you made it through the door of that airline, then they already know that you are a person capable of being a captain.
No one here has asked or answered a very important question here…
Putting aside the issues of age/right to work and greed…
Why are there no experienced pilots to replace these gods among men?
(Insert Ben Stein’s voice here)
Anyone? Anyone?
Is it because the airlines have not bothered to look toward and plan for the future? No hiring? No training? The ‘come with a type rating and a 1000 hours, or don’t come at all’ attitude? What is it?
Given that there are no experience replacements, and given that a senior captain could work on the freedom deathbed plan, how does this fix the problem? Eventually the boomers will die. Then what?
Carrier:
Those pilots who support and have to resort to the use of such artificial barriers for their own benefit obviously lack confidence in their own capabilities and in their ability to compete in a competitive job market!
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The same can be asked of the unions, instead of fighting a losing battle why haven’t they prepared an action plan for the future? How is the pension issue going to addressed etc? Lots of questions but few answers..
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Not a huge sand box but very nice winters anymore
Age: 57
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TORONTO - The Federal Court of Canada is being asked to step into a dispute between pilots at Air Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.
At issue is a tribunal decision that called into question the retirement age provision of the collective agreement between the Air Canada Pilots Association and the airline.
In a new release issued Monday, the association says it believes the tribunal "erred at law by ignoring Supreme Court of Canada decisions which found it acceptable for employers and employees to determine a retirement age through the collective bargaining process."
The tribunal, in an Aug. 28 decision, ruled that Section 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act cannot be justified under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a reasonable limit prescribed by law that can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
That section of the human rights law states that a practice is not discriminatory if an individual's employment is terminated because he or she has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in similar positions.
As a result of this interpretation, the tribunal refused to apply this section of the human rights act in considering a complaint regarding the association's collective agreement, which contains a contractual obligation for Air Canada pilots to retire at age 60.
If left unchallenged, the decision could potentially have an impact on the wages and benefits of the active pilot group and thousands of other federally regulated employees currently working under collective agreements containing a fixed age of retirement.
"The contractual retirement age and associated post-employment benefits are cornerstones of our collective agreement, which has supported Air Canada pilots' careers for decades," said Capt. Brian Murray, chair of the association's Age 60 Legal Support Committee.
"The overwhelming majority of our members support this provision and we will use every legal means to protect their right to collectively bargain terms of retirement," Murray said.
The Air Canada Pilots Association is the largest professional pilot group in Canada, representing the more than 3,000 pilots who operate Air Canada's main fleet.
At issue is a tribunal decision that called into question the retirement age provision of the collective agreement between the Air Canada Pilots Association and the airline.
In a new release issued Monday, the association says it believes the tribunal "erred at law by ignoring Supreme Court of Canada decisions which found it acceptable for employers and employees to determine a retirement age through the collective bargaining process."
The tribunal, in an Aug. 28 decision, ruled that Section 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act cannot be justified under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a reasonable limit prescribed by law that can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
That section of the human rights law states that a practice is not discriminatory if an individual's employment is terminated because he or she has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in similar positions.
As a result of this interpretation, the tribunal refused to apply this section of the human rights act in considering a complaint regarding the association's collective agreement, which contains a contractual obligation for Air Canada pilots to retire at age 60.
If left unchallenged, the decision could potentially have an impact on the wages and benefits of the active pilot group and thousands of other federally regulated employees currently working under collective agreements containing a fixed age of retirement.
"The contractual retirement age and associated post-employment benefits are cornerstones of our collective agreement, which has supported Air Canada pilots' careers for decades," said Capt. Brian Murray, chair of the association's Age 60 Legal Support Committee.
"The overwhelming majority of our members support this provision and we will use every legal means to protect their right to collectively bargain terms of retirement," Murray said.
The Air Canada Pilots Association is the largest professional pilot group in Canada, representing the more than 3,000 pilots who operate Air Canada's main fleet.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sad to say my union over the years has been involved in battles that weren’t winnable and ended up with egg on they’re face. I’m afraid this is another one of those battles only this time the legal consequences may be financially disastrous. You never want to play Russian roulette unless you’re willing to pay the price.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 1998
Location: Where the job is!
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread deals with forced retirement according to age but a related problem is discriminatory hiring due to age. Air Canada was penalised for this about 25 years ago. However it still continues in aviation in Canada.
A current advertisement by Contract Aero on Avcanada for a pilot states: “Maximum age 60 years old.” Is it legal to post age discriminatory job advertisements in Canada? Is it legal to discriminate against pilots on the basis of age in Canada? If not, what sort of penalties would the advertiser and the forum be open to?
Note that while the job might be in a less than savoury jurisdiction with retarded human rights any recruiter and any forum operating in Canada should comply with Canada’s laws and human rights and consequently should be subject to penalties for breaking any of them.
A current advertisement by Contract Aero on Avcanada for a pilot states: “Maximum age 60 years old.” Is it legal to post age discriminatory job advertisements in Canada? Is it legal to discriminate against pilots on the basis of age in Canada? If not, what sort of penalties would the advertiser and the forum be open to?
Note that while the job might be in a less than savoury jurisdiction with retarded human rights any recruiter and any forum operating in Canada should comply with Canada’s laws and human rights and consequently should be subject to penalties for breaking any of them.
Last edited by Carrier; 13th Oct 2009 at 15:01. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the middle of the Golden Horseshoe otherwise known as Toronto
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ICAO and Age Limits - Annex 1, Amendment 167
I voted against changing the 60-rule. It takes long enough to get a decent block as it is...Mind you, with the state of the non-pension, maybe some do have to work...
Not so long ago, the Speedbirds had the boss shown the door at 55.
For the sake of clarity, here's ICAO's position:
Age limit for flight crew Amendment 167 to Annex 1
The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft, subject to conditions. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday. 1) Pilot-in-Command aged 60-64 years of age
In accordance with Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the amendment means that if a pilot-in-command (PIC) is 60 years of age or over but less than 65 years of age and is engaged in operations with more than one pilot, he/she cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating in airports or the airspace of any ICAO Contracting State as long as at least one other pilot is under 60 years of age. For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years. A State may impose a lower maximum age limit than that specified by ICAO in § 2.1.10.1 for the licenses it issues but it cannot prevent, by reason of age, an aircraft from another State operated by a PIC holding a licence issued or validated by that State, who is below the ICAO upper age limit, from operating in the airspace above its territory.
2) Pilot-in-Command 65 years of age and over
Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who do not meet all international licensing Standards, provided that an authorization is given by each State into which the aircraft is operated. Those seeking information concerning States that may authorize pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 65 years are advised to contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities
3) Augmented crews
In commercial long-range air transport, the designated flight crew may be augmented, and can number three, four or even more pilots. In the case of flight crew comprising more than two pilots, the intent of § 2.1.10.1 is to ensure that, when the pilot-in-command is over 60 but less than 65 years of age, the operating flight crew includes at least one other pilot, who is licensed, appropriately rated for all phases of flight, current, and younger than 60 years of age. It is suggested that during high workload phases of flight (such as flight below 10,000 feet above ground level) at least one pilot seated at the controls should be under 60 years of age.
4) Medical Assessment
When over 60, a six-monthly medical assessment is necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical assessment for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations).
Not so long ago, the Speedbirds had the boss shown the door at 55.
For the sake of clarity, here's ICAO's position:
Age limit for flight crew Amendment 167 to Annex 1
The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft, subject to conditions. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday. 1) Pilot-in-Command aged 60-64 years of age
In accordance with Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the amendment means that if a pilot-in-command (PIC) is 60 years of age or over but less than 65 years of age and is engaged in operations with more than one pilot, he/she cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating in airports or the airspace of any ICAO Contracting State as long as at least one other pilot is under 60 years of age. For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years. A State may impose a lower maximum age limit than that specified by ICAO in § 2.1.10.1 for the licenses it issues but it cannot prevent, by reason of age, an aircraft from another State operated by a PIC holding a licence issued or validated by that State, who is below the ICAO upper age limit, from operating in the airspace above its territory.
2) Pilot-in-Command 65 years of age and over
Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who do not meet all international licensing Standards, provided that an authorization is given by each State into which the aircraft is operated. Those seeking information concerning States that may authorize pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 65 years are advised to contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities
3) Augmented crews
In commercial long-range air transport, the designated flight crew may be augmented, and can number three, four or even more pilots. In the case of flight crew comprising more than two pilots, the intent of § 2.1.10.1 is to ensure that, when the pilot-in-command is over 60 but less than 65 years of age, the operating flight crew includes at least one other pilot, who is licensed, appropriately rated for all phases of flight, current, and younger than 60 years of age. It is suggested that during high workload phases of flight (such as flight below 10,000 feet above ground level) at least one pilot seated at the controls should be under 60 years of age.
4) Medical Assessment
When over 60, a six-monthly medical assessment is necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical assessment for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations).
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the middle of the Golden Horseshoe otherwise known as Toronto
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Common sense on the age card is needed
Carrier - you make a good point. In Canada, my understanding is, provided there is no regulatory framework to be taken into account of, you can't mention age. ICAO is 65 pretty much now - see my previous post.
Common sense needs to apply to of course - look at the blue rinse grannies still working the cabin on the overseas to London and Paris especially - and the rap we get for their attitude and poor service is incredible (and sometimes deserved).
Flight deck is different - experience counts for all - but the jury is still out if experience over 60 actually means an increased margin of safety or the opposite...
Common sense needs to apply to of course - look at the blue rinse grannies still working the cabin on the overseas to London and Paris especially - and the rap we get for their attitude and poor service is incredible (and sometimes deserved).
Flight deck is different - experience counts for all - but the jury is still out if experience over 60 actually means an increased margin of safety or the opposite...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the middle of the Golden Horseshoe otherwise known as Toronto
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Raymond Hall....
Guys, remember Raymond has political ambition - so if an election comes along, he'll stand in Winnipeg I think...and if he wins, forget about driving...
Makes me wonder if Fly Past 60 has gotten the commitment...
Makes me wonder if Fly Past 60 has gotten the commitment...
