Immigration to Canada
Guest
Posts: n/a
Immigration to Canada
There have been a number of foreign pilots inquiring about job opportunities and immigration to Canada on this forum and others. Before I go further, I want to make it totally clear that I am nor a racist nor somebody who discriminates against people because they are from a foreign country. I have a University education, speak 3 languages fluently, have lived in 6 countries and am married to a non-Canadian citizen. I currently live outside of Canada.
I understand the desire for work as a pilot and thirst for adventure in foreign countries. I myself have fallen victim to the same. My problem is that Immigration Canada has made it relatively easy (compared to most other countries) for foreign pilots to immigrate to Canada to seek permanent employment.
Am I against letting foreigners work in Canada? No. However, when a Canadian pilot attempts to find work outside of Canada, the reception by these countries' immigration and aviation authorities is more frigid than Whitehorse in the midst of January. I remember myself inquiring at the Australian consulate in Los Angeles a few years ago about the possibility of a temporary work visa for a pilot. The response I got was so hostile that I lost all interest in having anything to do with Australia or Australians for a good many years (don't worry, I now work aside a couple and I think their a good bunch of jovial guys). How about Europe? There's a big pilot shortage there. Uh, uh. Unless you still have citizenship in one of the EU countries, no chance. Go to the U.S.-- without having a U.S. spouse-- ha!?!?!?! How about Latin America? Most Latin American countries' Civil Aviation Authorities require you to be a CITIZEN of that country to be able to hold a Commercial or Airline Transport Pilot License. That's EVEN DISPITE that Immigration may have issued you Permanent Resident/Landed Immigrant status. As a Canadian pilot working for a company and government agency of XXXX country, conducting operations in ZZZZ country, we have no less than had pilots of ZZZZ country launching compaints and full page articles in the newspapers that we're violating not only their country's civil aviation regulations by not exclusively employing pilots of ZZZZ nationality, but even violating the constituation of that country in the process! All of this dispite the fact that we are working for the federal government of XXXX, and there is an agreement signed with the government of the Republic of ZZZZ to conduct our operations.
I guess I wouldn't be bothered by all of this if we had a pilot shortage in Canada of the proportions that are seen in the U.S., Europe or Asia, but in Canada a 2000 hour pilot pilot still needs luck in getting a turboprop job-- a number of jet companies list their mins. at 4000 or 5000 hours TT. Obviously these minimums are tied to the rules of supply and demand-- quite frankly I would like to see the supply dry up to see the situation improve in Canada to give my fellow pilots who have a tough time getting their first job or accumulating meaningful flight time to have a decent shot at a jet or turboprop job. As evidenced by the laxness of immigration rules and the immigration of foreign pilots to Canada dispite the presence of a pilot shortage, we as Canadians must be incredibly generous or overwhelmingly stupid (you pick).
Foreign pilots in Canada? Sure! But maybe you should talk to your government first to make it a reciprocal process that gives Canadian pilots an equal chance to enter the job market in your country. More than anything, I believe in free competition.
Fire away.
I understand the desire for work as a pilot and thirst for adventure in foreign countries. I myself have fallen victim to the same. My problem is that Immigration Canada has made it relatively easy (compared to most other countries) for foreign pilots to immigrate to Canada to seek permanent employment.
Am I against letting foreigners work in Canada? No. However, when a Canadian pilot attempts to find work outside of Canada, the reception by these countries' immigration and aviation authorities is more frigid than Whitehorse in the midst of January. I remember myself inquiring at the Australian consulate in Los Angeles a few years ago about the possibility of a temporary work visa for a pilot. The response I got was so hostile that I lost all interest in having anything to do with Australia or Australians for a good many years (don't worry, I now work aside a couple and I think their a good bunch of jovial guys). How about Europe? There's a big pilot shortage there. Uh, uh. Unless you still have citizenship in one of the EU countries, no chance. Go to the U.S.-- without having a U.S. spouse-- ha!?!?!?! How about Latin America? Most Latin American countries' Civil Aviation Authorities require you to be a CITIZEN of that country to be able to hold a Commercial or Airline Transport Pilot License. That's EVEN DISPITE that Immigration may have issued you Permanent Resident/Landed Immigrant status. As a Canadian pilot working for a company and government agency of XXXX country, conducting operations in ZZZZ country, we have no less than had pilots of ZZZZ country launching compaints and full page articles in the newspapers that we're violating not only their country's civil aviation regulations by not exclusively employing pilots of ZZZZ nationality, but even violating the constituation of that country in the process! All of this dispite the fact that we are working for the federal government of XXXX, and there is an agreement signed with the government of the Republic of ZZZZ to conduct our operations.
I guess I wouldn't be bothered by all of this if we had a pilot shortage in Canada of the proportions that are seen in the U.S., Europe or Asia, but in Canada a 2000 hour pilot pilot still needs luck in getting a turboprop job-- a number of jet companies list their mins. at 4000 or 5000 hours TT. Obviously these minimums are tied to the rules of supply and demand-- quite frankly I would like to see the supply dry up to see the situation improve in Canada to give my fellow pilots who have a tough time getting their first job or accumulating meaningful flight time to have a decent shot at a jet or turboprop job. As evidenced by the laxness of immigration rules and the immigration of foreign pilots to Canada dispite the presence of a pilot shortage, we as Canadians must be incredibly generous or overwhelmingly stupid (you pick).
Foreign pilots in Canada? Sure! But maybe you should talk to your government first to make it a reciprocal process that gives Canadian pilots an equal chance to enter the job market in your country. More than anything, I believe in free competition.
Fire away.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Wow,
That is the longest posting I have seen on the pprune yet. You make a pretty valid point. I posted a question about job oportunities in the US a while ago and actually got a few hostile responses (quel suprise from Ya'll land).
I must admit being in the market for a job right now with 2000TT, seeing the foreign pilots who are interested in working here as a bit of a "jolly", concerns me as well. Lets face it though, it is very un-Canadian to say no to any other nations. The one thing we Canadians have cornered the market on, which may detract foreign pilots, is taxes, taxes, taxes!
That is the longest posting I have seen on the pprune yet. You make a pretty valid point. I posted a question about job oportunities in the US a while ago and actually got a few hostile responses (quel suprise from Ya'll land).
I must admit being in the market for a job right now with 2000TT, seeing the foreign pilots who are interested in working here as a bit of a "jolly", concerns me as well. Lets face it though, it is very un-Canadian to say no to any other nations. The one thing we Canadians have cornered the market on, which may detract foreign pilots, is taxes, taxes, taxes!
Guest
Posts: n/a
PJ, sorry, I've gotta respond to this one. You complain about us "Auzzies" coming in, and our country not showing reciprocal relationships with immigration standards - ha, I wish. I've been trying for two years now and it's nearly easier for me to apply for the U.S. than Canuckland. I'd have better luck with the green card lottery! I have a relationship with someone in Canada, I visit at least three times a year, have the quals to get a job there, am prepared to fork out the dosh for immigrations itchy palms, but no, I don't have a uni degree or speak F*#&en French, (don't get me started on those c*%#s) so how can you say what you've said. If you can back it up, please let me know, because obviously you know something I don't. mate!
------------------
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful...
------------------
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Panama Jack, I agree with you there should be a argreement of some sort for pilots to be able to find work where ever they would like to go.
Nungry, Please don't be like that. I understand that french is not the official internationnal language, but that does'nt mean it's does'nt have the right to exist. If you want to come over here to work, I think you have a better chance than in the US. And than you have two choices:
Fist one: Learn french if you want to work in the province of Quebec.
Second one: Try getting a job in one of the other eight provinces of our beautful but over tax contry.
Don't get me wrong on this, I belive that qualified pilots should be able to find work. But if it's at the expence of an other one who would want to get work in his own contry but can't because the market is floded with demand from all over the world, that's not right. That's why I think there are some rules to succeding in landing such job in a forein contry. I my self for one have thought of going to uncle sams contry but since I don't have a rats chace of geting a green card, I gave up. At least I was sucessful at home.
By the way, rules of hiring are the same for every body, I have to speak english and french to find work as a pilot in my own contry. So please think about it a little bit befor saying things you might regret later.
Peace evreybody.
Nungry, Please don't be like that. I understand that french is not the official internationnal language, but that does'nt mean it's does'nt have the right to exist. If you want to come over here to work, I think you have a better chance than in the US. And than you have two choices:
Fist one: Learn french if you want to work in the province of Quebec.
Second one: Try getting a job in one of the other eight provinces of our beautful but over tax contry.
Don't get me wrong on this, I belive that qualified pilots should be able to find work. But if it's at the expence of an other one who would want to get work in his own contry but can't because the market is floded with demand from all over the world, that's not right. That's why I think there are some rules to succeding in landing such job in a forein contry. I my self for one have thought of going to uncle sams contry but since I don't have a rats chace of geting a green card, I gave up. At least I was sucessful at home.
By the way, rules of hiring are the same for every body, I have to speak english and french to find work as a pilot in my own contry. So please think about it a little bit befor saying things you might regret later.
Peace evreybody.
Guest
Posts: n/a
To nungry: You maybe should look at Oz's immigration before you talk about Canada's. I've been through Australia's immigration system. I married a girl from Brisbane, and we decided to move there from Calgary. No mountains, but the beach and weather sure makes up for it !!! 
When I looked through all the paperwork, I noticed that Oz has a "points" system too, just like Canada. Under 25 with a masters degree, no worries. No degree, over 30, don't bother. Then as with Canada, medical, license conversion written, flight test. All the same as you would have to do in Canada. So please don't slam Canada when your own homeland does the exact same thing. I call myself lucky to have lived in 2 of the best countries in the world. By the way we are also going through Canada's immigration paperwork, so if we decide to ever move back, she can work. Believe me, they are both as bad the other.
As for taxes, Canada has nothing on Oz. Not only is the income tax higher here in Oz, but G.S.T. is 10 %, you have to pay a medicare levy on you gross earnings, (generally a couple %) you pretty much need to have private health insurance too, so add another $35 + every 2 weeks. Smokes, and booze is more as well, unless you drink the cheap shi@t.
It's also extremely expensive to get decent Cdn rye here. $55 for a 750ml Cdn Club !!! They prefer to drink cheap bourbon here. EWWWW, YUCK !!! Mind you, the rum is pretty darn good here. And I have found that rugby league is a great game. Much faster than North American football. (different than rugby union, which is what we normally think of as rugby. Union is just like a work union, too many players, and the play is slow !!! sorry union fans, just my opinion)
Randy_G
[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 02 December 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 02 December 2000).]
When I looked through all the paperwork, I noticed that Oz has a "points" system too, just like Canada. Under 25 with a masters degree, no worries. No degree, over 30, don't bother. Then as with Canada, medical, license conversion written, flight test. All the same as you would have to do in Canada. So please don't slam Canada when your own homeland does the exact same thing. I call myself lucky to have lived in 2 of the best countries in the world. By the way we are also going through Canada's immigration paperwork, so if we decide to ever move back, she can work. Believe me, they are both as bad the other. As for taxes, Canada has nothing on Oz. Not only is the income tax higher here in Oz, but G.S.T. is 10 %, you have to pay a medicare levy on you gross earnings, (generally a couple %) you pretty much need to have private health insurance too, so add another $35 + every 2 weeks. Smokes, and booze is more as well, unless you drink the cheap shi@t.
It's also extremely expensive to get decent Cdn rye here. $55 for a 750ml Cdn Club !!! They prefer to drink cheap bourbon here. EWWWW, YUCK !!! Mind you, the rum is pretty darn good here. And I have found that rugby league is a great game. Much faster than North American football. (different than rugby union, which is what we normally think of as rugby. Union is just like a work union, too many players, and the play is slow !!! sorry union fans, just my opinion) Randy_G
[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 02 December 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 02 December 2000).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Panama Jack,
You make quite a few very relevant points, I can say that your observations are very similar to people from Australia and NZ looking for work overseas, or EU pilots trying to get work in France.
Canadians pilots already have special rights to work in the US ( you need a FAA license), and Canadian companies are currently supplying pilots for CRJs in Australia.
US companies are having seminars in Australia with projections of 6000 pilots a year required, when asked where they plan to get them they said we will just issue green cards to Aussies and New Zealanders, but will the people really want to go ?
I have also seen a report that China Southern Airlines plan to purchase another 1500 (one thousand five hundred) jets.....I understand the China Southern school in Australia is pumping out 200 pilots a year, not enough to meet this demand (enough for about 30-35 aircraft).
Australia only produced 4-500 odd commercial licensed pilots last year ( a large number of that were exported to overseas airlines), we have airlines like Virgin starting up with 15 737's, Impulse, Kendells and other looking at Jets, and Qantas announcing it will be buying another 31 aircraft......I have heard rumors that another 300 jet jobs are up for grabs in Australia.
The number of pilots being trained and available for work do not meet the projected demands, airbus alone had about 1500 orders backlogged on the books, not to mention the regional jets and Boeing....
My advice ... be patient, a commercial license will open immigration doors in the not to distance future like IT qualifications do at the moment.
People in Canada, Australia, New Zealand will be the ones to take advantage of the world wide shortage, just don’t let our standards down, our low accident rates will make our licenses well sought after as being well trained, an asset not a liability to the airline.
Regards
BJ
BTW Impulse is looking at getting B1900 captians in from overseas, but they pay crappy with a poor aussie dollar I dont think anyone will come.
You make quite a few very relevant points, I can say that your observations are very similar to people from Australia and NZ looking for work overseas, or EU pilots trying to get work in France.
Canadians pilots already have special rights to work in the US ( you need a FAA license), and Canadian companies are currently supplying pilots for CRJs in Australia.
US companies are having seminars in Australia with projections of 6000 pilots a year required, when asked where they plan to get them they said we will just issue green cards to Aussies and New Zealanders, but will the people really want to go ?
I have also seen a report that China Southern Airlines plan to purchase another 1500 (one thousand five hundred) jets.....I understand the China Southern school in Australia is pumping out 200 pilots a year, not enough to meet this demand (enough for about 30-35 aircraft).
Australia only produced 4-500 odd commercial licensed pilots last year ( a large number of that were exported to overseas airlines), we have airlines like Virgin starting up with 15 737's, Impulse, Kendells and other looking at Jets, and Qantas announcing it will be buying another 31 aircraft......I have heard rumors that another 300 jet jobs are up for grabs in Australia.
The number of pilots being trained and available for work do not meet the projected demands, airbus alone had about 1500 orders backlogged on the books, not to mention the regional jets and Boeing....
My advice ... be patient, a commercial license will open immigration doors in the not to distance future like IT qualifications do at the moment.
People in Canada, Australia, New Zealand will be the ones to take advantage of the world wide shortage, just don’t let our standards down, our low accident rates will make our licenses well sought after as being well trained, an asset not a liability to the airline.
Regards
BJ
BTW Impulse is looking at getting B1900 captians in from overseas, but they pay crappy with a poor aussie dollar I dont think anyone will come.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Several US Airlines are already making it easy for Canadians to work in the USA. There are stories getting around about United issuing greencards to Canadians and companies like Horizon and CE dropping their citizenship requirement.
Oh and if you want to get a job in AUstralia... easy.. just go to Indonesia and rent a fishing boat and sail across. Even if they catch you you will receive a financial aid package as a refugee that is higher then what we pay our Vietnam Vets and their widows!! You will receive free legal aid in order to apply for permanent residency and be housed for up to a year or so while this goes on. :-)
Weasil.
Oh and if you want to get a job in AUstralia... easy.. just go to Indonesia and rent a fishing boat and sail across. Even if they catch you you will receive a financial aid package as a refugee that is higher then what we pay our Vietnam Vets and their widows!! You will receive free legal aid in order to apply for permanent residency and be housed for up to a year or so while this goes on. :-)
Weasil.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dear Big Jugs,
Thanks for your observations. Allow me to comment:
"Canadians pilots already have special rights to work in the US ( you need a FAA license)"
. . . . Really? I don't think so. I have an FAA License, but at least a green card is required. Rumours like this pop up frequently, but if you ask any companies they quote in their correspondence "U.S. Citizenship or Permanent Resident Status required."
"US companies are having seminars in Australia with projections of 6000 pilots a year required, when asked where they plan to get them they said we will just issue green cards to Aussies and New Zealanders, but will the people really want to go ?"
. . . . something you know that I don't. I hear "urban legends" of massive green card handouts. Hmmm, what does "urban legend" mean?
"I have also seen a report that China Southern Airlines plan to purchase another 1500 (one thousand five hundred) jets.....I understand the China Southern school in Australia is pumping out 200 pilots a year, not enough to meet this demand (enough for about 30-35 aircraft)."
. . . . yup, China Southern does training in Perth area. I worked for them in Beijing. You forgot to mention that all of their cadet pilots are CHINESE citizens-- actually, southern Chinese citizens. If you are talking about pay, the equivalent of $1200 USD per month for a Boeing 767 Captain probably doesn't float many people's boats.
"Australia only produced 4-500 odd commercial licensed pilots last year ( a large number of that were exported to overseas airlines), we have airlines like Virgin starting up with 15 737's, Impulse, Kendells and other looking at Jets, and Qantas announcing it will be buying another 31 aircraft......I have heard rumors that another 300 jet jobs are up for grabs in Australia."
So why is it then that my "aussie mates" at the company I work for can't find anything better than a turboprop position "down unda".
"The number of pilots being trained and available for work do not meet the projected demands, airbus alone had about 1500 orders backlogged on the books, not to mention the regional jets and Boeing...."
Yup, somewhere, someone is going to get a pilot job. Often 250 hour pilots from the Republic of YYYY getting on with YYYY Airlines.
"My advice ... be patient, a commercial license will open immigration doors in the not to distance future like IT qualifications do at the moment."
Let us pray.
Thanks. Have a good day. PJ
Thanks for your observations. Allow me to comment:
"Canadians pilots already have special rights to work in the US ( you need a FAA license)"
. . . . Really? I don't think so. I have an FAA License, but at least a green card is required. Rumours like this pop up frequently, but if you ask any companies they quote in their correspondence "U.S. Citizenship or Permanent Resident Status required."
"US companies are having seminars in Australia with projections of 6000 pilots a year required, when asked where they plan to get them they said we will just issue green cards to Aussies and New Zealanders, but will the people really want to go ?"
. . . . something you know that I don't. I hear "urban legends" of massive green card handouts. Hmmm, what does "urban legend" mean?
"I have also seen a report that China Southern Airlines plan to purchase another 1500 (one thousand five hundred) jets.....I understand the China Southern school in Australia is pumping out 200 pilots a year, not enough to meet this demand (enough for about 30-35 aircraft)."
. . . . yup, China Southern does training in Perth area. I worked for them in Beijing. You forgot to mention that all of their cadet pilots are CHINESE citizens-- actually, southern Chinese citizens. If you are talking about pay, the equivalent of $1200 USD per month for a Boeing 767 Captain probably doesn't float many people's boats.
"Australia only produced 4-500 odd commercial licensed pilots last year ( a large number of that were exported to overseas airlines), we have airlines like Virgin starting up with 15 737's, Impulse, Kendells and other looking at Jets, and Qantas announcing it will be buying another 31 aircraft......I have heard rumors that another 300 jet jobs are up for grabs in Australia."
So why is it then that my "aussie mates" at the company I work for can't find anything better than a turboprop position "down unda".
"The number of pilots being trained and available for work do not meet the projected demands, airbus alone had about 1500 orders backlogged on the books, not to mention the regional jets and Boeing...."
Yup, somewhere, someone is going to get a pilot job. Often 250 hour pilots from the Republic of YYYY getting on with YYYY Airlines.
"My advice ... be patient, a commercial license will open immigration doors in the not to distance future like IT qualifications do at the moment."
Let us pray.
Thanks. Have a good day. PJ
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hmm, it would seem that Candians are closer to the English than i previously was lead to believe.
This argument resurfaces every few months on PPrune...Globalisation or not - the transition to it is not as smooth as could be, and we are all the pawns in the middle.
BTW - the speaking french bit earlier - if you speak fluent french and english, you get 15 points towards your 70. Only one of them, then its 9 points.
See the Candian Govt website for more info...you only get 1 point for being a pilot (as opposed to 10 for jobs in demand) but you are credited with 15 out of 18 for the training and education required to acheive this (can't see any differentiation between ATPL or CPL though).
------------------
Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake
This argument resurfaces every few months on PPrune...Globalisation or not - the transition to it is not as smooth as could be, and we are all the pawns in the middle.
BTW - the speaking french bit earlier - if you speak fluent french and english, you get 15 points towards your 70. Only one of them, then its 9 points.
See the Candian Govt website for more info...you only get 1 point for being a pilot (as opposed to 10 for jobs in demand) but you are credited with 15 out of 18 for the training and education required to acheive this (can't see any differentiation between ATPL or CPL though).
------------------
Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake
Guest
Posts: n/a
PJ,
The Chinese and Korean airlines have realized the importance of membership into the global airline alliances. The airlines in the alliances do their own audits of these airlines and have found a number of dangerous practices, one solution was to remove the airlines from the alliance or a massive injection of intellectual capital and skills from overseas.
It is true that the cadets being CHINESE citizens, but they cannot get enough captains locally so they are importing them. I have run into a number of expat pilots flying Chinese & Korean aircraft, they were not getting US$1200 a month. Whereever they come from more slots are available.
“So why is it then that my "aussie mates" at the company I work for can't find anything better than a turboprop position "down unda"”
Don’t know, Kendells advertised in the paper that it has reduced their pilot minimums to 250 multi command and are interviewing in every capital city 14 applicants every couple of months, QANTAS has been employing 5-10 pilots a week, all they are after is 500 hours command on aircraft (single or multi) and rejecting a heaps more, and Ansett is employing, besides a number of people actually like the lifestyle of flying turboprops in Australia.
I note with interest that the Canadian company that was contracted to supply CRJ drivers to Kendells could not deliver the number of drivers required for some time.
Australia only has about 120 high capacity jets, when operators start adding 20 or so aircraft to the Australian register in real terms you are talking about 15-25% increase in the number of jets in the country. Qantas has also leased a number of aircraft this year from BA, I had rumors that BA were going to supply some of the pilots for the 744’s as the QF training dept could not pump out enough pilots. Virgin are due to add another 10 737-800s into the fleet soon, they pay less than Ansett and Qantas, so where are they going to get the drivers from ?
“Yup, somewhere, someone is going to get a pilot job. Often 250 hour pilots from the Republic of YYYY getting on with YYYY Airlines. “
So you are saying the 14 additional A319/A321 aircraft that Air Canada ordered on Oct 10 are going to be crewed by 250 hr pilots ? And what is wrong with a 250 hr pilot if they are trained correctly ?
BJ
The Chinese and Korean airlines have realized the importance of membership into the global airline alliances. The airlines in the alliances do their own audits of these airlines and have found a number of dangerous practices, one solution was to remove the airlines from the alliance or a massive injection of intellectual capital and skills from overseas.
It is true that the cadets being CHINESE citizens, but they cannot get enough captains locally so they are importing them. I have run into a number of expat pilots flying Chinese & Korean aircraft, they were not getting US$1200 a month. Whereever they come from more slots are available.
“So why is it then that my "aussie mates" at the company I work for can't find anything better than a turboprop position "down unda"”
Don’t know, Kendells advertised in the paper that it has reduced their pilot minimums to 250 multi command and are interviewing in every capital city 14 applicants every couple of months, QANTAS has been employing 5-10 pilots a week, all they are after is 500 hours command on aircraft (single or multi) and rejecting a heaps more, and Ansett is employing, besides a number of people actually like the lifestyle of flying turboprops in Australia.
I note with interest that the Canadian company that was contracted to supply CRJ drivers to Kendells could not deliver the number of drivers required for some time.
Australia only has about 120 high capacity jets, when operators start adding 20 or so aircraft to the Australian register in real terms you are talking about 15-25% increase in the number of jets in the country. Qantas has also leased a number of aircraft this year from BA, I had rumors that BA were going to supply some of the pilots for the 744’s as the QF training dept could not pump out enough pilots. Virgin are due to add another 10 737-800s into the fleet soon, they pay less than Ansett and Qantas, so where are they going to get the drivers from ?
“Yup, somewhere, someone is going to get a pilot job. Often 250 hour pilots from the Republic of YYYY getting on with YYYY Airlines. “
So you are saying the 14 additional A319/A321 aircraft that Air Canada ordered on Oct 10 are going to be crewed by 250 hr pilots ? And what is wrong with a 250 hr pilot if they are trained correctly ?
BJ
