Which Canadian Carrier Would You Wanna Fly For?
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Oh puleeze...you are right on one thing...we wont agree. And by the way. you are way out of line with your statement about my knowledge of the industry...you have no idea what some of my friends and colleagues, or me for that matter, have seen and what my experience level is, so do me a favour and try not to put me in some sort of class here. Enjoy working, enjoy Canada, dont worry yourself about us poor expats, we will be just fine...K?
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Well just to keep old Brucey happy I am going to stay on track. If I was to return to Canada the only option would be WJ. They are growing at a steady rate, have a happy workforce, a solid busness plan and are set up in an area sitting on the worlds second largest proven oil reserves. They will be operating bigger equipment sooner than later. AC on the other hand is looking shakey. Assets have been stripped/sold and it looks like in 2009 the workforce is going to take a kick in the nards. The EMB's are replacing the 320's in some areas and these will be farmed out to Jazz. Ouch. The pension must be in the sites as well.
WJ for me all the way. The proof is in the pudding.
WJ for me all the way. The proof is in the pudding.
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I don't know guys but the same old song and dance is getting kind of old. Yep, AC got all that government help, AC is going under, bla, bla bla. Hey boys, wake up and smell the coffee or whatever you smell out there in the desert. I guess you must be AC rejects. Here we go again.
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Bruce,
You wanted us to stay on topic so in my case I did. AC reject, naw cuz I have never applied. I am sorry if you find that strange. Working for a European flag carrier seemed like a better option. If I showed you my pay stub every month, you may understand why, or cry. Your choice.
I again would take WJ over AC any day and that is the question being asked. From the look of things many in Canada feel the same way.
Stop being an arrogant Tw%t and wind your neck in. AC aint the be all and end all and you know it.
You wanted us to stay on topic so in my case I did. AC reject, naw cuz I have never applied. I am sorry if you find that strange. Working for a European flag carrier seemed like a better option. If I showed you my pay stub every month, you may understand why, or cry. Your choice.
I again would take WJ over AC any day and that is the question being asked. From the look of things many in Canada feel the same way.
Stop being an arrogant Tw%t and wind your neck in. AC aint the be all and end all and you know it.
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If i had to go back to Canada and pick a carrier...hmm that would be a tough choice. I couldn't afford to come back and work for AC in YYZ, the pay is just dismal. WJ would probably be doable, but it would be a stretch for the first few years. Best bet i guess would be finding someone that would take you as a DEC, or corporate.
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Canav8r.
Well, let's set the record straight since we're back on topic. From what I gather, some of you guys base your happiness soley on money. Ok, I guess to some that's all that counts. I make enough money at AC to be happy and live in my own country, the icing on the cake if you will. Next, you would choose WJ over AC. Good choice. Great company. But from what I gather, you now work for a flag carrier or at least a multi-fleet carrier. Going to WJ, you would probably fly a 737 the rest of your career. Clive Bedoe is basing the WJ model on the low costs in the US. Hey, if that's what you like, no problem. Many pilots in Canada don't seem to mind. But since money is so important to you, I'm sure you won't find any widebody captains at WJ making the cash we do at AC (oh, there's that arrogance again, my, my). You're right, many are applying at WJ. But I can guarantee you, especially by the sounds of things on the local forums, most are still wanting to be at AC for the same reasons you are where you are. That is, more equipment and route variety as well as better benefits in the long term. Yah, you would deny yourself a great career with AC just because "it ain't the be all end all". Pretty stupid, bro. On the statement of arrogance, well, I guess that's the price I pay by default from people like you just because I'm an AC pilot. Good on you, jerk. No, AC ain't what it use to be. That I will agree with. My company has paid the price of a merger, bad management and assbackwards government interferance (not aid). Tell ya what though, it's still a great gig. But hey, you're just going to have to trust me on that one brother.
Well, let's set the record straight since we're back on topic. From what I gather, some of you guys base your happiness soley on money. Ok, I guess to some that's all that counts. I make enough money at AC to be happy and live in my own country, the icing on the cake if you will. Next, you would choose WJ over AC. Good choice. Great company. But from what I gather, you now work for a flag carrier or at least a multi-fleet carrier. Going to WJ, you would probably fly a 737 the rest of your career. Clive Bedoe is basing the WJ model on the low costs in the US. Hey, if that's what you like, no problem. Many pilots in Canada don't seem to mind. But since money is so important to you, I'm sure you won't find any widebody captains at WJ making the cash we do at AC (oh, there's that arrogance again, my, my). You're right, many are applying at WJ. But I can guarantee you, especially by the sounds of things on the local forums, most are still wanting to be at AC for the same reasons you are where you are. That is, more equipment and route variety as well as better benefits in the long term. Yah, you would deny yourself a great career with AC just because "it ain't the be all end all". Pretty stupid, bro. On the statement of arrogance, well, I guess that's the price I pay by default from people like you just because I'm an AC pilot. Good on you, jerk. No, AC ain't what it use to be. That I will agree with. My company has paid the price of a merger, bad management and assbackwards government interferance (not aid). Tell ya what though, it's still a great gig. But hey, you're just going to have to trust me on that one brother.
Last edited by brucelee; 27th Mar 2007 at 17:58.
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Well my take is....... AC and WJ have their up and downs. Personally i would choose AC for most of the reasons Bruce was saying. The point how most Wj guys wish they were at AC...come on wishful thinking casue you are at Ac like most people they like to make where they are BETTER than it actually is i call it self immortalization
As far as expats: I have MANY friends that have been offered jobs at AC and have turned them down. Yes if they were earlier in thier careers they may have considered but for most FO expat being in the 30-40 range how can u tuen back the clock and make nothing for 3 years?????? Anyways god luck to all and to each their own that is what makes aviation so interesting everyone is different, if we were all the same it would suck
As far as expats: I have MANY friends that have been offered jobs at AC and have turned them down. Yes if they were earlier in thier careers they may have considered but for most FO expat being in the 30-40 range how can u tuen back the clock and make nothing for 3 years?????? Anyways god luck to all and to each their own that is what makes aviation so interesting everyone is different, if we were all the same it would suck
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"The point how most Wj guys wish they were at AC...come on wishful thinking casue you are at Ac like most people they like to make where they are BETTER than it actually is i call it self immortalization."
Not sure where you're getting that from. That's not what I said.
Not sure where you're getting that from. That's not what I said.
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Bruce, you just don’t get it. Your argument and method of debating are weak at best. I used the money anology to shut your cake hole about how great AC is. I can guarantee you that the wide body Skippers/FO’s in my operation (and we have over 2000 wide body pilots) make considerably more than those at AC. While we are on that topic, WJ pays better at the narrow body level in the current market. This ‘Bro’ is fact. New flash for ya. WJ will be operating wide bodies within 3-5 years max. Canada can support two major carriers and whether you like it or not its going to happen. The old head in sand AC attitude is funny to watch on that one. BA/CX are already in talks with WJ about alignment. My how silly it would be to get involved with two of the worlds most successful and profitable airlines.
WJ in my mind (again what this topic was started about) is the go to gig in Canada these days. The happiest/most stable guys in the US are at Southwest. Have been for years. Someone asked the question so I put in my two sense. You can have your gig at AC, we are all so pleased about your happiness there.
WJ in my mind (again what this topic was started about) is the go to gig in Canada these days. The happiest/most stable guys in the US are at Southwest. Have been for years. Someone asked the question so I put in my two sense. You can have your gig at AC, we are all so pleased about your happiness there.
Not too many years ago most main line pilots in the states dumped on Southwest as a "real" job for pilots. Pretty much everything Bruce was saying with a few more choice words on top. Seems Southwest did one minor thing that all the others forgot, they made money. Day in, day out running their little 737 greyhound operation. Their pilots are the best paid of the lot and no one leaves. Sort of like the Tortoise and the hare. Southwest has gate agents who have retired as millionaires, let alone pilots.
If you want a stable career in Canada look at what operation is in the best shape to make money on the long term. IMHO if you want to see who will make money in the future look at the track record, it is the best indicator going.
Open skies are here, cabotage of passengers is next. When they have a choice no one in North America is going to pay a nickle more to protect an flag carrier that most people see as ripping them off.
20driver
Never applied to AC, don't work for WJ. Just being watching this for 20 years.
If you want a stable career in Canada look at what operation is in the best shape to make money on the long term. IMHO if you want to see who will make money in the future look at the track record, it is the best indicator going.
Open skies are here, cabotage of passengers is next. When they have a choice no one in North America is going to pay a nickle more to protect an flag carrier that most people see as ripping them off.
20driver
Never applied to AC, don't work for WJ. Just being watching this for 20 years.
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av8tr.
No sir. You are a very one-sided, AC-basher. Reading your previous stuff on this forum makes it rather obvious. To you the future has already happened. "The writing is on the wall". Yah, that's real intelligent. Let me know when BA/CX get together and rule the world. Just what we need, more Brits and cowboys getting together. Brainwashed and arrogant.
20driver.
I'm not implying low costs don't make money. They're pretty much the only ones that do. We're talking about where the best place to work is. Some think it's where the profits are highest. Some think it's overseas even though the topic refers to companies in Canada. Some think it's where the overall satisfaction is, equipment, routes ect.. To each his own.
No sir. You are a very one-sided, AC-basher. Reading your previous stuff on this forum makes it rather obvious. To you the future has already happened. "The writing is on the wall". Yah, that's real intelligent. Let me know when BA/CX get together and rule the world. Just what we need, more Brits and cowboys getting together. Brainwashed and arrogant.
20driver.
I'm not implying low costs don't make money. They're pretty much the only ones that do. We're talking about where the best place to work is. Some think it's where the profits are highest. Some think it's overseas even though the topic refers to companies in Canada. Some think it's where the overall satisfaction is, equipment, routes ect.. To each his own.
Last edited by brucelee; 28th Mar 2007 at 00:20.
Bruce, my point is if you want a long term career, where you get to fly, go home and make a decent buck, you must work for a company that makes money over the long term. No profits, no raises, no pensions, at least not for the peons. RM and his like are their own case's. If it is the LOCO's that make money that's were I'd go. The cartels and bilateral agreements etc are long gone. Your problem at AC is not just Westjet, it's SIA, Cathy and Jet. The days of the guaranteed 50/50 split on a route are gone.
Money over the long term is not made by accounting gimmicks like selling the furniture, aeroplan, heavy MX, lease back dodges with a dip into Chapter 11 to dump the baggage. You make by selling a flight for more than it costs you. You’re not doing that you are done.
That means it matters what the customers think, it matters that the planes are full. The days of its "our work" are gone.
If you want the know why SWA makes money, take a look at the SEC filings (410's ?) . Top three execs at Southwest, together, earn a percentage of the CEO average at the legacy carriers. (Nellam at JetBlue makes $500K pa, peanuts in this economy) SWA headquarters were quaintly described by the NY Times as "non descript" The money is in the product that the customer buys.
I’m not having a go at AC. I’m pointing out to someone looking at the field to start out you need to work for a company that makes money. 20 years ago you could say AC would always be there. Today I’d say all bets are off.
20driver
Money over the long term is not made by accounting gimmicks like selling the furniture, aeroplan, heavy MX, lease back dodges with a dip into Chapter 11 to dump the baggage. You make by selling a flight for more than it costs you. You’re not doing that you are done.
That means it matters what the customers think, it matters that the planes are full. The days of its "our work" are gone.
If you want the know why SWA makes money, take a look at the SEC filings (410's ?) . Top three execs at Southwest, together, earn a percentage of the CEO average at the legacy carriers. (Nellam at JetBlue makes $500K pa, peanuts in this economy) SWA headquarters were quaintly described by the NY Times as "non descript" The money is in the product that the customer buys.
I’m not having a go at AC. I’m pointing out to someone looking at the field to start out you need to work for a company that makes money. 20 years ago you could say AC would always be there. Today I’d say all bets are off.
20driver
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Brucey is an unabashed WJ basher. Probably a WJ reject
He does have a point about multiple types etc... so does 20driver about a happy stable outfit. Whatever works for ya.
He does have a point about multiple types etc... so does 20driver about a happy stable outfit. Whatever works for ya.
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WRC.
A WJ reject? Buddy, what are you smoking? I would rather change careers than become a brainwashed, arrogant, WJ puppet pilot (yes I know, they're not all like that). Hey, how fitting is this new Walmart contract? I got a chuckle out of it. No wait, I think they had to help me off the floor from laughing so much. Anyways, yes, you are right, to each his own. And unfortunately for us in Canada, we're short one more company to choose from today. Sad.
20driver.
Yes, much of what you say is true. I would also add though that the service AC provides is one that no other carrier in Canada can provide. AC will never make big profits but can surely survive, especially now as a standalone company. And I maintain that WJ does not intend to become an AC type which is the irony of this whole conversation. If they ever do, it would be interesting to see what margins and profits would look like. They will only be successful so long as they stick to their model IMHO. In any event, who cares? All of us will be working for only a hand full of world carriers in the future. I think AC will be absorbed by United or Lufthansa. WJ of course will belong to BA or Walmart (hehe).
A WJ reject? Buddy, what are you smoking? I would rather change careers than become a brainwashed, arrogant, WJ puppet pilot (yes I know, they're not all like that). Hey, how fitting is this new Walmart contract? I got a chuckle out of it. No wait, I think they had to help me off the floor from laughing so much. Anyways, yes, you are right, to each his own. And unfortunately for us in Canada, we're short one more company to choose from today. Sad.
20driver.
Yes, much of what you say is true. I would also add though that the service AC provides is one that no other carrier in Canada can provide. AC will never make big profits but can surely survive, especially now as a standalone company. And I maintain that WJ does not intend to become an AC type which is the irony of this whole conversation. If they ever do, it would be interesting to see what margins and profits would look like. They will only be successful so long as they stick to their model IMHO. In any event, who cares? All of us will be working for only a hand full of world carriers in the future. I think AC will be absorbed by United or Lufthansa. WJ of course will belong to BA or Walmart (hehe).
Last edited by brucelee; 28th Mar 2007 at 01:53.
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Wow, Brucey, your taking yourself way too seriously. The wink means it's a joke but judging by the nerve I hit maybe not
. A bit too quick to deny. Your secret is safe with us lol!
Now was Dad on the DC-8 or L-1011? You really sound like a brainwashed arrogent AC pilot (I know, they're not all like that).
Stick to your pink cool-aid Monty gives you.
. A bit too quick to deny. Your secret is safe with us lol! Now was Dad on the DC-8 or L-1011? You really sound like a brainwashed arrogent AC pilot (I know, they're not all like that).
Stick to your pink cool-aid Monty gives you.
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brucelee,
were you a w%nker before you joined AC or did working for them change you into one?
you are exactly the reason my buddy is actively looking to leave AC!
Good luck to all, working in Canada or outside.
If you ever find yourself as bitter as brucey its time to throw in the towel......"you dont work for AC?????did you fail the interview!!!????"
were you a w%nker before you joined AC or did working for them change you into one?
you are exactly the reason my buddy is actively looking to leave AC!
Good luck to all, working in Canada or outside.
If you ever find yourself as bitter as brucey its time to throw in the towel......"you dont work for AC?????did you fail the interview!!!????"