Westjet Deicing
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Originally Posted by Safety Guy
Slapshot:
You're trying to deflect the discussion from the real issue.
You're trying to deflect the discussion from the real issue.
I'm not trying to deflect at all. It was stated that "ANY contamination has to be removed. Period."
I answered to the contrary with what our F.O.M. states on the matter.
Icing can not be covered with a blanket statement, it is not a black and white issue. Since none of us were there, equipped with the information the Crew had at the time I find the sanctimonious hindsight baffling and to be quite frank unbecoming of Professional Pilots...
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Originally Posted by Slapshot
I'm not trying to deflect at all. It was stated that "ANY contamination has to be removed. Period."
I answered to the contrary with what our F.O.M. states on the matter.
Icing can not be covered with a blanket statement, it is not a black and white issue. Since none of us were there, equipped with the information the Crew had at the time I find the sanctimonious hindsight baffling and to be quite frank unbecoming of Professional Pilots...
I answered to the contrary with what our F.O.M. states on the matter.
Icing can not be covered with a blanket statement, it is not a black and white issue. Since none of us were there, equipped with the information the Crew had at the time I find the sanctimonious hindsight baffling and to be quite frank unbecoming of Professional Pilots...
Wow if your comments reflect those of a WJ professional pilot then I am alarmed. What else are you cutting corners on in an effort to save money?
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I find it odd that persons claiming to be professional pilots point out the "cost" of de-icing fluids and how expensive it is for the airlines. Yet, I've not spoken with a single colleague who can give me the price per liter/gallon.
I'd say Fuel is what costs the airline, not deicing fluid (seasonal item) but you don't see many pilots taking a pass on extra fuel accounted for on the OFP just to save the company some bucks.
Why scrimp on deicing fluid in a country victimized by ice and snow?
I'd say Fuel is what costs the airline, not deicing fluid (seasonal item) but you don't see many pilots taking a pass on extra fuel accounted for on the OFP just to save the company some bucks.
Why scrimp on deicing fluid in a country victimized by ice and snow?
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Originally Posted by anybodyatall
Since the complaint was directed first and foremost to WJ, then I think the honourable thing to do would be to let WJ answer it first. If a WJ reply is unsatisfactory, then the person should take it to the next step, and that is to TC. Let them investigate it properly. If TC finds that the allegations prove to be valid, THEN by all means go to the media and raise a stink... To do otherwise I think is putting the proverbial cart before the horse...
And how do you think WJ would have answered? You gotta be kidding me, right? They would never admitt the truth.
Royalterrace.
Yep. Typical comments. You guys have to find something better than the word "arrogance". Maybe you're right, the snow was not adhering. But why is it that everyone else was deicing and not WJ, including other 737's. What's so special about WJ itself? Had it been a one time incident I wouldn't be waisting my time right now as I certainly have better things to do, but when you see it a couple of times and hear about it a few other times, there's defenitely a pattern. Nothing arrogant, just a few comments witnessed by many. Why not do the honourable thing and just say it may have happened but WJ does not condone this? The arrogance is coming from you pal.
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Originally Posted by Willie Everlearn
I find it odd that persons claiming to be professional pilots point out the "cost" of de-icing fluids and how expensive it is for the airlines. Yet, I've not spoken with a single colleague who can give me the price per liter/gallon.
I'd say Fuel is what costs the airline, not deicing fluid (seasonal item) but you don't see many pilots taking a pass on extra fuel accounted for on the OFP just to save the company some bucks.
Why scrimp on deicing fluid in a country victimized by ice and snow?
I'd say Fuel is what costs the airline, not deicing fluid (seasonal item) but you don't see many pilots taking a pass on extra fuel accounted for on the OFP just to save the company some bucks.
Why scrimp on deicing fluid in a country victimized by ice and snow?
This will give you some idea of how much it costs to de-ice an Ilyushin 76 cargo airplane.
On Jan. 12, 2006 our employees working at Winnipeg Airport de-iced an Ilyushin 76 cargo airplane. More than 4,200 litres of glycol was used to remove the frost and snow. The flight was carrying military supplies from Winnipeg to Kandahar, Afghanistan.
Depending upon the type of spray the cost could range approximately from $2000 for a narrow body to more then $10,000 for a wide body.
Now you can understand the reluctance of the “Owners” to spend the money to de-ice. It costs money to do the job right..
Last edited by Tan; 1st Feb 2006 at 13:46.
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Tan,
thanks for the info.
Do you know if deice fluid suffers from the same ups and downs as Oil? Jet A? etc.?
$10,000 isn't much out of a cargo flight generating $(fill in the blank),000 profit, is it?
Now, some might hesitate to consider the $10,000 as if it were coming out of their own pocket which I think is a bad idea. Spend the money. Eliminate the doubt.
If you saved the company the ten grand and stalled out at 1500 feet or so, how much for the damaged airframe and if there are passengers on board, how much in law suit awards, airframe replacement costs, crew replacement/training costs, etc., etc., etc..
The cost of deicing fluid should never enter a pilot's mind. Just as the cost of fuel shouldn't concern him/her either. You need what you need to operate safely and you need regulation fuel at the very least to get the job done. The cost of doing so, is not the crews concern.
I sure hope a 'cost savings' mentality doesn't penetrate a pilot owners' 'profit share' expectations.
thanks for the info.
Do you know if deice fluid suffers from the same ups and downs as Oil? Jet A? etc.?
$10,000 isn't much out of a cargo flight generating $(fill in the blank),000 profit, is it?
Now, some might hesitate to consider the $10,000 as if it were coming out of their own pocket which I think is a bad idea. Spend the money. Eliminate the doubt.
If you saved the company the ten grand and stalled out at 1500 feet or so, how much for the damaged airframe and if there are passengers on board, how much in law suit awards, airframe replacement costs, crew replacement/training costs, etc., etc., etc..
The cost of deicing fluid should never enter a pilot's mind. Just as the cost of fuel shouldn't concern him/her either. You need what you need to operate safely and you need regulation fuel at the very least to get the job done. The cost of doing so, is not the crews concern.
I sure hope a 'cost savings' mentality doesn't penetrate a pilot owners' 'profit share' expectations.
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Not sure I completely agree Willie.
As a Captain, I feel that I have to pay attention to the bottom line, where it is safe to do so. It is my duty to look for those places where I can reduce the cost of a flight, such as direct routings in favourable winds, and ensuring that we are operating at the optimum altitude. That said, I have to ensure that my efforts to save money don't violate a regulation or threaten the safety of the flight. I wouldn't take off with less than the minimum brake release fuel, and I won't take off with an aircraft that isn't free of contamination as defined in our manuals and the regulations. Those are simply some the costs of doing business.
SG
As a Captain, I feel that I have to pay attention to the bottom line, where it is safe to do so. It is my duty to look for those places where I can reduce the cost of a flight, such as direct routings in favourable winds, and ensuring that we are operating at the optimum altitude. That said, I have to ensure that my efforts to save money don't violate a regulation or threaten the safety of the flight. I wouldn't take off with less than the minimum brake release fuel, and I won't take off with an aircraft that isn't free of contamination as defined in our manuals and the regulations. Those are simply some the costs of doing business.
SG
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I've read back through the posts on this subject and it seems to me it has brought up a few good points.
Everyone here agrees that proper deicing is essential. The disagreement appears to be in the perceptions of those watching others operate in different ways than what they feel is safe. What we all have to remember is that we don't have the full picture when it comes to the operation of someone elses aircraft. As an example , I would bet that many were not aware that WestJet is able to depart with fuel frost within certain prescibed limits. Another example could be the letter that started this refered to one Westjet aircraft heading to deice while the other didn't. How in the world could the author know whether the non deiced aircraft hadn't just got in from a redeye and a quick turn precluded the need for a spray. I could cite many times that I have seen other airliners not spraying while I headed to the deice facility and only can say there are many reasons that could explain their decisions.
It is interesting that deice05 has not responded to any of these posts. I'm hoping that it is because he did what he should have in the first place and contacted the appropriate people at WestJet and voiced his concerns with them.
Everyone here agrees that proper deicing is essential. The disagreement appears to be in the perceptions of those watching others operate in different ways than what they feel is safe. What we all have to remember is that we don't have the full picture when it comes to the operation of someone elses aircraft. As an example , I would bet that many were not aware that WestJet is able to depart with fuel frost within certain prescibed limits. Another example could be the letter that started this refered to one Westjet aircraft heading to deice while the other didn't. How in the world could the author know whether the non deiced aircraft hadn't just got in from a redeye and a quick turn precluded the need for a spray. I could cite many times that I have seen other airliners not spraying while I headed to the deice facility and only can say there are many reasons that could explain their decisions.
It is interesting that deice05 has not responded to any of these posts. I'm hoping that it is because he did what he should have in the first place and contacted the appropriate people at WestJet and voiced his concerns with them.
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SG
FWIW
I've set up and managed Flt. Safety programs in my time. So, I'm confident we're on the same page.
Most of what you've said about efficiency, fuel savings, optimums...goes without saying in a discussion like this. I should think.
The idea some managers have that every line pilot can/does save every last dime during every flight is preposterous. We try but don't always manage to achieve those intended savings. That's just the way it is. Isn't it? Generally, cost savings are made despite the various flight deck personalities, experience levels, flying habits, comprehension levels and individual interpretations of performance graphs and charts. But we try.
Why the focus on deicing fluid? If it's needed, why worry about the cost? Let the accountants deal with the supplier when the bill is received by Company, but I don't think it should be a factor in any flight deck decision.
Back to my original comments. The crew is innocent until evidence proves otherwise. That's going to be tough. The accusation is just that, until proven. Which is even tougher.
Besides, WJ can handle it.
FWIW
I've set up and managed Flt. Safety programs in my time. So, I'm confident we're on the same page.
Most of what you've said about efficiency, fuel savings, optimums...goes without saying in a discussion like this. I should think.
The idea some managers have that every line pilot can/does save every last dime during every flight is preposterous. We try but don't always manage to achieve those intended savings. That's just the way it is. Isn't it? Generally, cost savings are made despite the various flight deck personalities, experience levels, flying habits, comprehension levels and individual interpretations of performance graphs and charts. But we try.
Why the focus on deicing fluid? If it's needed, why worry about the cost? Let the accountants deal with the supplier when the bill is received by Company, but I don't think it should be a factor in any flight deck decision.
Back to my original comments. The crew is innocent until evidence proves otherwise. That's going to be tough. The accusation is just that, until proven. Which is even tougher.
Besides, WJ can handle it.
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Originally Posted by royalterrace
I would bet that many were not aware that WestJet is able to depart with fuel frost within certain prescibed limits..
Most of us have been around longer then WJ and have witnessed other carriers doing all sorts of things in an effort to escape the cost of de-icing. This is nothing new and to try and hide behind what’s in the manuals instead of using your common sense is nothing new either.
The LCC’s only put the absolute minimum requirements in their manuals in an effort to reduce their costs. The bean counters have carefully weighted what it costs to do the job correctly against the cost to do the minimum and have concluded it’s cheaper to do the minimum and bite the bullet for the occasional mishap..
The travelling public gets what it pays for, only they aren't aware of the added risk nor do they care until something goes wrong..
Last edited by Tan; 1st Feb 2006 at 20:11.
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Willie:
We're definitely on the same page, I should have given you more credit. It will be interesting to see how much more pressure management will put on us pilots to squeeze more and more savings out of the operation, as the race to control costs and stay competitive continues. Like you, I will never contribute to that by cutting back on de-icing.
Tan:
I'm not sure you're being fair to LCCs. I've seen the AC deicing manual, and any differences between it and the substance of the one at my company are miniscule, and I believe you'd think of us as an LCC.
We're definitely on the same page, I should have given you more credit. It will be interesting to see how much more pressure management will put on us pilots to squeeze more and more savings out of the operation, as the race to control costs and stay competitive continues. Like you, I will never contribute to that by cutting back on de-icing.
Tan:
I'm not sure you're being fair to LCCs. I've seen the AC deicing manual, and any differences between it and the substance of the one at my company are miniscule, and I believe you'd think of us as an LCC.
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Originally Posted by Safety Guy
Tan:
I'm not sure you're being fair to LCCs. I've seen the AC deicing manual, and any differences between it and the substance of the one at my company are miniscule, and I believe you'd think of us as an LCC.
I'm not sure you're being fair to LCCs. I've seen the AC deicing manual, and any differences between it and the substance of the one at my company are miniscule, and I believe you'd think of us as an LCC.
I’m not too sure of that as our infrastructure includes an “iceman” a term that you may not be familiar with. Basically it’s a person trained in the deicing decision making process. In short your aircraft has to have his approval before departure as the Captain does not have sole deicing authority. The pilots are also brought up to speed before every deicing season begins which also has its associated costs. In summary the legacy carriers have learned the hard way its better to spend a little extra on deicing and its associated infrastructure then the alternative of having an accident.
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The priorities pounded into all WJ pilots from day one are safety, comfort, efficiency - in that order. This is emphasised in initial and recurrent training, regular communications from Flight OPs management and standards guys, winter ops reviews etc. In six years at the company, I have not talked to or heard of one captain who would depart knowing there was critical surface contamination. I personally have never seen or heard one communication in any form from management suggesting that safety be compromised for cost. I have heard many Captains here including ex KLM, Cathay, AC, C3, and TC state that our culture of safety is better than most.
As captains we are all faced with daily risk management decisions that are sometimes complex and require a balance between safety, regulations, guest comfort, and the bottom line. We do the very best we can and still mistakes are occasionally made; one hopes that the systems,people, and SOPs, in place will prevent a mistake from becoming an incident or accident. Personaly I am proud of the caliber of professional aviators in Canada - including those at other carriers.
Regarding Mr. Tan's comments regarding other qualified personnel - our FOM is actually somewhat similar to his in that a trained and qualified person (in most cases a line maintenance person) has the authority to insist on deicing and in the event of a disagreement with the Captain, the aircraft SHALL be deiced.
Regarding the crew in this specific incident - I will not pass judgement yet. Knowing our VP FliteOPs, Chief Pilot, and Director of Flight Safety I have no doubt that if there is any substance to the allegations by Mr Anonymous the incident will be investigated fully and completely.
In closing - is it possible that at sometime or place has a WJ aircraft has departed with surface contamination - sure, as with any other airline - but it is NOT a reflection on the overall attitudes and values of our flight crews.
As captains we are all faced with daily risk management decisions that are sometimes complex and require a balance between safety, regulations, guest comfort, and the bottom line. We do the very best we can and still mistakes are occasionally made; one hopes that the systems,people, and SOPs, in place will prevent a mistake from becoming an incident or accident. Personaly I am proud of the caliber of professional aviators in Canada - including those at other carriers.
Regarding Mr. Tan's comments regarding other qualified personnel - our FOM is actually somewhat similar to his in that a trained and qualified person (in most cases a line maintenance person) has the authority to insist on deicing and in the event of a disagreement with the Captain, the aircraft SHALL be deiced.
Regarding the crew in this specific incident - I will not pass judgement yet. Knowing our VP FliteOPs, Chief Pilot, and Director of Flight Safety I have no doubt that if there is any substance to the allegations by Mr Anonymous the incident will be investigated fully and completely.
In closing - is it possible that at sometime or place has a WJ aircraft has departed with surface contamination - sure, as with any other airline - but it is NOT a reflection on the overall attitudes and values of our flight crews.
Last edited by duster1; 2nd Feb 2006 at 05:03.
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I have witnessed west Jet not de-iceing when my aircraft and AC's and Jazz's planes are spraying in the morning due to frost. This has happened more than a few times. I know that planes of this type will fly just fine with this little contaminant, but the law is a clean wing concept. So all airlines should be bound by the same law. West Jet is the exception.
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Or you may have seen an aircraft depart that did not need a frost spray because it landed at 0600 from an overnight charter, or had taken a frost spray at the gate, or had been towed over from a warm hangar...the law applies to WestJet as it does everyone else...I stand by my comments above
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duster1
You’re missing the point, AC’s deicing operation decision making requires co-authority and that's not what you are saying. AC whether you like it or not is the most experienced recognized deicing carrier in the world. If there’s a way to deice an aircraft more efficiently or cheaper we would certainly be employing that procedure. Many of our aircraft are also returning from overnight flights etc so what you are suggesting is a red herring. Visually contaminated wings are just that, contaminated..
Perhaps you should read the post from an alleged WJ Captain about “PR” deicing as that IMHO speaks volumes about your deicing philosophy.
You’re missing the point, AC’s deicing operation decision making requires co-authority and that's not what you are saying. AC whether you like it or not is the most experienced recognized deicing carrier in the world. If there’s a way to deice an aircraft more efficiently or cheaper we would certainly be employing that procedure. Many of our aircraft are also returning from overnight flights etc so what you are suggesting is a red herring. Visually contaminated wings are just that, contaminated..
Perhaps you should read the post from an alleged WJ Captain about “PR” deicing as that IMHO speaks volumes about your deicing philosophy.
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duster1
Not only do you get the point , but you expressed it quite clearly.
Unfortunately , there are those out there who refuse to believe that WestJet is a world class airline operating leading edge equipment and using and applying safety systems that are second to none. Thankfully they are in the vast minority.
We will continue to do what we do best. Provide the customer with a safe , comfortable and economical product and make money doing it. We will continue to grow and prosper.
No amount of ill informed finger pointing and screeching will change any of that. I'm done trying to educate those that refuse to learn on this subject and I would sugest that any other WestJetter's out there put this thing to bed and simply ignore any further rants from those who obviously have nothing better to do than attempt to drag down a first class operation.
Not only do you get the point , but you expressed it quite clearly.
Unfortunately , there are those out there who refuse to believe that WestJet is a world class airline operating leading edge equipment and using and applying safety systems that are second to none. Thankfully they are in the vast minority.
We will continue to do what we do best. Provide the customer with a safe , comfortable and economical product and make money doing it. We will continue to grow and prosper.
No amount of ill informed finger pointing and screeching will change any of that. I'm done trying to educate those that refuse to learn on this subject and I would sugest that any other WestJetter's out there put this thing to bed and simply ignore any further rants from those who obviously have nothing better to do than attempt to drag down a first class operation.
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royalterrace
World class carriers don’t generate this amount of interest in their deicing operations. The deicing comments expressed by some WJ pilots on this thread have raised more then a few eyebrows. One of your machines is going to cough once and then perhaps you'll get it. WJ did not invent aviation although Jetsetters seem to think so..
World class carriers don’t generate this amount of interest in their deicing operations. The deicing comments expressed by some WJ pilots on this thread have raised more then a few eyebrows. One of your machines is going to cough once and then perhaps you'll get it. WJ did not invent aviation although Jetsetters seem to think so..
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That's probably enough
I'm going to close the thread now boys, and I'll tell you why.
It seems(to me at least) that it is sliding down a slippery slope. It's all well and fine to poke fun at each others hats, or jackets or whatever, but now we are entering the realm of unfounded allegations.
A discussion of de-icing procedures is always warranted, but it's past that. Reading between the lines,one can see that it is back to back biting, thinly disguised as as professional crtique.
I don't believe for a second that any one of us would risk life and limb and a multitude of other things to scrimp on a few dollars. The fuel example was a good analogy. If anyone out there thinks they may truly be sharing the skies with others who fly with recklesss abandon, you are duty bound to go to the authorities and request an investigation.
If on the other hand , you feel you are doing yourself, your company, guests and shareholders a favour by cutting safety corners, please stop. Report to your chief pilot's office and request to be removed from the line untill you feel you can trust your own judgement again.
As an aside, I curiously asked the lead hand in YHZ how much the fluid cost these days. He seemed to think that it was around $4.75/l, but didn't really know, citing that it also depended on who you were and how much you used.
I know that we all share the view that it doesn't matter how much it costs, we'll do what it takes to get the job done. It is most certainly an affront to our professional sensibilities to think there are fellow aviators who think so little of their fellow professionals.
Enjoy the weekend.
I now have to get ready for my "parade up George St."
It seems(to me at least) that it is sliding down a slippery slope. It's all well and fine to poke fun at each others hats, or jackets or whatever, but now we are entering the realm of unfounded allegations.
A discussion of de-icing procedures is always warranted, but it's past that. Reading between the lines,one can see that it is back to back biting, thinly disguised as as professional crtique.
I don't believe for a second that any one of us would risk life and limb and a multitude of other things to scrimp on a few dollars. The fuel example was a good analogy. If anyone out there thinks they may truly be sharing the skies with others who fly with recklesss abandon, you are duty bound to go to the authorities and request an investigation.
If on the other hand , you feel you are doing yourself, your company, guests and shareholders a favour by cutting safety corners, please stop. Report to your chief pilot's office and request to be removed from the line untill you feel you can trust your own judgement again.
As an aside, I curiously asked the lead hand in YHZ how much the fluid cost these days. He seemed to think that it was around $4.75/l, but didn't really know, citing that it also depended on who you were and how much you used.
I know that we all share the view that it doesn't matter how much it costs, we'll do what it takes to get the job done. It is most certainly an affront to our professional sensibilities to think there are fellow aviators who think so little of their fellow professionals.
Enjoy the weekend.
I now have to get ready for my "parade up George St."
