Boeing , Boeings , gone.
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Rob Reid DFO, seems have understood what most of us are trying to say. Once AGAIN, here is an excerpt of his message:
"Through the ratification process, many pilots expressed
their support for Air Canada acquiring these aircraft, but also conveyed
concerns over pilot seniority issues which have been the subject of
considerable negotiations, arbitration and Canada Industrial Relations
Board (CIRB) deliberation. There are clearly seniority issues to be
resolved to the satisfaction of our entire pilot group and we will
continue to support ACPA as they strive to achieve that outcome".
Hey Grub, do YOU get the drift? I would of liked to retire on a tripple 7 just as much as you. Thanks to a great wine and cheese party, the CIRB and the OCP, none of us ever will.
"Through the ratification process, many pilots expressed
their support for Air Canada acquiring these aircraft, but also conveyed
concerns over pilot seniority issues which have been the subject of
considerable negotiations, arbitration and Canada Industrial Relations
Board (CIRB) deliberation. There are clearly seniority issues to be
resolved to the satisfaction of our entire pilot group and we will
continue to support ACPA as they strive to achieve that outcome".
Hey Grub, do YOU get the drift? I would of liked to retire on a tripple 7 just as much as you. Thanks to a great wine and cheese party, the CIRB and the OCP, none of us ever will.
Last edited by brucelee; 19th Jun 2005 at 23:44.
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Grubby
Well gee that’s not what my F/O’s are telling me, as for me at my level it has no effect at all. Please explain the F/O high book off rate, which is pretty dumb on the part of the F/O’s in my opinion. Fix the problem from within without damaging your livelihood is the only sensible solution...
The grievances of the present and past should have had no bearing on the vote at all but unfortunately that’s not what happened. The apathy vote IMHO is just as guilty as those who voted no.
The biggest surprise for me was how many of the pilot group missed the big picture as the vote was supposes to be about “fleet renewal” which would have secured our future. Our growth and prosperity lies in the international market place and for that to happen we need fuel efficient long range aircraft. Period.
Is another vote possible very shortly, I would hope so or our future has just taken a turn down south?
Well gee that’s not what my F/O’s are telling me, as for me at my level it has no effect at all. Please explain the F/O high book off rate, which is pretty dumb on the part of the F/O’s in my opinion. Fix the problem from within without damaging your livelihood is the only sensible solution...
The grievances of the present and past should have had no bearing on the vote at all but unfortunately that’s not what happened. The apathy vote IMHO is just as guilty as those who voted no.
The biggest surprise for me was how many of the pilot group missed the big picture as the vote was supposes to be about “fleet renewal” which would have secured our future. Our growth and prosperity lies in the international market place and for that to happen we need fuel efficient long range aircraft. Period.
Is another vote possible very shortly, I would hope so or our future has just taken a turn down south?
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Those of us affected by the merger all have our stories to tell. At one point, I was down half my salary ( a loss of approx $60,000/yr),regaining only slightly some of it recently. It will be at least a couple of years more before I come close to it again. Those who have not been affected by the merger this bad will of course look at it differently. The selfishness is obvious and I guess normal to some extent. Voting NO was not an easy thing to do. The prosperity of the company should always come first. But how much more should I give? Who's looking after my prosperity? Somehow I think the company will do quite well with or without new airplanes. But somehow I don't think I'll ever regain my 500+ seniority numbers. If I were flying a widebody, I probably wouldn't be waisting my time on this forum right now, right?
Last edited by brucelee; 20th Jun 2005 at 01:01.
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Well boilz and goilz, let's agree to disagree. There were a number of agendas out there that lead to the NO vote. I did not say that seniority was to be discounted as one of them, but my experience has been different that yours, obviously, in my conversations.
RR can post whatever he wants, and if you have any question about where some of the issue arise, I suggest that is probably where you should look. Take a look at his share distribution and his net worth over the past few months! You think he has the pilot interests in mind? NO. My opinion, I think he is from the Dark Side. I've talked with him a few times in the past 28 years or so.
RR can post whatever he wants, and if you have any question about where some of the issue arise, I suggest that is probably where you should look. Take a look at his share distribution and his net worth over the past few months! You think he has the pilot interests in mind? NO. My opinion, I think he is from the Dark Side. I've talked with him a few times in the past 28 years or so.
Last edited by Grubby; 20th Jun 2005 at 15:55.
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When you still owe 6 billion, Pension fund still underfunded by 1.5 billion, still have yet to post a profit, what do you expect. When you pay Cabin Crew and baggage handlers more than pilots why do they continue to blame the pilot group....
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I find it unbelievable how many in the pilot group still don’t get it. The reality is that AC cannot produce a profit on its domestic side with out being supplemented by its profitable international side. One of the major reasons that our international side is still profitable is thanks to the US government’s home security which has hamstrung its own airlines.
The AC management team unlike many in the pilot ranks was smart enough to avail themselves of this opportunity or at least they tried and would have been hugely successful except for those without vision in the pilot group.
The AC management team unlike many in the pilot ranks was smart enough to avail themselves of this opportunity or at least they tried and would have been hugely successful except for those without vision in the pilot group.
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Tan:
This is not a one sided issue, with good guys and bad guys, black and white issues (red/blue?).
I do not believe that the pilots are without vision. Like pilots anywhere ACPA members wanted new aircraft, more routes, growth, expansion, movement - but not at all costs. The message from Milton was to accept his terms, or else. The pilots took "or else".
The erosion of the contract has been continuous. Milton's own book gives insights into his thinking about the future of AC, and his feeling about pilots.
Milton threaten the pilots, plain and simple. Milton, the schoolyard bully, put the threat out there that unless the pilots signed on to the deal, he would pack up his bat and ball and go home. The pilots really had no choice either, to continue being beaten daily by the bully or finally take the presented opening and say "no". He got called on that last threat, and Milton had backed himself into a corner of his own creation. So he had no choice. The order was cancelled - at least as far as we know today.
IS that good management? Wouldn't a good manager leave a back door?
Milton asked for a lot, in the end too much from ONE (that is very important) employee group. Milton would be the hero if he had succeeded, and certainly that would NOT have been the end of the demands upon the pilots. Milton has made it clear that as far as he is concerned, it is war on the pilot group. That is his interpretation of the "new way of doing business", while speaking out of the other side of his face to the press about wanting a lovey-dovey relationship with the unions - and even despite putting Brewer in as a new front line general with a new propaganda campaign.
As it stands now, Milton is a bit of a lame duck. At the very least, he has lost some face in his necessary face-saving cancellation of the Boeing order. The necessary message to management has been sent. No more concesssions, and if that has not been heard, we are doomed into CCAA again.
Was this Boeing deal planned to fail? We'll see I guess.
edit -- PS - the seniority statements by AC to the press, and by the OAC group are self-serving.
AC is deflecting blame from a their incompetence, and a lousy offer onto the division within the pilot group.
The OAC pilots are attempting to put their agenda on the table, having failed at all other turns. I believe, as original AC (not part of OAC group) that the process has been skewed and biased within the CIRB and not living up to their own preachings BUT hijacking the ratification vote and the PR is very desperate and not a good move.
The press in interpreting the "no" vote with seniority as the primary reason. That is not accurate, and has reflected badly on ACPA much to AC's pleasure. --end edit
This is not a one sided issue, with good guys and bad guys, black and white issues (red/blue?).
I do not believe that the pilots are without vision. Like pilots anywhere ACPA members wanted new aircraft, more routes, growth, expansion, movement - but not at all costs. The message from Milton was to accept his terms, or else. The pilots took "or else".
The erosion of the contract has been continuous. Milton's own book gives insights into his thinking about the future of AC, and his feeling about pilots.
Milton threaten the pilots, plain and simple. Milton, the schoolyard bully, put the threat out there that unless the pilots signed on to the deal, he would pack up his bat and ball and go home. The pilots really had no choice either, to continue being beaten daily by the bully or finally take the presented opening and say "no". He got called on that last threat, and Milton had backed himself into a corner of his own creation. So he had no choice. The order was cancelled - at least as far as we know today.
IS that good management? Wouldn't a good manager leave a back door?
Milton asked for a lot, in the end too much from ONE (that is very important) employee group. Milton would be the hero if he had succeeded, and certainly that would NOT have been the end of the demands upon the pilots. Milton has made it clear that as far as he is concerned, it is war on the pilot group. That is his interpretation of the "new way of doing business", while speaking out of the other side of his face to the press about wanting a lovey-dovey relationship with the unions - and even despite putting Brewer in as a new front line general with a new propaganda campaign.
As it stands now, Milton is a bit of a lame duck. At the very least, he has lost some face in his necessary face-saving cancellation of the Boeing order. The necessary message to management has been sent. No more concesssions, and if that has not been heard, we are doomed into CCAA again.
Was this Boeing deal planned to fail? We'll see I guess.
edit -- PS - the seniority statements by AC to the press, and by the OAC group are self-serving.
AC is deflecting blame from a their incompetence, and a lousy offer onto the division within the pilot group.
The OAC pilots are attempting to put their agenda on the table, having failed at all other turns. I believe, as original AC (not part of OAC group) that the process has been skewed and biased within the CIRB and not living up to their own preachings BUT hijacking the ratification vote and the PR is very desperate and not a good move.
The press in interpreting the "no" vote with seniority as the primary reason. That is not accurate, and has reflected badly on ACPA much to AC's pleasure. --end edit
Last edited by Grubby; 20th Jun 2005 at 15:55.
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not fully up to speed on the seniority issue at AC, but as I understand it, the decision will be made by the CIRB and not the company? If thats correct and the company has no say in what happens to the seniority list then what benefit was there in voting no? Can AC go to the CIRB to get things done more quickly? Of course if the no vote was based on a lousy deal then that I can understand. I'm not trying to get anyones back up, I'm just trying to be more informed on whats going on.
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bcflyer.
In my view, there isn't much the company can do because they decided to stay out of it from the beginning and let the two unions (acpa/alpa) try to work it out. When the unions couldn't work it out, it whent to arbitration. It didn't have to. The company could have fixed the problem right from the start. CIRB arbitration has not worked either (unless you are an ex CP). Having said that, there are those who believe the company can still influence the board and come up with a more fair seniority list. The NO vote I think was more directed at everyone,ie AC,CIRB,ALPA. The OAC have got nowhere with arbitration and only if you lost as much seniority as some have would you get a real sense of the problem. As for the agreement itself, it was not that great either. So as has been said already, many agendas for the NO vote. Those who enter AC now will not be influenced too much by all this except to hear the "whining" of us OAC pilots.
Still the best job around.
In my view, there isn't much the company can do because they decided to stay out of it from the beginning and let the two unions (acpa/alpa) try to work it out. When the unions couldn't work it out, it whent to arbitration. It didn't have to. The company could have fixed the problem right from the start. CIRB arbitration has not worked either (unless you are an ex CP). Having said that, there are those who believe the company can still influence the board and come up with a more fair seniority list. The NO vote I think was more directed at everyone,ie AC,CIRB,ALPA. The OAC have got nowhere with arbitration and only if you lost as much seniority as some have would you get a real sense of the problem. As for the agreement itself, it was not that great either. So as has been said already, many agendas for the NO vote. Those who enter AC now will not be influenced too much by all this except to hear the "whining" of us OAC pilots.
Still the best job around.
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The hiring will not be affected. AC is hiring because pilots are retiring AND we are buying more planes. Those planes will be used and probably not tripple 7s. However, some are saying that the deal with Boeing could get reignited under a different offer to the pilot group. The circus continues. Stay tuned.
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What a mess. From one standpoint, I'm very happy that the pilots have refused to agree to further concessions. I would rather there be a few good jobs, as opposed to many bad ones, but hey I've always leaned a bit to the right.
From another, I cannot believe that there is a small group that has hijacked this deal because of the seniority issue. Now a huge step forward in cost, efficiency, and worldwide notability for Air Canada has gone off a cliff. Way to go to the small batch of bad apples that have ruined this deal for something that wasn't even being negotiated.
From another, I cannot believe that there is a small group that has hijacked this deal because of the seniority issue. Now a huge step forward in cost, efficiency, and worldwide notability for Air Canada has gone off a cliff. Way to go to the small batch of bad apples that have ruined this deal for something that wasn't even being negotiated.
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If there's one thing OAC pilots are trying to do it's putting a stop to the degradation of our profession. I cannot think of any other pilot group in this country who has had the cahonies to stand up to management for a better contract and seniority. If we succeed, any future AC pilot (not to mention our profession in general) will benefit. Dockjock, if you get hired at AC, are you going to be any worse off retiring on an A340 instead of a 777? The type of airplane ain't what counts. The contract and seniority is the heart and soul of how you live from now until well beyond retirement. When you do retire at AC, remember who fought for your rights and pension. Remember us "bad apples". Man, don't get me going.
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"I cannot believe that there is a small group that has hijacked this deal because of the seniority issue"
You are right in not believing it. I am not an "Original Air Canada Pilot" (Or ex-CP) . I was hired after the merge.
As I understand it, there was a letter signed by 3 OAC guys urging other OAC to vote no to send a message that they are not happy with the way the seniority issues are being handled.
At first I thought they were complete idiots for thinking that this would have any benefit to their cause because the issue will be decided in the courts and nobody can influence the court decisions.
But now I think these guys are a lot smarter than I thought.
They could probably see the No voting coming and thought what a good way to get a little publicity.
Now Boeing, Air Canada, and even ACPA itself are promoting this outright lie so that they don't look ridiculous to the rest of the world. It is a very easy way to save face when a multi-billion dollar deal is canceled because of incompetence in Air Canada management.
They all seem to have their own agenda and it is has nothing to do with the truth.
You are right in not believing it. I am not an "Original Air Canada Pilot" (Or ex-CP) . I was hired after the merge.
As I understand it, there was a letter signed by 3 OAC guys urging other OAC to vote no to send a message that they are not happy with the way the seniority issues are being handled.
At first I thought they were complete idiots for thinking that this would have any benefit to their cause because the issue will be decided in the courts and nobody can influence the court decisions.
But now I think these guys are a lot smarter than I thought.
They could probably see the No voting coming and thought what a good way to get a little publicity.
Now Boeing, Air Canada, and even ACPA itself are promoting this outright lie so that they don't look ridiculous to the rest of the world. It is a very easy way to save face when a multi-billion dollar deal is canceled because of incompetence in Air Canada management.
They all seem to have their own agenda and it is has nothing to do with the truth.
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Dockjock, if you get hired at AC, are you going to be any worse off retiring on an A340 instead of a 777?
I think you guys might have shot yourselves in the foot...we will have to see how it turns out I guess.
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brucelee, trust me when I say I have a hell of a lot of respect for ACPA's vote on this deal. Like I said, I'm happy that you've all stood up to be counted. Its more than can be said for most pilots.
There have been 2 very large lapses of common sense here though. The first one is management in even allowing this, or requiring this to go to the voting stage. They've got the brand new contract in their hands, how much more "cost certainty" can you get? Break out the ol' calculator, and bam that's what the new toys are gonna cost. But no, they wanted more and let the door open a tiny crack for the small faction of disgruntled folks to barge in. Huge mistake. Huge gamble, they lost and I hope it is as embarrassing for them as it would seem to me. Coulda been a sign here, here, and here deal, doneski thank you very much the 777's get here next summer, management and ACPA both look good. But no.
The 2nd one is the so-called "OAC" group. I don't know how large this is, or if it even exists as Lost in Saigon wrote. Who knows. The point is, the margin was very very close and even if a tiny number of pilots voted no purely because of the seniority issue, it changed the course of the company's future success with a single stroke. Shame this wasn't even an issue up for discussion, and by many accounts this was the single reason for these folks turning the vote down.
In any case, it seems that expansion will continue unabated, just not with 777's. Of course I see it doesn't matter which type I fly if I get hired there. Just like anyone, flying the 777 or 787 would have been great, new technology. But let's be honest, I pole around in a B1900D right now so an EMB175 might just as well be a 777 for all I care. I want a good job when I get there, not 90 hrs a month for $40K a year and missing my entire life back here with my family.
I know it will all work itself out, with older aircraft, or a reversal on this one. Who knows, Boeing was beaten handily at Paris, and Airbus has just announced a price increase...maybe there are more than a couple interested parties in getting a new deal done?
There have been 2 very large lapses of common sense here though. The first one is management in even allowing this, or requiring this to go to the voting stage. They've got the brand new contract in their hands, how much more "cost certainty" can you get? Break out the ol' calculator, and bam that's what the new toys are gonna cost. But no, they wanted more and let the door open a tiny crack for the small faction of disgruntled folks to barge in. Huge mistake. Huge gamble, they lost and I hope it is as embarrassing for them as it would seem to me. Coulda been a sign here, here, and here deal, doneski thank you very much the 777's get here next summer, management and ACPA both look good. But no.
The 2nd one is the so-called "OAC" group. I don't know how large this is, or if it even exists as Lost in Saigon wrote. Who knows. The point is, the margin was very very close and even if a tiny number of pilots voted no purely because of the seniority issue, it changed the course of the company's future success with a single stroke. Shame this wasn't even an issue up for discussion, and by many accounts this was the single reason for these folks turning the vote down.
In any case, it seems that expansion will continue unabated, just not with 777's. Of course I see it doesn't matter which type I fly if I get hired there. Just like anyone, flying the 777 or 787 would have been great, new technology. But let's be honest, I pole around in a B1900D right now so an EMB175 might just as well be a 777 for all I care. I want a good job when I get there, not 90 hrs a month for $40K a year and missing my entire life back here with my family.
I know it will all work itself out, with older aircraft, or a reversal on this one. Who knows, Boeing was beaten handily at Paris, and Airbus has just announced a price increase...maybe there are more than a couple interested parties in getting a new deal done?
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The OAC group is made up of approx. 1200 pilots. It does egsist and is not to be underestimated. Within this group you will find largely a mix of A320, CRJ Capts and F/Os as well as the widebody RPs. All original AC, all people who have lost up to several hundred seniority numbers and all the hardship that goes along with that. That may not mean much to you unless you work here. To top it all off the 320 guys took an extra 5% cut on top of the 15% handed to everyone. Why? Who knows? Look, I could go on forever on why this group is pissed off. It's not just seniority, but that's the big part. I'm willing to bet that if any one of you do-gooders was one those guys, you'd be pissed off too. AC management is good at making us look bad. Don't be surprized to see tripple 7s at AC next year.
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Brucelee and many others,
Thanks for the insights you have provided, I admit I have been operating on limited information that seeps out to the general population and these sites. Like so much else in life this is certainly not a one or two sided argument and I have learnt a good deal from the comments here. It would be nice to see our profession upgraded and to stop some of the blame always falling to our group. I wish you guys all the best and hopefully if I get in the door I can say "Thanks"
Good Luck!
Thanks for the insights you have provided, I admit I have been operating on limited information that seeps out to the general population and these sites. Like so much else in life this is certainly not a one or two sided argument and I have learnt a good deal from the comments here. It would be nice to see our profession upgraded and to stop some of the blame always falling to our group. I wish you guys all the best and hopefully if I get in the door I can say "Thanks"
Good Luck!
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Slowstream
Thanks for your support. Some of us have been put in a situation we would much rather not be in. AC is a great company and a great job. Over the years, our union(s) have worked hard to give us the lifestyle we enjoy today. Unfortunately, for various reasons, those benefits could slowly slip away if we sat on our hands. We all have worked hard to get where we are. Unfortunately, there will always be a battle to fight. That's life. But as I've said many times before, it's still the best gig around and I wouldn't trade it for anything else.
Thanks for your support. Some of us have been put in a situation we would much rather not be in. AC is a great company and a great job. Over the years, our union(s) have worked hard to give us the lifestyle we enjoy today. Unfortunately, for various reasons, those benefits could slowly slip away if we sat on our hands. We all have worked hard to get where we are. Unfortunately, there will always be a battle to fight. That's life. But as I've said many times before, it's still the best gig around and I wouldn't trade it for anything else.
Last edited by brucelee; 21st Jun 2005 at 13:52.
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It's funny because I've not been a pro-union guy most of my life until I began flying. Kudos to ACPA for not taking it. A couple of points occur to me as read this string and others on Avcanada:
1. Whay the hell did AC buy CP outright anyway? Wait until they are bankrupt and buy the pieces you want. You buy a company in financial trouble and inherit the trouble. You also create a problem in the unions on seniority issues. Buy the equipment and routes you want, and hire experienced people but without seniority issues. This wasn't the only thing that pushed AC into bankruptcy protection, but it was definetly a prime causal factor.
2. AC just signed a deal with the pilots good through 2009. Honor the deal. Their own deal they negotiated isn't good enough? Even without the seniority issue I'm not surprised at a no vote. Youe beat someone long enough, don't be surprised if they start fighting back.
3. I would think that in the long run in would be to AC management's benefit to help push along a settlement of seniority issues in the pilot group, or any group. I think perhaps there is such a strong dislike among key management figures for the pilots that they like the irony of problems in the pilot group. However it is a long term thorn in the side of AC. Take a leadership role and make a statement and get involved in helping find labour peace. It is to the benefit of AC as a whole.
I think AC is making some good moves right now. The growth of the maintenannce division, etc. The order of new Boeing seemed very forward thinking. AC management set up the scenario that allowed for the possibility of a no vote. This is their screw up.
This is merely the point of view of an interested observer, not an AC driver.
1. Whay the hell did AC buy CP outright anyway? Wait until they are bankrupt and buy the pieces you want. You buy a company in financial trouble and inherit the trouble. You also create a problem in the unions on seniority issues. Buy the equipment and routes you want, and hire experienced people but without seniority issues. This wasn't the only thing that pushed AC into bankruptcy protection, but it was definetly a prime causal factor.
2. AC just signed a deal with the pilots good through 2009. Honor the deal. Their own deal they negotiated isn't good enough? Even without the seniority issue I'm not surprised at a no vote. Youe beat someone long enough, don't be surprised if they start fighting back.
3. I would think that in the long run in would be to AC management's benefit to help push along a settlement of seniority issues in the pilot group, or any group. I think perhaps there is such a strong dislike among key management figures for the pilots that they like the irony of problems in the pilot group. However it is a long term thorn in the side of AC. Take a leadership role and make a statement and get involved in helping find labour peace. It is to the benefit of AC as a whole.
I think AC is making some good moves right now. The growth of the maintenannce division, etc. The order of new Boeing seemed very forward thinking. AC management set up the scenario that allowed for the possibility of a no vote. This is their screw up.
This is merely the point of view of an interested observer, not an AC driver.