Air Canada Goes Boeing
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From: Canada (Southeastern Québec)
Air Canada Goes Boeing
AC has finally announced its widebody order.
Air Canada Order
A total of 18 777s of various types, plus 18 options, and 14 787s with 46 options. The latter to replace, eventually, the 767s.
Probably not a good day to be in an Airbus board room...
Mike
Air Canada Order
A total of 18 777s of various types, plus 18 options, and 14 787s with 46 options. The latter to replace, eventually, the 767s.
Probably not a good day to be in an Airbus board room...
Mike
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Oh, Canada. Eh ?
The A330s and A340s (both 343 and 345) will eventually all be replaced with 777-300ER and 777-200LR. The 767 fleet, some over 20 years old, will be replaced by 787s, with short term capacity needs being shouldered by "newer" 767s being brought in from KLM and Kenyan.
There are a number of press releases out there which discuss the reasoning behind the choice - suggest going to
www.achorizons.ca to check out the full story.
There are a number of press releases out there which discuss the reasoning behind the choice - suggest going to
www.achorizons.ca to check out the full story.
. Groundschools starting up soon, I hope!
Rebel PPRuNer
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Did anyone seriously (I mean this) think Boeing weren't going to win?
Love to hear from anyone who did and why.
I hope Bob M got an extra discount for prefacing the A380 first flight so nicely, rather than announcing in June as previously advised.
Love to hear from anyone who did and why.
I hope Bob M got an extra discount for prefacing the A380 first flight so nicely, rather than announcing in June as previously advised.
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From: Oh, Canada. Eh ?
MarkD
No, most thought Boeing was going to win.
No-one here thought the dynamics or benefits of the A350 were anywhere near as good as the 787. We need the 787 sooner than 2010, but obviously the financial status of ACE meant we had to dither, hence the reason why we'll take over leases on ex-KLM and Kenyan 76s in the run-up to 787 introduction, amongst others.
As an aside, the 76s are tired, and in terms of configuration and commonality a bit of a nightmare. They are also not exactly the best equipment for YYZ-LHR, CDG - capacity being an issue, and not as "tasty" as the Speedbird Triple 7s doing the Pond Hop. They were good in their day of course.
As far as 777-300ER and 777-200LR are concerned - that surprized some in that they thought we'd stick with A345 and take A346 - the higher weight flavour - but, it seems the operating economics of the Triple 7, based on the current and emerging route structure, and the early horrors of the 345, and the unpopular 343 (look at the mess it made of YYZ-DEL "nonstop") helped seal that part of the deal.
Additionally, I've personally heard the Boeing T+Cs were extremely lucrative, from the 767 placement all the way through to the terms for the new aircraft...
I'll sniff around for other snippets...
PS Air India also went the Triple 7 and B787 path, with 2 wins about to be announced...
No, most thought Boeing was going to win.
No-one here thought the dynamics or benefits of the A350 were anywhere near as good as the 787. We need the 787 sooner than 2010, but obviously the financial status of ACE meant we had to dither, hence the reason why we'll take over leases on ex-KLM and Kenyan 76s in the run-up to 787 introduction, amongst others.
As an aside, the 76s are tired, and in terms of configuration and commonality a bit of a nightmare. They are also not exactly the best equipment for YYZ-LHR, CDG - capacity being an issue, and not as "tasty" as the Speedbird Triple 7s doing the Pond Hop. They were good in their day of course.
As far as 777-300ER and 777-200LR are concerned - that surprized some in that they thought we'd stick with A345 and take A346 - the higher weight flavour - but, it seems the operating economics of the Triple 7, based on the current and emerging route structure, and the early horrors of the 345, and the unpopular 343 (look at the mess it made of YYZ-DEL "nonstop") helped seal that part of the deal.
Additionally, I've personally heard the Boeing T+Cs were extremely lucrative, from the 767 placement all the way through to the terms for the new aircraft...
I'll sniff around for other snippets...
PS Air India also went the Triple 7 and B787 path, with 2 wins about to be announced...
Rebel PPRuNer
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Inuksuk
All you said makes sense. The freighter 777 was a help too I suspect - the Globe article lauding the MD11 operation the day before the order seemed less than a coincidence. I hear talk of wingleting some 767s too?
Have been on BA 777 YUL-LHR but didn't like the back row - seat doesn't recline, bad news at 6'2"
That's the last time I meekly accept being shoved back 14 rows at the gate 
As for the "CP stitch-up"
let's be moving on eh?
All you said makes sense. The freighter 777 was a help too I suspect - the Globe article lauding the MD11 operation the day before the order seemed less than a coincidence. I hear talk of wingleting some 767s too?
Have been on BA 777 YUL-LHR but didn't like the back row - seat doesn't recline, bad news at 6'2"
That's the last time I meekly accept being shoved back 14 rows at the gate As for the "CP stitch-up"
let's be moving on eh?
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From: Canada
I find it quite odd that Air Canada has picked the 787. Its just a paper airplane right now. Where are the guarantees that it will be so inexpensive to operate?
I think someone at Boeing greased some big wheels at Air Canada.
I think someone at Boeing greased some big wheels at Air Canada.
Rebel PPRuNer
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
STC
The A350-800 AND -900 are also paper aircraft. The 777 is at least in service. So advantage Boeing?
Analyse the AC requirement and come back to us when you can demonstrate how Airbus could replace the WB more effectively than Boeing, and why AC should give them the benefit of the doubt when having operated the A345 to their apparent disadvantage.
The A350-800 AND -900 are also paper aircraft. The 777 is at least in service. So advantage Boeing?
Analyse the AC requirement and come back to us when you can demonstrate how Airbus could replace the WB more effectively than Boeing, and why AC should give them the benefit of the doubt when having operated the A345 to their apparent disadvantage.
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From: Oh, Canada. Eh ?
Any airline choosing a new aircraft will have performance guarantees in the contract. This includes range, weight, speeds, fuel burn etc etc....
A350 service date is 2010 I think, the 787 goes into service before, although the 787 doesn't come to AC before 2010 - so at least it will be in service and glitches ironed out - as there always are when a new type enters revenue service, no matter the exhaustive testing.
Don't know how many A350s have been ordered...but I think it's miniscule compared to the momentum 787 has gotten right now. If the A350 doesn't yield more orders, one might assume the programme might even be canceled - not the first time it's happened.
Comments anyone ?
A350 service date is 2010 I think, the 787 goes into service before, although the 787 doesn't come to AC before 2010 - so at least it will be in service and glitches ironed out - as there always are when a new type enters revenue service, no matter the exhaustive testing.
Don't know how many A350s have been ordered...but I think it's miniscule compared to the momentum 787 has gotten right now. If the A350 doesn't yield more orders, one might assume the programme might even be canceled - not the first time it's happened.
Comments anyone ?
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From: Canada
MarkD,
From what I know of the 787, its not just the performance numbers airlines should be weary of.
The 787 introduces many exotic building techniques and materials. There will be a huge learning curve involved in maintaining these beasts.
I find it odd that an airline like AC that is barely surviving as it is, would be so anxious to be the guinea pig for Boeing on this airplane.
From what I know of the 787, its not just the performance numbers airlines should be weary of.
The 787 introduces many exotic building techniques and materials. There will be a huge learning curve involved in maintaining these beasts.
I find it odd that an airline like AC that is barely surviving as it is, would be so anxious to be the guinea pig for Boeing on this airplane.
Rebel PPRuNer
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
STC, fair enough, but they would still have some inservice issues with the 350. 787 is going to have a lot of guinea pigs unlike the A345.
At the end of the day, Bob Milton wanted a two-supplier airline and now he's got it. Roll on Airbus' 320 successor and let's see if he still wants one by then!
At the end of the day, Bob Milton wanted a two-supplier airline and now he's got it. Roll on Airbus' 320 successor and let's see if he still wants one by then!
Rebel PPRuNer
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Boeing and AC reach agreement:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/nat...an-051109.html
18 777 (starting March 07) + 18 options
14 787 (starting 2010) + 46 options
http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/nat...an-051109.html
18 777 (starting March 07) + 18 options
14 787 (starting 2010) + 46 options
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From: Canada
Don't know how many A350s have been ordered...but I think it's miniscule compared to the momentum 787 has gotten right now.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
Airbus A350: 143
http://v4.airbus.com/en/presscentre/...5_eurofly.html