It's the "I have a reasonable expectation to use any loo should I require" , that puts I and perhaps others on an anti stance though.

If you are that desperate then yes goodness, I'm not expecting you to pee yourself - when I was in the cabin I ushered many an elderly person or child up to a free bathroom, but what you are saying smacks a bit of "I'm coming through and blow the rest of you and what you think".

And if you work in the industry shirley you realise that airlines sell premium products with the expectation that the products are not mixed, otherwise the point of paying more is somewhat lost.

As for an upgrade - if you get one bloody well enjoy it sir.

Let's get elitist... Those who pay the extra for Business/First/Upper - call it what you will, might reasonably expect to fully enjoy the privileges that go with that class of ticket. For the majority of airlines the product offered includes access to premium lounges, priority boarding, a larger seat pitch, better food and drink and less people around you. So looking at this from a premium passenger's point of view - If I needed to use the loo I would really be hacked off if I had to queue behind someone from the "cheap seats." I would also be miffed if the loos were forever being used by everyone else, if for no other reason that the more the loo is used, the dirtier it gets. A constant trail of people through "my space" would also get on my tits. I would also be annoyed if some bugger nicked my luggage space. But it's up to the cabin crew to look after those who pay their wages: those in the premium seats. Failure to do this will drive away the premium passengers to an airline that will look after them.

And for those you who can't control your bladders, may I suggest that flying is for not for you.

PM

Easily fixed! When I see this I relocate the bag to an economy overhead locker. The hapless offender panicks when they walk through business, to find their bag missing. I am unable (farewelling at the forward door) to assist in locating the bag until all pax have disembarked.
The pax is unlikely to reoffend.

Piltdown Man...agree on all points. As I said when this thread opened, until someone takes note of the fact that there is an increasing number in society that will no longer fly because...... We expect to pay a decent rate on ticket procurement and for that expect a decent seat,adequate toilets and a degree of comfort. The last time I flew showed limited toilet facilities, a continual "trolley" parade blocking the aisle and seats that were made for a neanderthal skeletons rse not a humans, and leg space fit only for a midget. Lets be realistic, cc have my sympathy as indeed many users leave a lot to be desired. I have sat too many times amid the "families from hell" or the geezer who thinks swilling a gut full of ale is acceptable before flying. Accordingly, invaders of first class space is not acceptable. I have just returned via Southampton from my latest venture abroad. Transfer to ship...one hour and thirty minutes. Car taken by valet parking...hassle over. Toilet facilities at the pier head/embarkation hall. On return car keys brought onto the ship and home to Suffolk in four and a half hours. I did,nt have to bed down in a terminal, or stand out in the cold in London waiting for a train journey. Dont get me wrong, I would love to fly again but, until aircraft design and carriers underpin my needs....like many others....NO.

This is a very interesting topic.

It is quite understandable that passengers and crew in the premium cabin would not welcome pax from economy using their facilities-after all the fare price difference is vast and is so for a reason (better ratio of pax to cabin crew and facilities,peace and quiet etc)...on the other hand, sometimes the toilet facilities in the economy cabin are abysmally inadequate, especially at peak times.I agree that 'discreetly escorting' those pax who appear in a degree of discomfort is the best course of action in such instances.:ok:

What I would like to raise, on a related topic,is what do cabin crew think about pax who are seated in economy class coming up into premium class for short periods during flight if they have colleagues or relatives seated in premium?

I shall relate an incident that happened on a Gulf carrier en route to Bahrein four years ago...I was seated in economy,while my elderly parents were seated in Business class, as theirs had been the last two premium tickets available when we booked our trip. I have flown that segment of airway before (as cockpit crewfor a different operator) and know the landmarks well.We were approaching Zanzibar.We had recently been on holiday there and I wanted to point the island out to my father. It was about 3pm, there was no meal service on at the time and the whole aircraft was fairly quiet.I discreetly made my way into premium class and in a hushed voice, pointed the sight out to my father. I was engaged in a very discreet conversation when a young and extremely cocky flight attendant approached me and told me to remove myself from the premium cabin at once. I was both infuriated and disgusted.The matter was quickly sorted out when I demanded the ICFA be summoned and the extremely forceful attendant was made to apologise by the ICFA, but I was wondering what the general consensus is on such situations?

(As a footnote, my father, a senior figure in the travel industry, had been invited by the very airline i am referring to to, to sample their service in order to possibly send his passengers via BAH to europe and the Far East...needless to say her heavy handed approach did nothing to endear him to the airline in question and I'm not sure they got any further business out of him) (As a post-footnote, the ICFA, a charming lady, was just smashing in how she handled the situation.)

You clearly have it in for me Tightslot. Your behaviour is extremely childish.Please tell me, what exactly is it about that post that you dislike? Please...enlighten me.

Perhaps you should read your own "Moderators Forum Rules" in the "Forum FAQ & useful links" at the top of the thread list, which say,in case you need refreshing,:

"Personal attacks on others are not allowed. If you cannot counter an argument without attacking the person, then do not post here. Play the ball, not the player"...

So, Tightslot, are you going to play by your own rules then? It doesn't look like you are...:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

Whilst I would not condone a "heavy handed" approach as you suggest the CC used. I would have thought that you should have asked to enter the Premium Cabin and not "made your way" into that cabin. If you had taken that approach then you would not have had any confrontation to deal with!

Regards,

G-BPED

gchangflyer - you have probably failed to grasp an important piece of etiquette when flying as a passenger - it's not your aircraft. So when you want to "cross a boundary" you should ask first. It doesn't matter who you are are who you were speaking to, the cabin crew who spoke you was doing their job and you still fail to realise that. It is very disappointing to think that you might actually fly an aircraft for a living - dealing with people like you who can be so quickly offended for such little things makes everybody's lives more difficult than they need to be.

Please tell me I've misunderstood.

PM

"The matter was quickly sorted out when I demanded the ICFA be summoned and the extremely forceful attendant be made to apologise"

I think this may be the cause of the adverse reaction to your post. Whether you like it or not, the cabin crew member was doing their job, albeit with a rather less than diplomatic touch. To summon their boss and make the person concerned apologise was pompous and unnecessary. A discreet apology from the senior crew member would have been fine, but to insist on the humiliation of the junior member was not an action you should be proud of.

gchangflyer:

As a passenger I can see some obvious problems with your conduct and your approach to the situation you described.

The most obvious is that you entered the Premium cabin without requesting permission from Cabin Crew...simply inappropriate.

Secondly, you seem to have forgotten that the other passengers who paid for premium service (and part of that service includes peace) may not appreciate your presence in their cabin.

Your fathers' status (or yours) means nothing. The individual seated across the aisle from your parents who may have been annoyed by your intrusion may also represent a significant number of bookings.*

You may have received an "apology" from the Cabin Crew member, but I have a suspicion that it was done for the purpose of getting an irritating passenger under control and the situation over.

As much as I agree that rudeness is always unfortunate your complaint reads as another one of the "I know there are rules but they shouldn't have applied to me in this instance" stories I'm getting quite used to reading on this forum.

*And the number of bookings represented by any individual is actually irrelevant to the actual flight. An individual who was flying Premium for the first and only time is still entitled to the full Premium product on the flight they have booked. I'm sure in retrospect you can understand the error of your actions though the juvenile multiple waving of the finger posts should leave me in doubt.

Valid point...I would have asked permission but the CC in Economy were all in their crew rest area/absent and not visible, as, when I went to the galley there was just one lady, snoozing, on a plastic crate.I wasn't going to wake her for that .Now the galley in Premium was at the FRONT of their cabin, so to ask would have meant entering in the first place.I understand the reasoning though.

Oh, and just to add clarity... I asked the (very loud) junior CC to please CALL her ICFA as I was not prepared to enter a loud debate with her in the aisle...when the ICFA came and I explained, it was the ICFA who made the junior apologise...I certainly didn't ask for that at all, I wanted just to point out the landmark then go back to my seat.

Actually from a regulatory standpoint an aircraft must have one lav minimum for every 50 pax. On a narrow body with a dozen business class seats legally the fwd lav should be available to all pax. A lav is not a luxury item but a necessity of operation.

grounded27: I've been strolling across the internet looking for references and did not see that specific requirement for flights originating in the U.K..

Though if we are speaking of a narrow body with a premium class of only 12 its short haul and the issue is not that dramatic if I'm not mistaken.

Any reference to regulations for specific aircraft and flight duration would be of interest. Amazing what our minds get to thinking about.

As for a lav not being a luxury, that is true in some cases, but not everyone books Ryanair.

The ATR72 has one lav for up to 72 pax.

If I am in a taxi I do not expect other people to jump in and hitch a free ride. Isn't this a rather similar analogy?

If I've paid a premium fare, and for me it's about space and comfort rather than caviar and champagne, I don't expect someone from steerage to come and encroach on the space I've paid for, nor for that matter to come and eat my caviar (disgusting stuff, I'd gladly give it to them!).

Cultural differences
 

Well, reading this thread has been an education ! I hadn't realised the class tensions prevalent in the cabin. All a foreign country to me. It does remind me of an incident I witnessed in the unlamented UK Railtrack company some years ago. This legacy of British Rail came with a hand-cart of custom and practice (some of them Spanish) and stiff upper lip attitudes. The ex British Rail staff still got their complementary travel which in this case included first class travel, and concessions for your family and servants :rolleyes:.

One day, a senior manager came into the office exuberant that an inspector had got on and flushed the oikes out of first class where they had no right to be. They were there because the train was 'full and standing'. So this comedian was jubilant that his customers had been denied access to the area which he ungraciously got for nothing. So it is still 'four legs good, two legs better'.

I've had a good chuckle reading this thread. A fair smattering of elitism and entrenched attitudes seem evident.

Most of my flying these day is confined to European destinations where premium accommodation, whatever it might be termed by the individual operator, is usually delimited by no more than a moveable curtain and where the seats and fwd loo are exactly the same as in cattle class.

I always book a C aisle seat as far forward as possible and sit out the rush so am nearly always nearly last on board and therefore have no compunction whatsoever in stowing my bag in the 1st bin with available space which invariably will be in the premium section. To suggest that I am 'stealing' something by doing so is preposterous.

Neither do I have any qualms about using the the fwd loo in preference to fighting my way back 20 odd rows and through the service trolleys and/or other pax moving about or queuing for the rear loos.

Furthermore, as disturbance seems to be quoted as a major factor, I can assure you that I am always very careful not to disturb anyone unnecessarily on any flight (no matter where they are on the plane) and would suggest that the noise and disturbance of an attendant trying to persuade me to go aft would certainly be many times worse than any I could or would personally create if left alone.

That all said, wherever possible I always make sure that I use the loo before I board and I reckon the number of times I actually need to use one inflight is no more than about 1 in 10, I wish I could say the same for fellow pax seated in A & B !

gchangflyer,

as you say, . I have flown that segment of airway before (as cockpit crewfor a different operator)
why did you not just pick up the in seat phone and ring your father at is seat, you would have know this was the best option if like you say you are air crew.:confused:

One problem genius...no phone at my seat in economy:D