Miss M,

Discrimination, in legal terms, is a very clearly defined term. An employer may not discriminate by race, colour, gender or age. Applying different terms based on any other criteria may not be fair, but discriminatory, it is not. Besides, being non-contractual, it matters not anyway.

There is a big difference between what one may believe is morally right, and what is legally so.

This seems to me to be the truth. All BA are watching what this LT do and they will all see that they cannot take a dispute to the point of IA. I'm not sure I can see that as a message of loyalty to those who acted to strike break...but I do think it is a message.

Our contracts already are as basic as you suggest here:
The industrial agreements are in addition. Do you really suggest that contemporary contracts do not include job-descriptions and details? Do you mean that is where you would like BA to go with all contracts, or just the cabin crew ones? Would BA be better of without the GSS, Pilot, A scale, engineering, management, tech management and non craft agreements?

I would have thought it would create utter chaos. Surely a corporation needs a balance between flexibility and rigidity? Not totally one or the other?

Disgusting to whom?You?BASSA?, once again your failing to see this from anyone elses point of view. Unfortunately BASSA don't appear to see the bigger picture either.

BASSA propaganda yet again, I don't think the company can spare the amount of people they have trained, but BASSA have given BA little choice. Just 10% of those trained were used over the strike period because regular crew came to work.

I don't wish to labour the point, see my earlier post on the layperson and their interpretation of the law:ok:

I understand the company are using an unnecessary night stop in Shannon on Monday night to highlight to investors why 1970s cabin crew contracts need to be altered to reflect the challenges of operating in 2010:ok: Talk about crew shooting themselves in the foot, interestingly all the other widebodies were able to fuel and go.

If I were crew I would be more concerned about the quality of information BASSA have been supply from November 2008 to the present day, and how BA can crew 3 747 departures with volunteer crew without as much of a whimper from BASSA:eek::eek:

Edited to add
I'm so, so sorry to hear this...our posts crossed and I don't want you to imagine I ignored your much more important message.
Please be carfeful about expressing your feeling here or anywhere else. You are frightened and angry, don't give them anything else to use and manipulate.


The fact is that the law is indeed a strange place for most people. A possible case over staff travel is not impossible just because the company declare it to be discretionary.
There are legal precedents which show that the courts will still consider whether it has become contractual through custom and practice.
The company have to make a case for the discretion they use in applying or withholding discretionary benefits.
There are individuals who seem to have a slightly different case based on the fact that some staff travel is awarded for promotion...all sorts of possible complications.

However, I totally agree that it is a long, slow, and expensive way to go.


The only certain thing with the law is that it is never certain.:)

Jemina:

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then I am sure you will be reinstated.

The sad truth is that once war is declared the innocent become collateral damage.

Jemina,

I echo L337's comments and would like to add, that new ways of people communicating like Facebook and forums such as these, have only been around a relatively short time and what is and isn't possible with them is a mystery to many, myself included.

If you can so easily, unwittingly become a "bully" via what OTHERS imput onto your space, that's worrying indeed. It sounds like you need to take an expert in how mediums such as Facebook work, into your disciplinary hearing with you. If you can prove that it's possible to appear guilty as easily as you say through no action on your part, I would think you have a good chance of winning.

Try to be calm and reasonable in your approach, rather than combatitive, even though I know it must be hard for you. In my experience, that's the best way to get a favourable hearing.

Good luck.

Hi Jemima,

If your version of events is 100% true, then i can't see how you will not be reinstated.
Its seems you've been 'naive' at worst.

If you do lose your job and your post isn't missing any salient points then you seem to have a very good case for unfair dismissal. I'm sure however BA will treat you fairly in your hearing though ??

Good luck.

I totally agree.

You have been suckered in, and treated for a fool --- by Bassa.
Bassa have lied and misled you relentlessly. In fact they have shown by example how NOT to be honest , open, objective and informative.

Bassa have done their very best to incite hatred and division amongst all BA staff, especially crew. At no time have Bassa tried to stop the intimidation of "scabs" or vcc; or anyone who dares to speak out or question the Bassa line!

BA have a duty to protect EVERYBODY.
So if a complaint is made they have to follow it up.

This is why there will be no amnesty because justice must be done, and be seen to be done.

If all Jemima did was to receive some messages on her wall then it is impossible that she would be sacked.

However somebody, somewhere, must have initiated the message.
What did it say? Was it a threat? Or a list of volunteers?

Jemima, you are also a victim because you have been suspended at a similar time as many of your colleagues. Some of their offences are probably significantly more serious and may well be sackable, if not criminal, offences.

As a fellow BA staff member I would defend your right to a fair hearing fiercely.
Just as I would defend any victim of bullying or harrassment.

Jemina
 

Hang in there, I'm sure it will all work out fine in the end. If you feel like it, by asking BA for a timetable of what is going to happen and when you can return to work (be positive presumptious in a friendly way) it might chivvy them along to make a decision and probably give you the 'don't do it again' stern talking to. If you make an explicit request for a timetable and they don't respond a lawyer would make it look like they were being unreasonable and bullying.

I'd recommend you to write a full and detailed account of what happened for your own records. Ask someone you trust to read it so that it is thoroughly proof read and very clear if you ever had to rely on it at a later stage. I'd be surprised if you would have to though. Probably worthwhile to make sure BA get a copy if they call you in for a chat so that they can't argue they weren't aware of your side.

I hope your Union are supporting you with appropriate legal support/advice?

Jemina
Fully support what deamon monkey says. Tried to send you a mail but got a mailbox quota reply saying full up. This suggests that folk out here care for you unlike BA perhaps. They only worry about WW's ego.
Don't let the buggers get you down :mad:

Not meaning to be cynical but..

From

Even from BASSA i'm not seeing anyone suspended simply for having stuff not written by them on their Facebook wall.

March 14? That's an old list - I have heard of others having been suspended after that date.

Are you sure that Jemina is in BASSA? She doesn't say anything about union membership...only that she does not take part in strikes. Could be non union or part of CC89/Amicus?

What do you think about todays request (from BA) that we work with regular crews but include 2 volunteer crew members to get through the repatriation and back to a normal schedule?

I find it hard to understand how the need to keep their identities secret (like in the facebook suspensions etc) can be made to fit with them working along with regular crew.

winston...yes it is a very old list...galley fm says there are about 50 suspended and 6 sacked.

Why?

I'm suspended too for the same reason and I was applauding her bravery especially in the face of the earlier responses which were soon after deleted.

Hand Solo
What complete tosh! BA CC have always been Performance Managed, everyone is assessed on the a/c every 120 days. CSD's have an annual appraisal where one of our KPI's is how many assessments we have completed on our crew. Additionally, the CCM team manage attendance and punctuality in a very pro-active way. UK employment law does not allow one to simply 'performance manage' the bottom 10% out of the company; there is a very lengthy series of warnings and stages beforehand. :=

ottergirl
 

Think you misunderstand performance management - it would be performed on a per flight basis based upon customer surveys - the same as is norm in many industries....

PM?
 

Sorry to sound stupid but how do I PM someone on this forum?

I asked for my post to be deleted because I regret posting it. I realise that it was probably not a good idea to write about it but it's something I did in the heat of the moment. I have had messages sent to me since I wrote it implying that I'm representing BASSA and that my posting appeared at a convenient time.

I can't, or don't want to, give details about the messages at Facebook.

I just wanted to share my story. All of us who have been suspended are not evil or abusive people who deserve to be suspended. I know that most have been suspended because they have shown an aggressive and threatening behaviour. That's something I think should be dealt with. I have always kept a low profile at work, avoided discussions about the strike, never been nasty towards anyone or used nicknames. I have been against this strike from the very beginning and would have gone to work if I hadn't been suspended.

I know BA is acting as they should as there's a procedure for this. But, I haven't done anything wrong but I still have to face all of this. It's taking a very long time. I don't know what will happen. I'm sad. I'm scared to death. I'm suffering financially. I'm worried.

But, no. I'm not representing BASSA neither am I a union rep.

Ottergirl,
IFA assessments are exactly that, an assessment of your performance inflight and in my view it's not enough. Whilst you as a Customer Service Trainer does performance manage, and so do I, we both know that majority of our supervisory colleagues don't.
The trouble is that some of our colleagues see the job as a popularity contest and when it comes to real performance management, won't put pen to paper. This is the reason certain individuals in the company have got away with 'murder' so to speak.
Additionally, a lot of junior crew have also been scared to document inappropriate or unprofessional behaviour from some senior crew who in turn have got away without being performance managed through lack of evidence.

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views.

Performance management
 

Sorry but cabin crew aren't performance managed. When they are they, most likely, will be assessed on a regular basis. (which I think Ottergirl was referring too) but they will also have a a annual performance review where their owning manager will discuss their work over the year. Anything from helping pax out during disruption, applying for promotion, letters from customers, even to uniform standards will be taken in to account. The crew member will then be put in some sort of band, from memory Exceptional, Substantial, Strong, Developing, Weak.

Your pay-rise and any bonus (if any) will be calculated from your performance, and effectively if you continue to have weak performance you could be 'managed out of the business'.

This is the way the airline is going for all staff, by the looks of it.

Ottergirl

You are probably one of the conscientous csd's who assesses accurately and honestly.
But you don't get the opportunity to see just how poorly your job is sometimes done by others.

Ottergirl,

Look at the new performance management process for the management community and pay particular attention to the section entitled 'Forced Distribution' which makes reference to the bottom %age being managed out of the business.

If it starts here, its only a matter of time before it is rolled out across the rest of the company.:mad:

I thought it was pretty clear that this 'forced disribution' and performance based pay is intended for the whole of BA when we saw the Pp slides regarding the desired structure for cabin crew from the January negotiaitions.

I think the 'forced distribution' part is the pattern for the initial period...it is designed to accelerate the results of performance management.

Has nobody any information about the decision to mix the regular and volunteer crews? I had the one email yesterday. Have the volunteers been informed about this plan?

essessdeedee
 

Are you suggesting that there should be a cull of % crew members a year, based on some sort of review?

The corporate policy being rolled out through the rest of the business has something along the lines of 'find new job or exit the business' for the lowest performing percentage. Can't remember if it's 5% or 10%, but it's what is worked to by management and 'band 3' staff... If I am seen to be under performing, the view would be that either I'm in the wrong job, or that I'm the wrong person for the company.

The views above are my own and not those of my employer.

Measured against what?

Keith Williams??? You think?

I have seen posts by some of these people saying they have not been awarded any bonus because the scheme...while it is in this 'forced distribution' mode, it means that it is not possible for all the group to be found to be performing adequately or meeting all standards...the bottom 10% has to be under the bar.

I think, after a period it is supposed to change to a mode where the bottom 10% are also deemed to be possibly good at their jobs too...

It reminds me of the very old A level and O level system....followed by the shift to the current one.

Tragic for any department that is made up of really good people, but maybe department heads have the ability to plead exceptional group performance?

So in that system you could still find yourself out of a job, when you have achieved all the required standards?

Lightbulbs,

Like I said...its a bit like the old education exams...the effect is that you are benchmarked against your peers, not some external standard. If your in a very high performing group, you're in the do doo. If you work with malingering idle good for nothings, you'll be good.

I'm sure that's an oversimplification and there must be another layer of benchmarking that overlies the departmental one.

Forced distribution is based on the assumption that there is a lot of poor performance that needs very stringent managing and that this is reduced over time until you reach a healthy work culture. Once you get there then you change the model to one where the performance is benchmarked on an external standard again.

Reargunner
 

Are you measured objectively or just by someones opinion? WW or BF have never said that BA crew are poor, they just don't want them striking.

I don't how performance management will improve the IR issues at BA.

Its not supposed to. Its supposed to improve the safety and customer service issues that a very small minority of our cabin crew have.

None of this is part of the dispute anyhow, its been predicted for the future though.

What issues have BA got, or is it what issues do people who post on here have with BA crew?

Absolutely agree. But BA staff are assessed as Ottergirl explained. I was just wondering why performance management appeared on this thread.

Performance Management? This should be interesting to see how it is performed seeing as BA is not an expert when it comes to administration or paper work. You put something on the post addressed to Cranebank only to be told that nobody has no idea who has it. You leave a sick note in the red box and it goes missing.

Having spoken briefly with Martin Broughton on a flight back from FAO ,an sccm would be taking 17 crew under his / her wing ,performance managing them (part of a larger group that would consist of 17 sccms each responsible for 17 crew).Every month each sccm would be ground based dealing with everyday crew problems of the whole lot ie. 17x17 for two days,refering back any problems that arise to the relevant sccm responsible for the crew member.I got the impression that the sccms would fly regularly with their bunch,thus being in a far better position to monitor their performance.
This would seem a far better way to have feedback on crew than the current system of managers who each have far too many crew to manage,who dont get the opportunity to see how crew work onboard,who have to rely on IFAs to get any idea on a crewmember,and who probably would not recognise one of their team if he walked right in front of them.

The best thing about being in this industry for a quarter of a century is that you get to see old ideas, which didn't work and were scrapped, being reinvented and launched to a great fanfare. So here we go again!

Last time (circa mid 90's) it was called FIP (Fleet Improvement Plan) every CSD had a PSR and a group of main crew and was supposed to fly with them at least twice a year. This proved unworkable due to scheduling constraints so it became once a year which still was too hard so it died a sudden death with everyone agreeing that it was a great idea but just couldn't be made to work given the logistical problems. We also had Fleet Directors (early 90's), who had a small team but only really managed to fly with their CSD's so that didn't manage the main crew or pursers. Most recently 'CSD X' has been kicked around as well.

The bottom line with crew is that they have to be managed on the day by the SCCM so you have to be sure you've promoted the right people.
It is nigh impossible to performance manage based on customer feedback given that the feedback is flawed and affected by general perception of the whole journey experience. (Many customers will complete their form before even seeing their meal much less eating it!) Even CSD annual reviews can only use trends from GPM's and these are greatly influenced by the fact that for the most part, a customer will only oblige with a GPM if they're in a good mood to start with.

So call me cynical but I look forward to the re-invention of the wheel with great anticipation but very little hope that it will herald any great transformation.