Juan Tugoh
 

When Concorde finished some of the Engineers became CC on their (was) current basic pay - if a role where to disappear such as CSD then all CSD's who stayed flying would remain on their current basic salary - however it may be difficult for BA to get away with it as the role itself isn't disappearing as they still require a single in-charge Crew member. The role which would be most under threat in my view is that of Purser.

I was merely stating that there are many ways of deciding who could go if the company decided to use SOSR. I did not mean to suggest that BA intended to do this or had even had vague musings on the subject. The point is more that there are many ways in which SOSR could target certain groups.

However, as many airlines only have Pursers and no rank above that the rank of CSD can easily be got rid of. A SCCM role most certainly would still exist. Pursers act as the SCCM at present on many shorthaul aircraft and act as SCCM "acting up" on LH so it would be far more cost effective to get rid of CSD's. The fact that there are some ex FE's acting as CC does not mean that this would happen again. This is a different situation entirely and you cannot use it as a precedent.

"single in-charge Crew member"
 

A Lurker,
"single in-charge Crew member" that is the captain !!!
We are operating under EU-OPS, have a look at Part A2
(known as JPM in BA).
I guess you mean the SCCM, only one on board anyway.

320push-n-puller
 

And you wonder why people don't bother posting on here - such a 'superior' attitude it must be great being almost 'Godlike' :ugh:.

In case you hadn't noticed this is a Cabin Crew thread and the discussion was about CABIN CREW and a single in-charge Cabin Crew member :rolleyes:

Facts
 

I have only stated facts, ...

and BTW the title of the thread is:

"British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)"

320push-n-puller
 

Stop being so pathetic - the discussion is in the Cabin Crew Forum - and the discussion between posters was about in-charge Cabin Crew - havent you got a Mass to attend it is Sunday, God?

SCCM - in charge crew member
 

Juan Tugoh
Now, I only try to say, CSD is no legal term,
neither is "in charge crew member" (ok, that is the captain)
and there is no such thing as "in charge cabin crew member".

There is one "senior cabin crew member" (SCCM) on board, the experience has
to be at least 6 months.

BA could decide to have only one Purser on board who will be the SCCM.
And as Juan Tugoh said get rid of all CSD's

He doesn't need to attend - surely he's omnipresent....

Harassment
 

That is an example about a discussion with CC.
I can say reasonable things, and the answer...
harassment.

Good luck

320push-n-puller
 

Harassment?????

You really do need to get a grip - you where the one that started all this - would you like my Staff Number so you can report me? 683*5* - joined 1986 - see if you can work it out - then take me in the office for harassment - what is it with Airbus Pilots are you all on a mission to get as many crew possible suspended?

OK, the flight crew are in charge. Now to the cabin. Who is going to direct or manage 99% of things after the door is locked?

Juan Tugoh
 

Actually thinking about it - it is probably irrelevant whatever the in-charge crew member is called - the job is pretty much the same - in fact BA changed the name of Cabin Crew from Steward and Stewardess a few years ago - I think it is more relevant if the actual job itself disappears (like the Concorde FE's) - there will always be a SCCM onboard, irrelevant if they are called CSD, PSR etc Plus of course the CSD now operates as a Main Crew member on L/H

By the way the BA test flight (747 G-CIVC) is just over South Wales - you can track it live on here http://www.radarvirtuel.com/#

Thanks for the link Lurker.

Your reading of it is the same as mine. You can call a job whatever you like all that really matters is the level of pay - hence my suggestion that should BA decide to get rid of a CC rank it would be more likely to be CSD than purser. Not that BA are even considering this as far as I am aware.

I certainly was in no doubt that this hypothetical musing was about CC and I was in no doubt you were talking about the same thing.

Juan Tugoh
 

By the way the flight just disappeared off the screen!

I think it has to go the way of a single grade - hence On Board manager type role - given the events of this last week it all needs to be sorted asap - for all our sakes!

My take on the Purser role going is that there are more of them on L/H if we go down the road of single on board manager - hence get rid of PSR not the CSD

A Lurker
 

You may well be right - but it is all supposition. I don't think we really want to contemplate any more changes at the moment though!

Personally I would be quite happy to just get flying again with all this ash about. It is doing far more damage to the industry than anything else and if the doomsayers are correct and this thing hangs about for a few months, we may all be looking for a new job and this little dispute with the management may rapidly become academic.

One thing I wouldn't want on my CV right now though is that I was a striking crew member at BA. IF this seriously damages aviation and large job losses happen those who did strike may find it hard to get another job in aviation.

A Lurker

Please learn the definition difference between " where " and "were" and use them appropriately in your posts, it makes reading them so much easier ! Thanks

Middy,

What's one h between friends?

Hi Lurker and JuanTugoh

If you add in to this debate the fact that the Pursers have had no job specification since BOAC then their role is the easiest to remove. Arguably they are being reduced by stealth on all fleets so that there are a lot less of them than there was 10 years ago.

For 320push-n-puller(are you a tug driver?), surely it is sufficient for a term to be in 'common usage' for it to be used on a Cabin Crew thread. It is a term borrowed from charter and US carriers to be sure but it is still in common use at BA and therefore your post does seem a little pedantic to say the least. It looks like 'point-scoring' when you throw in these random observations without attempting to add to the debate, almost as if you were inviting harrassment!:confused:

Ottergirl,

I have found in my career that anybody who needs to explain that they are in charge of you, very rarely achieves what goes with that responsibility.

You are so right Litebulbs, that has been my experience too! The most outstanding Captains I have encountered in 25 years have needed neither stripes nor scrambled eggs to command the a/c, just their personality!:ok:

Like I said, when a job becomes redundant...it is the job that goes. The role can become redundant without the person that had been doing that job being made redundant.

This kind of thing happens a lot. When the BA management grades were offered redundancy, some roles were ended, but the people who had been in those roles were able if they wished, (as there was a voluntary redundancy offer) to apply for other roles.

BA can remove pursers or CSD's, as long as they can prove the role no longer exists and make people redundant if there is an overall headcount reduction...but it does not have to follow that the people made redundant would be existing CSD's or pursers.

Juan Tugoh, I think the employment contract in BA still blocks them from doing as you suggest. I think if people are moved into a new role because of commercial/operational requirements, their contract allows them to remain on the same salary or higher? Though I understand BA are trying to remove this for all employees?

Please put SOSR to bed, technically it is possible but very doubtful even the big bad Mr Walsh would attempt to use it.

The big question is what do BASSA and the members do next?

Assuming the deal revealed on Tuesday is still pretty reasonable to 99% of the worlds population, BASSA will still say no because it won't give staff travel back or unsuspend crew or give a blood signed income guarantee for the next 10,000 years.

Will crew still be shouting "strike" after all the chaos of the last few days?

Is the ash cloud to BASSA's advantage or Willies'?

How far will Crew/BASSA push this to ensure they don't take the rumoured 40% paycut that never was and never will be?

Well, do they give up or are they as determined as ever?

I don't think the British public would forgive Unite for calling a strike soon after they struggle to get back home.

Does Unite need the british public to forgive it? The anger of the public would be with Unite's actions...but surely the consequence of that anger will be felt by BA or possibly the current government. Only because the british public can act on its indignation with those two...the public do not buy tickets off unite or vote it into power.

I have no real idea of which way Unite will move after Tuesday. Perhaps it will actually go neither of the ways you suggest. It is possible that BASSA reject a deal (if one has been tabled) and still set no strike date. Continue the dispute (continuing to damage forward bookings and the finances of BA) and delay calling the next dates. I think they would find this a difficult path to persuade the members to accept.

It is hard to guess what 10,000 other people are thinking. There are a lot of calls for an immediate and long strike, both by crew that have already been on strike and those that haven't yet. Maybe the union will be able to convince them to hold off, if there is reason to. I have heard no calls from the members to give up. (Though that could be because they are silent)

Whether the ash ends up advantaging Willy or the crew depends on too many things...I have really no idea what stance Willy is likely to take about the grounding and what strategy he will use to get the airline working again. I haven't heard anything from him since the first day (I don't really watch TV)...has anyone spoken to him or seen any briefing or interview from him?

The union and its members decisions will be influenced by the management's stance as well as whatever the reps and Tony advise. I hear that BA continues to train SBV's to act as cabin crew, which tends to be seen as deliberately antagonistic and an escalation of hostilities.

From BA Intranet is the message that last nights test flight flew successfully, experiencing no problems after a stepped ascent and staying at 40,000 ft for 1 hour.

On board, in addition to the two pilots and Stephen Riley from Flight Ops, one Mr William Walsh Esq. Wonder what the BASSA website posters will make of that?;)

The ash cloud has cost BA money. As a result it can stand less nonsense from BASSA. Some crew will see this as a positive, hoping it will force WW to aced to their demands. Others will see this as a negative; BA are now left with less options and will be forced to use more draconian measures sooner.

UNITE are left with less options. The political dymanic here cannot be underestimated. If one TV debate can give the LibDems a huge boost and force Labour into 3rd place in some polls, can you imagine the the dreadful press that would ensue should UNITE call any long action?

Good PR ??
 

In view of the present difficulties in aviation with volcanic ash, I would have thought it was the perfect time for Unite/Bassa to call off industrial action (in order to assist those poor stranded passengers) with no loss of face, gain good PR and look again at what is on the table. Even perhaps ballot their members??

Whilst I do not fully meet the posting code, may I make a small point of legal fact?
The 'captain' is legally referred to as 'Pilot in Command' and is therefore not 'in charge' of the aircraft but 'in command' thereoff.
The SCCM is 'in charge' of the cabin services and their authority devolves from the PiC.

Just wondered if any of the BASSA supporters currently sitting at home on no allowances for the last five days could now possibly, perhaps, maybe realise the benefits of the Monthly Travel Payment?

Had UNITE agreed this last June, at the lucrative 2008/9 rates, many of us would be sitting in a much better position right now. Just another BASSA failing to add to the list. :rolleyes:

You may well be right Hiflyer, but equally, from a company survival point of view, I'm sure BA are glad they are not losing even more money per day. There may even be a learning point for them about protecting against future massive disruptions.

I heard yesterday speculation that BMI will be concerned about how long they can sustain this stoppage for; they won't be the only ones.

I don't think that the UNITE members, or indeed the rest of us, can afford to be picky about the offer. Losing a weeks allowances for 'ash' disruptions is already leaving people worried about reduced income. Will the BASSA faithful who have not been stuck down-route be able to afford any further action?

Ottergirl regarding BMI where did you hear that from?

Idle chitchat with some 'city-types' at the weekend. Don't take it as gospel just speculation I think.

Oki doki thanks for that. I am guessing that a lot of airlines are probably in the same position anyway.

BA seeks state aid amid £20m a day volcano costs - Times Online

BBC News - British Airways seeks compensation for ash chaos

This is now getting very serious:(

The only advantage is that all large European airlines are in this mess, so a pan European rescue effort will be perceived by all as being slightly better than a bail out of just 1 airline.

BMI are under the umbrella of Lufthansa, but I wonder who long it will be before they cut and run away?

Its a sobering thought, especially when you see some of the comment on "other forums" from very well less informed colleagues:{:{

With all that is happening it would be interesting to see if UNITE/BASSA have the wit to take the high ground and not announce strike dates? I mean what would be the point at the moment.

It may be the first thing we have to smile about in the last five days, but I can see just a touch of irony developing here.;)

CC pay Unite £10-£15 per month subscription fees. Unite pay the Labour Govt £XXmillion. The Labour Gov pay BA £XXmillion volcanic ash bailout ON THE PROVISO THERE ARE NO FURTHER STRIKES.

Oh, poetic justice at last.:)

Interesting perspective on Unite's Political officer who has been at the heart of bullying and harrasment allegations against BA's macho management organisation!

How Charlie Whelan killed New Labour | The Spectator

To get back to the main purpose of this thread.

I've just been reading another thread under Cabin Crew on here, "All Air Lingus cabin crew to be made redundant".

It's only two pages long and dates from 10 March this year. It is, in my opinion, absolutely required reading for anyone posting an opinion on this thread, especially the penultimate post, which is a link to the Irish Times.

If you are a BASSA supporter, please, I beg you read it.

Begs the question, are all these volunteers/temps that have been trained (continue to be trained?) JUST for strike breaking duties?

http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/408...redundant.html

Mutt

There's also this:


RTÉ News: Aer Lingus crew to get minimum redundancy pay

Which contains this snippet:"It is understood that the airline intends to make all senior cabin crew members, known as cabin managers, compulsorily redundant in an attempt to 'de-layer' the cabin crew organisation system."

Whilst I'm sure Irish Labour Law and UK Labour Law are very different could I suggest that in the light of very recent events now might not be the time to be "tickling the tail of a sleeping dragon"........

Any news?
 

Very quiet on the forum. Any news or does anyone know what BASSA are saying/posting?