Here we go, including the usual BASSA b*****ks and posturing about pilots:

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TALKS UPDATE 19TH MARCH
Mar 19th, 2009 by admin

Negotiations on cost-cutting have today resumed.
For the last week it has probably appeared to have all gone away, or at least we could have hoped it had......It categorically has not.

A joint meeting of all the Unions from across the airline that are involved in cost cutting measures was held on Tuesday and information on each of their targeted savings was shared. Last week British Airways had declined to share this information with us. It is apparent that cost saving targets are not equal but vary widely across the airline. For example, the Pilots' budget is £445 million and they face no cuts. Their only input is to not incur further costs over the next two years. Their projected increase is £13 million and this will be their contribution. The vast majority of other areas will achieve savings by quite a severe headcount reduction but not by changes to terms and conditions ("restrictive practices"; as Willie Walsh prefers to call them).

British Airways has now completed their expectations of the cost cuts for cabin crew. To remind you, the headline facts are again recapped below:
BA states that IFCE costs are £567.9 million per year. Most of that cost is salaries (98.9%).

BA wants to cut this by £82 million (14%) over the next two years, commencing April 1st 2009. This equates to approx £6,000 per person directly from earnings and/or costs. They propose this to be achieved by two separate but linked phases. The "new fleet" would still only save £35 million in its first two years, the remaining £47 million would need to come from existing agreements for current crew i.e. you.

Until now we have been unable to publish this "list" to you due to a confidentiality commitment specified to us when it was received. Our confidentiality commitment regarding this has ended and we have received legal clearance to reveal details to you. The following is a list of proposed and possible cost saving measures to reach the specified target, exactly as they were given to us.

What is acceptable or otherwise, is of course the subject of ongoing negotiation but from the list below you will be able to see these are substantial and major issues that will need to be faced. They affect all current crew, no matter which base or agreement you currently operate. It is not just a case of "Oh there's a new fleet coming but it won't affect me"; - it will.

Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet

A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).

BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have already been trained and placed in a holding pool.

It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years

Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.

Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.

Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.

No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable shorthaul payments etc.

A fixed hourly rate.

Pay scales will have no time served increments, any increase in basic pay will be performance related.

Merit promotion.

No Seniority.

Crew will not operate to either Worldwide or Shorthaul agreements but to BA Scheme Limitations document only - For your information this is covered in your Blue Joint Operations procedures manual part 2, pages 78 to 107 inclusive. A link to show scheme details is also available via the BASSA website under agreements.
There will be no MBT etc just scheme days off.

Preference bidding to scheme.

BA project in year one 850 crew to be flying on this new fleet and 2075 by end of year two (remember EF has only 2314 crew and LGW single fleet, 1189.
Long-term this will lead to the total restructuring of cabin crew costs.

Proposed changes to existing crews terms and conditions ("restrictive practices") from this list:
1) Remove double night on LAX, SFO, PHX, MEX.
2) Reduce 777 crew compliment by 1 on long-range 4 class.
3) MBT to be a maximum of 4 local nights irrespective trip.
4) Reduce annual leave for all crew to 34 days from 36.
5) Completely flexible rosters, no fixed trips.
6) One main crew member removed from 777- 3 class.
* Details of item to be confirmed
7) Annual increment freeze for one year for all crew.
8 ) Remove one main crew from worldwide destinations that at present receive the extra crew member as agreed post September 11th 2001. For the summer they are CCU- DAC- DEN -CPT (042) MAA- MEX- MIA- MRU- PEK
9) Remove the early report day allowing report times prior to 0800.
10) Bidding only on EF, ending the 6-3 and 5-2 and job share work patterns.
11) Removal of 767 CSD on EF.
12) All Crew grades to be planned/rostered to work up or down with no extra payment or restriction.
13) Remove one main crew member from 777 long-range top up.
* Details of Item To be confirmed
14) Extension on Eurofleet working day from 12.30 hours to 15.00.
15) Allow earlier report/start and later debrief/finish times.
16) Replace all 24hr stand-by with 12 hour.
17) One purser to be removed from all 747 and 777.
18 ) Remove EF Club top-up crewing level agreement.
19) No meal allowances to be triggered whilst in flight.
20) Reduction of Box-One payments by 50%
21) Back-To-Back payments to be reduced by 50%.
22) All destination payments to be permanently removed. For summer these will be paid on MIA- LAD -DEN -DAR -SEA YVR- EBB- IAH- DFW -YYC
23) Pay actual ETP rather than planned.
24) Remove STR payments and introduce fixed links also with no payment - EF.
25) Replace QRS with airport standby.
26) Reduce report and debrief times i.e., shorten duty day timings.
27) Removal of telephone allowance.
28 ) Change definition of EF night duty.
29) Exchange 2 pursers from all 767, 747, 777 to junior crew positions (switching roles).
30) No CSD on 757 EF.
31) Switch one purser at LGW for main crew member.
These are potentially in addition to a two-year pay freeze.

Now we have been able to share this list, you will see first-hand the scale of the challenge we face, there are no easy options available. This will require ongoing and extensive consultation between us, as your representatives and you, as our members. This is something you need to become involved in, right now and take an active interest, it will affect every single one of us, it's not even a question of supporting your union, it's a question of being involved in some really hard and far reaching decisions that are not going to go away.

BASSA and Amicus sections of UNITE will continue to work closely together to do our best to protect your future, we will not kid you that this is going to be an easy task but please be assured that we will be doing our very best for you.We have now told BA that we will not meet next week as we wanted to start the consultation process with you over the next several days. Talks will however reconvene on the 30th and then obviously we have our branch meeting at Kempton Park on the 6th April when a full and frank debate will no doubt be forthcoming.

So once again the pilots accuse the Cabin Crew of "bringing the company down" Sheesh.

We joined BA because they offered those terms and conditions and we get a FAIR wage for the work we do (just like the pilots do).

If BA now think we are too expensive then they shouldn't have offered those terms to begin with.

It is not the cabin crews fault what they earn, it's what BA offered and we accepted. It's called a contract.

To smash-and-grab our terms permanently when the downturn is purely temporary is opportunism of the first order.

Most crew would agree to temporary measures but would need assurance that when the economy recovered and BA starting making the profits it has in the past (despite our hideously expensive and restrictive terms and conditions :hmm:) we would get the money back.

Thing aren't just tough for poor old BA! We are not faceless cabin crew. We are real people living lives with families and mouths to feed. We don't need to be told how tough thing are, our cost of living has increased along with BAs. Everything costs more from eggs to bread to rent to mortgages. Why should we take home less pay when the cost of living keeps going up?

And shame on our "colleagues" who take delight in our struggle at the moment. It wont be long before you need our support maybe? Its a two-way street and we should all be together.

Remember, after you have landed the plane in an emergency its the other half of the onboard team that may have to look after you and make sure you get off safe.

We should be one team, shame on you.

And contracts are always being revisited and rewritten. That's life and what is happening here. We would all like the changes to be temporary but sadly I doubt that will be an option in these times. The revenue the company earns is in sharp decline and the costs need to be aligned with the market. BA have looked at all areas and decided what is required and achievable by each area, hence different targets this time around - it is about survival of the fittest and still being in the game in 2011.

Where is the 'shame on you' coming from? I don't think anyone 'delights' (your words not mine) in seeing terms and conditions deteriorate. Unfortunately, as TopBunk has already alluded to times change and contracts need to be revisited.

In the past BA has put CC contracts in the 'too difficult' draw. Now, when faced with an economic draw down the likes of which we have never seen before, coupled with the uncertainty of how long it will last, the 'too difficult' draw has been opened and emptied. Flight crew took this pain the last time the company hit dire straits. There is no them and us, it is just that BASSA has managed to hold on to its T's & C's a bit longer, well done. The flight crew took rationalisation to prevent junior pilots being made redundant. The levelling of pay cost many of the middle seniority pilots alot of money but as there was unity to protect our colleagues some difficult and costly decision were made. Hence, at this point we have very little left to give as the company has us on a rationalised pay scheme. Now they are turning their attention to the cabin crew contracts and, if the company is to be believed, the pain will be coming your way. There is NO 'them and us' there is no 'delight' in seeing this come but always remember before you slag off the flight crew, WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS ALREADY!

If industrial action occurs then the investment potential of dinosaur BA (due to the crippling unionised antagonism) will plummet. If the share price dips below about £1 (my speculation) then the company will be rife for the asset strippers. BA as a 'brand' is still a powerful market force and one that many asset stripping companies (Blackstone group?) would still love to get their hands on. IF that happens then your contracts, our contracts, any contract is worth nothing, nichts, nada. No TUPE as the company was insolvent. Either take what they give you or the dole queue.

We would all love to get our original T's & C's back, but lets be pragmatic, it isn't going to happen. Hence the best way through is to find common ground, give and take and engage without the 'lets bring the company down with our silo mentality' or 'but the pilots aren't giving as much why should we?'

Grow a backbone and engage as adults, don't let BASSA take you down the same route as Arthur Scargill which led to the death of mining in the UK.

Speedmarque I don't know what planet you are living on.......

Rents are down 6% where I live and falling. Mortgages are also falling, a typical 100k mortgage has reduced by £300, unless of course you tied into a fixed rate;) RPI is falling and so is inflation.

I don't think for one moment that BA want everything on their "wish list" as presented by BASSA, rather each "wish" comes with a cost saving tag.

You can also assume that with such a wish list, the company have thought about the cost of industrial action v some form of compromise, but I have a strong feeling they will get some of what they want.

Equally I have just spent the afternoon chatting with an HR director for a large travel conglomerate, she could see no legal basis for strike action over the setting up another new fleet, and she pointed to the old AML contract at LGW, there are of course some proviso were BA to try and "force" some people to join the new fleet, but like everything the high court may disagree:rolleyes:

So, what has been given up so far by flight ops?

Block payments, lunch payments, destination payments, CAT turnarounds, lateness credits etc. All were lumped together to form a slightly increased basic. (Not the basic that the pension is based upon, that stays the same as prior to the levelling agreement). Variable pay was reduced subsequently to make it a smaller proportion of the monthly wage thus enabling better financial planning over periods of lean flying. Sector pay and a flat hourly 'subsistence' rate, leading to a more manageable monthly pay, less loss of allowances and no 'senior' trips to high paying destinations. Most of those trips are now bid for on the basis of good golfing. Leading to a much more pleasant and varied flying environment.

Seem familiar?

all am gonna say is :D:D:D 2 speedmarque

Speedmarque,

An interesting comment from one of your colleagues on a related thread on this CC forum:

" BA is like semi retirement and even if any of the 32 proposals are accepted BA will still remain the best to work for. "

Care to comment?

BD That's one individuals opinion. He doesn't speak for me or the other thirteen thousand other BA cabin crew.

Instead of comparing c/c pay and working practices with those of the pilots would it not be more appropriate to compare BA c/c pay structures and working condition with those of c/c in other airlines operating similar routes? There are plenty of airlines out there for the comparisons to be made.

It would be intersting for you if you find c/c working condition and pay scales in other airlines that are far better than your own.

I wish you well.

Well I see my posts have been deleted, all the while offensive comments remain like "what planet do you live on etc...." Guess it's all about who you know on here as to what gets deleted or not :ugh:

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else.

There have been several reports about pilots intimidating crew and trying to bully them into accepting anything the company wants. People have been reporting these pilots on the basis of bullying and poor CRM skills.

Safe flying

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else



:D:D:D:D:D

I'm not really sure why people on here are getting so wound up by this thread ? Especially when some of these people don't even work for BA and those who do are not all cabin crew, it really is none of your business !!!

and for those of you who think it is because they don't want to see the airline go down etc ,,,,,,,,,,,,, being vocal on this forum isn't going to change how the majority of the BA cabin crew feel at the moment and the course of events that will unfold over the next few weeks or months. In fact for those that read this forum makes their resolve all the more firm.

CC terms and conditions, pilots T&Cs, Engineer's T&Cs etc, are all the interest of anyone who is a share holder of the company. CC payment and reward is not the sole territory of CC - it is naive to suggest so.

To take money from people is tough - as has been mentioned we all have bills to pay. But, savings still need to made. So, the question that needs addressing is how to move forward. Perhaps some of the suggestions with regard to flexibility of work practices etc may be the way ahead. After all, given that most of the crew tell me that they are reaching the 900 hour limit so they cannot be made to work any harder.

If there is a way to work smarter that should be encouraged. Given what is happening everywhere else in the economy surely retaining a job must be the prime objective of all who work for BA. The main bugbear of all this seems more to do with the company wanting permanent cuts and savings to cover a temporary problem.

I have a great amount of sympathy for all the CC at BA, times are really tough but those who will not change and would rather see the company go under are living in clown cuckoo land. We all labour under a very benign system at BA, I would rather see harsher T&C's to keep my job there than end up losing my house to, for example keep a CSD on SH.

"In fact for those that read this forum makes their resolve all the more firm."
:D:D:D

Well said, keep on bleating people, it just makes us stronger in our resolve to keep what's fair. We will lose some of our terms and that's fine but we will not be bullied by others.

The fact that our terms and conditions wind others in the company up just makes me smile even broader. ;)

LHR WW and LGW Fleet both work to 900 hours per year so any costs savings made by making crew work harder will be offset by having them grounded for 2/3 months of the year because they have reached to 900 hours before the rolling 12 months is up.
However Eurofleet only seem to manage on average 500 hours a year, so looking logically at cost savings the only option seems to be to make eurofleet crew work closer to the 900 hours. Another 400 hundred hours per year from crewmembers would generate significant cost savings.

Although cost savings could be made from other fleets ie: removing crew members off longhaul aircraft this effects the level of service given onboard and with flights crewed to the bare minimum anyway this would have a significant negative effect on the BA business plan to be a 'Global Premium Longhaul Airline'.
Having a 'Cabin Service Director' on a single aisle aircraft is just to operate shorthual services and having above minimum crew on the A320 series aircraft can no longer be justified.

Its certainly 1 option, BA have identified about 30 others you seem to have missed!

Perhaps speedmarque the posts were removed because they fell under the "one liner wind ups" as described by one of the moderators. I and others did try and apply some rational explanations at the time, but they too got removed.

I am sure that those pilots who have been reported are quaking in their boots for arguing IFCE policy, and for adopting I wish I had a UK£ for every time I heard Cabin Crew level that accusation, I would be a very rich man.

If you don't like the rational arguments put forwards here on Pprunne, you can always go back onto the BASSA forum for a bit of "head in the sand blue sky thinking" I'm just glad its the same old same old people posting the same old rhetoric time and time again............ and as for throwing good wine down the sink then boasting about it:ugh::ugh::rolleyes:

This goes back to BASSA's "name and shame" policy which they don't seem to consider to be at odds with the UK Data Protection Act.

I'm curious. Who are those pilots being reported to? I ask because I guarantee the Flight Ops managers won't give a monkeys. IFCE have no remit regarding pilots and BASSA is cabin crew union.:confused::confused::confused:

If cabin crew level that accusation at you on what seems to be on a regular basis going by your comment perhaps there is an element of truth in it?

You'd be surprised how often the 'lack of CRM' complaint is bandied about. 99.9% of cabin crew who make the complaint don't actually understand what CRM is about, believing instead that it's something to do with the pilots not being allowed to disagree with them.

If you are an employee and a fellow employee tried to enforce an opinion that had no relevance to the job that you were doing, after you have asked them to stop, then they would be bullying you. That is a gross misconduct matter, that if proved may lead to dismissal.

You may seek advice on this issue from your union, but the grievance should be lodged with the appropriate channels of your management structure. If your management structure ignore your grievance, then there are legal avenues that you may pursue.

No colleague has the right to tell you what to eat, or which religion to follow. They also have no right to lecture you about your terms and conditions and why you should change them, if you are feeling in any way, under pressure to defend yourself.

Ozzie perhaps you should read my post again..............

You saidMy post readTo date I don't think I have every known it leveled at me:ok: sorry to disappoint you:(

Rather I haveheard the phrase banded around in the galley and at the bar when Cabin Crew have heard something they don't like:rolleyes::rolleyes:

It seems the stock response, but by in large is meaningless and misunderstood.

Oh and the last time I heard it, the phrase was leveled at a CSD:eek:

I don't think for any moment that any of my peers have "bullied" anyone, or enforced an opinion an anyone over ICFE cost savings plan as described by Lightbulb (glad you enjoyed the bullying video).

If perhaps you wish to argue the point further, then perhaps all the GM and SM grades in ICFE, together with anyone that hosts an "in touch" session are equally guilty of British Airways Bullying policy.

The dreaded 'silo' mentality makes its unwelcome return.

Cabin Crew terms and conditions become everyone's domain when the terms 'I would rather bring BA down with Willie and his gang before accepting a drop in my T's & C's' gets bandied about. That makes it of concern to every employee.

BA does not run to pander to CC whims, the pilots, loaders, despatchers, checkin staff, IT staff, customer service agents etc. etc. all have a vested interest in the result of the BASSA spat.

As someone has already pointed out, there have been never ending pilot verses cabin crew debates here, they are old and we are trawling through old news.

Can anyone post a direct comparison of CC terms from another airline to compare with BA? At least then we have a baseline to work from and can discuss this from a common starting point. Remember, when Virgin crew threatened to strike over pay, Sir Dickie told them if the wanted more money then resign and go to BA.

Mystical pilot-only-understood CRM
 

Me and most of my co-crew are more than aware of what CRM actually is and how it can avoid accidents.

I am aware that the KLM/Pan Am crash in Tenerife was caused by a biligerent Captain and that his crew were relectant to challenge his poor decisions.

BM crash at Kegworth was avoidable if only there was better communication between all the crew.

The AC DC-9 fire that started in a toilet and killed many onboard could have been avoided with proper communication.

The list goes on..................

SOME PILOTS are challenging us on crew buses and in galleys about our situation at the moment. I have experienced it first hand and I am not alone.

Now imagine the atmosphere between the crew that these pilots are creating every day on BA aircraft and tell me it does not constitute a safety threat?

speedmarque

I don't want to take this thread on a tangent so I will just copy and paste what I wrote on another thread with reference to CRM. Sorry to say that most of your co-workers ARE aware of what it means, and a discussion on a bus of factors involving ALL of our employment doesn't really amount to a CRM problem.

CRM aside, we are all still entitled to our opinions, if you feel so deeply that is should not be discussed on a bus, or that the debate is getting to such a heated point that you feel it could impact upon your ability to do your job then, under CRM, it is YOUR responsibility to say so. CRM covers all of us, don't just blame the flight crew for discussing something you don't like.

Da Dog,

It will be part of a managers job to be cost aware. Talking to crew about the need to control that cost should be expected.

It is not a pilots job to do that on contractual issues. If a crew member wishes to seek your advice on contractual issues then fine. If you want to give opinion on the same issues, then fine too. If you are not asked, then don't offer.

Oh Wobble really :=

I'm not against DISCUSSING anything, it's the heated, bullying, Im-right-you-are-just-cabin-crew-so-dont-understand-the bigger-picture arrogance and attitude of SOME of our colleagues that we are objecting to and reporting.

It's not safe behaviour.

Speedmarque,

That is not anything to do with CRM at all. A discussion about pending changes which, oddly enough, everyone is interested in, especially as we have our own changes pending, has nothing at all to do with CRM and everything to do with perception. If you want to argue then accept that people may hold as deep feeling for the subject in the other direction as you do in yours. Discussions (arguments) are never one sided.

IF you feel that it is too 'in your face' then that is a personal element to the discussion that you need to address and not to umbrella under CRM. It constantly amazes me that personal issues are bandied about as CRM when all it really is is a personality clash between two people. In the unfortunate event of an emergency I am sure that you're training would enable you to complete any tasks required of you without letting a personality issue come to the fore. If not then I feel that you need to address that issue before you fly.

Bullying is a totally different subject and one that should NOT be placed under the same heading as CRM as they are totally different things.

Enough thread creep, can we please get back to discussing what resolutions are available to BAs' wish list instead of inane 'but I don't like the way they talked to me' discussions.

As Eurofleet CC I have, over the past few days, had several conversations with Flight Crew on this subject. I really am not sure where others are getting all this "bullying" thing from. The conversations I've had have been generally respectful, informative, supportive and constructive. If anything, these conversations have shown a wider awareness and understanding of the situation faced not only by the company, but by all of us employed by it than I find to be the case when conversing with my fellow Cabin Crew, be that face-to-face, or via other online forums. It would also seem that the figures attributed to Flight Crew by BASSA, are somewhat erroneous.

For those of you who wish to divert your energies into finger-pointing and harping back to fines/T5/Openskies etc I'd suggest that you really do need to focus more on the reality of here and now, and try to participate in a somewhat more constructive manner.

I'm seeing a lot of calls for "strike" or "work to rule" on other forums, but very little useful, informed or constructive discussion. I did venture a somewhat broader opinion and the result was far more harrowing than anything I've ever witnessed in conversations onboard the aircraft, on a bus, or in a bar.

Speedmarque has hit the nail on the head, it is the attitude of some of our colleagues - on both sides of the door that are a problem. The "I'd rather see this company fail than give an inch on T&Cs" brigade are dinosaurs and are just as bad as any pilots being forceful in their views. Both attitudes need to be moderated - extemists on both side of the debate do not help matters.

Ladies and Gentlemen...............
 

..........I give you exactly the dangerous attitude I have been talking about


inane 'but I don't like the way they talked to me' discussions.

:D:D:D:D:D:

Personality clashes (or however else you choose to trivialise safety issues) HAVE CAUSED ACCIDENTS. The fact that you casualise these worries me and furthers my point.

In my experience the people who complain of a "Im-right-you-are-just-cabin-crew-so-dont-understand-the bigger-picture arrogance" are usually the ones who espouse the "BASSA are 100% right and I'll back them whatever" atttitude and have just had their arguments (or lack of) shot down in flames. The "bullying" threat is BASSAs attempt to stifle debate out on the line where they can't control speech like they do on their own forum. Can't have the troops thinking for themselves now, can we?

Speedmarque - you're still not getting the CRM thing are you?

Off on a trip now
 

Thanks to all contributors, I have enjoyed the debate/sparring.

For the record I am not a BASSA rep or even really a fan of how the union is run. But I am a member and believe they do an ok job most of the time. I dont agree to their "tabloid" style sometimes and do not blindly follow all they say.

To those carrying on the discussion, remember everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if it disagrees with yours. Superiority and refusing to listen to others opinions says more about you than the people you are trying to ridicule.

Cheers

Speedmarque,

nothing could be further from the truth. My final comment was in respect to this thread 'tangentalising' from the main discussion onto one of 'ohh I don't like the way they talked to me'.

I am well aware that the Staines crash was caused, partly, by a heated discussion about pensions between the pilots. This scenario led to the inception of a course which was designed to deal with 'stressful encounters' prior to flight.

As the course was developed it enrolled more and more subjects until it became a generic 'dealing with a flight from briefing to clear' course. As the HR department got hold od it they needed an an acronym for it and called it CRM Course.

My entire point is that CRM is just a small part of the entire 'CRM' course and contains a bewildering array of information pertaining to the safe conduct of the flight (Aircraft Captains primary responsibility). Hence, whilst it is not considered good to have heated debates before the flight between crew members, it comes under the CRM course heading but is NOT CRM, purely one of the tools given to the aircraft commander who, if it was them, should have known better or, if not, should, possibly have intervened and suggested that the discussion take place at a more suitable time.

Throwing the 'BASSA will report you' card in completely kills off your ability to explain exactly why these proposals are unacceptable. That would, surely, be shooting yourself in the foot. A bit like misreading my previous post and quoting in red. :ugh:

Litebulbs you could not have summed it up better.

Strangely speedmarque I have over the last 3 weeks or so never initiated a conversation on Cabin Crews current difficulties, the conversation has always been forced upon me, and the other flight crew I am with, and yes its been on the bus, and on the flight deck, and in the galley and in the bar. If someone asks my opinion I'll give it.;) But it won't be the sympathy you might expect.

In fact 1 purser was so enraged, I would question their ability to go flying!
It cuts both ways.

Perhaps your just letting the BASSA stereotype of Flight Crew cloud your judgment on what someone says and what they mean by it:oh:

After all BASSA wouldn't want to stifle open debate through fear and intimidation........ would they??



Interesting observation by TorC about the other forum, I have to laugh but if anyone dare argue against the "norm" or offer a rational point of view backed up by reasonable argument, they are immediately verbally stomped all over..... the best put down so far "when did you marry flight deck!!"

I beg to differ - it is the shareholders' cash, and how the pie is cut determines whether the remainder of the workforce actually has a job to do next year.

So we return to the message. Cabin crew will be soley responsible for the collapse of BA and the unemployment of all staff.

Round and round in circles.

Others, and not necessarily cabin crew, believe that Walsh will be repsonsible for the demise of BA. His unreasonable man gung-ho attitude, his belief in Openskies the airline, and his thrust that a permanent long term solution will be forced onto IfCE whilst every other departments will have short term solutions in place and subsequent reviews.

Alot of cabin crew I converse with are of the opinion that an immediate and temporary solution needs to found now. An agreement with a guaranteed reassessment and a return to normality at an agreed financial trigger. What is being proposed is very much viewed as an opportunistic smash and grab on permanent t&cs. I will again point out that these new terms were within the leaked 'colombus' document. A project which pre-dated the current recession. A project commenced during a time of record profits. How wonderful it must be for the leadership team that the economy has collapsed.

If BA is in a real crisis, rather than a protectionist mode, why oh why does the company still persevere with Openskies. Shelf the concept for now! Recently our Manager of Americas, stated, in defence of Openskies, it annoys Air France. How in turbulent times can a company motivate its workforce with mixed messages. We'll waste money to annoy the French, but cost cuts have to be permenantly made to our own crew.