I do remember reading an NTSB report a few years ago about cabin crew announcements and particularly the safety demonstration. I cannot locate the document at the moment but I will be sure to post a link when I do. The report suggested that when the demo is done in a light-hearted and/or slightly comical way, pax are more likely to a) pay attention and b) remember the content.

I would agree that perhaps DJ is a little out-of-the-ordinary in this regard and that sometimes the jokes may not be to everyone's taste and even that at 0800 on a Monday morning they may be a little irritating. Having said that, I was on a BNE-CNS recently and the CS delivered not only the demo but every PA with jokes in it (btw, with a perfect deadpan that made it even funnier) and received a round of applause from the cabin upon her last PA as we were arriving in CNS. If one thing can be said, it does show that the pax were listening for once.

Well, My question is: can VB cabin crew pose in party photos in their VB uniform?

There is of course the story about a flight on an unnamed airline a few years ago,on final approach the captain came on the PA and announced:
"Cabin Crew Please Arm Doors And Cross Dress!" Perhaps DJ could try that one!(No,not the cross dressing:eek: )

Hi guys,

I just want to clarify a few things that have been discussed on this thread... I work for Virgin Blue and no you do not have to pay for your ASIC or your uniform. You are supplied with a sufficient amount of the uniform when you begin and any more things you wish to add you can pay for, however after 12 months you are re issued with some more clothing. The only you had to pay for is the medical which I believe if you really want the job you will pay for- it's really not that big a deal.

I love working as cabin crew and the boarding music is not dodgy - it's actually songs that are in the top 20 at the moment. Unfortunately we can't cater for everyone's music taste but it's certainly not offensive music.

The PA's you are talking about are quite amusing at times but the times these joke type things are put in are on flights that suit. For instance - the cs or crew wouldn't be making jokes on a early morning business flight from MEL to SYD yet may be more appropraite on a Melbourne to Gold Coast etc flight.

Anyway... I am proud to be a Virgin Blue employee :)

Keeponsmiling - the paying for uniform/ASIC was in relation to Weststaff GROUND STAFF for DJ, I was told about this by Westsaff the other day.

vb
 

skycrewhosties,

Why can't you tell us or mention the airline you fly for?

I know for a fact that yes Ground staff employed by Westaff do have to pay for uniform and ASIC and then when you leave or put off for no reason, you hand your uniform back in and dont get any money reimbursed. A friend of mine paid close to $400, was told to hand everything back in, which I uppose goes without saying the reason why, but didn't receive anything back. It was, I guess liking hiring the uniform, and getting no bond back.

I'm a very frequent DJ traveller, have been over the past few years and can give my opinion.

The jokes wear very thin very quick - in standard PAs or in the safety demo. Travelling on QF/JQ is a pleasure in this respect - just professional conduct with no rubbish. I concede, however, that this is not the image that DJ wants - so I put up with it. I've heard a lot of complaints about it but there's always a group of pax who seem to enjoy the jokes. The music's been covered - but if I had my way that'd disappear too.

By far my biggest annoyance with DJ cabin crew is their non-adherence to CAO 20.16.3, paras 3.1 and 4.1 - namely the requirement for all passengers and all crew members to be seated with seatbelts/harnesses worn during turbulence. Only when turbulence becomes close to severe do the cabin crew even consider sitting down - and a few times I've had cups of boiling water carried past my face during turbulence. The crew retire to the rear galley to talk amongst themselves at this time while the passengers are strapped down, as required by law. Trolley carts are left unsecured in the aisle. I can only imagine this is a training issue as EVERY crew does this.

A workmate has written to the company about this - next step is CASA/ATSB. Only a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured.

Enough negatives - some positives - overall the company has a very good attitude and by and large I really enjoy flying with them. Flight deck security and awareness was pathetic a couple of years ago - this has improved a thousand times over.

Hi everyone - VBCC here. To Zapp I have to say I totally agree with you - if you think as a pax the seatbelt issue is confusing and unsafe - try being a cc member. Our safety comes down to whether the flight deck think it warrants crew being seated and our personal judegement. I personally think is sends the wrong message that crew are up and about when the pax are not allowed to be. I hope that your attention to this matter will make a change as reports from crew fall on deaf ears.

As to the jokes - again I agree. There are a select number of crew who can deliver creative and funny jokes - the rest (including me) are hopeless. Also too many crew don't know when it is appropriate and when is it not. Trust me - the crew in the back are often rolling their eyes at these jokes as much as the pax are. My pet hate is when the CS makes a joke at my expense (ie - introducing me with a 'side-story'). Unfortuneatley we have a behavioural compentancy called Virgin Flair - which we are rated on every trip. The vast majority of us think this mean being helpful, kind, personable. However, old school virgin blue is all about "fun in the cabin" and there are those that persist. We actually have a book of jokes, stories, and games to use!! Again only customer feedback can change this.

The good news is that as the Foxtel TV is rolled out across the fleet - we are no longer allowed to make non-authorised PAs as it cuts out the TV which you have paid for. Also as VB reduces the crew compliment - it reduces the ability of 'fun in the cabin' as we will be flat chat trying to get our required duties/service done. The foxtel also kills the music as a/c with the live TV are not equiped with music systems - its so quiet its a bit scary!


Adam xoxo

Is there anything wrong with "old school"....? U can still be "old school" and have fun at the same time!!

Adam Ant, we should fly together. No funny jokes allowed, wink wink.

Keep on smiling, I wish it was only on Cooly and Cairns flights! I guess I am traumatised from a CS who on a business flight made about 5 silly remarks during the final PA, not to mention the demo etc.

Anyway, I too, am proud to be DJ employee, and like I said from the beginning, it is really the only gripe I have.

Hmmm, what about those rumoured 5 sector days?? Just joking. All in all I think that DJ is a great airline, and hope they can really conquer the business market, maybe even add a business class to the cabin....

No News is good News right...... OK we get the joke:)

skycrewhosties

The term "old school" needs to be read in the context of the sentence: "old school virgin blue is all about...". I think adam_ant was talking specifically about crew who are still stuck in Virgin Blue's "old school" way of doing things (eg 'airobics', toilet paper races, over the top announcements) rather than Virgin Blue's "new school" approach (business like, etc.).

adam_ant

I agree about the extra information concerning crew that gets divulged during announcements. Does anyone care that Crew X recently bought some quirky item from e-bay? Or that Crew Member Y's birthday was three weeks ago this Tuesday?



I can see the logic behind the argument that making announcements 'light and fun' may encourage people to pay attention. But isn't there a point at which this becomes counter-productive? Surely after being bombarded with irrelevant pa's people just shut-off to all pa's.

adam_ant - Thanks for your reply, I'm glad to hear that some of the crew have also noticed the turbulence issue.

Apart from the fact I believe it's against the law - I see strapping pax down but not crew as a complete contradiction - pax are not strapped down for the crew's convenience but for safety in the cabin. Unless DJ crew are wearing magnetic boots that I haven't been informed about, they are just as likely to fly around the cabin as me. And I don't recall the CAO's saying anything about PICs choosing who's secured during turbulence.

I also draw attention to the SOPs of QF and JQ - everybody or nobody is strapped down. There's never a situation where crew are moving around but not pax. Of course, DJ are entitled to strap pax down at FL200 on descent - this is not a safety or turbulence issue, just a company SOP to allow the crew to prepare for landing. No worries there.

Anyway I've made my point, and I hope I get some response from the company on this issue.

I wont take chances, if it's good enough for the pax to be strapped in thats a good indication to me that I should be strapped in too. Airlines such as Qantas, United and others have had their fare share of crew hitting the ceiling, broken bones etc. We dont hear so much of this now as many airlines have adopted the rule that when the seat belt sign comes on, you strap your self in. I'm interested to learn the policy that you have at DJ, if you have a good one I would like to know as it could save lives. We have 2 announcements to the cabin, one is "All passengers and crew return to your seats and fasten seatbelts" . This alerts the crew that expected turbulance is coming, gives us enough time to secure carts, coffee pots etc. The other is "All passengers and crew return to your seats and fasten seatbelts Immediately" this means we are experiencing clear air turbulance and for our own safety we are to secure carts where they are, put all hot beverages on the floor and sit in the nearest seat or on the floor if required. I have found that passengers respond better to commands if the crew themselves are adhering to the rules aswell, we are after all safety proffessionals in our field and we MUST set the example. I know we are a service industry but safety is priority.

Magnetic boots - FUNNY. As this is an issue I have grappled with since day one at VB, I like to joke that we recieve a day of training from Spiderman on how to cling to floors and walls. Unfortunately I ahve ended up on the floor twice - once with negative results.

Again I agree if pax are seated, we should be seated. I like the idea of different PAs. I always think its funny that someone will need to use the toilet when the SB sign is on - and we are meant ;) to get them seated, but there we are as crew, standing up with 10ton carts out and hot liquids a-flowin'. If I were a pax I think my idea would be 'yea right, whatever - outta my way I gotta wee'.:ooh: Most CC use a bit of common sense in this regard, but there are few who are unable to think outside whats written (or not in this case) and those are the ones that will get hurt.

I don't think VB is being intentionally negligent, its just with the way the company outgrew itself so quickly, many of these issues have gone unchanged (I could give you list!). Sometimes I wonder if it takes a major injury before a change is made.

And just on a personal/political note - I have zero faith in CASA to give a crap about this or most other issues. FYI there are a few ex-VB/QF employees at CASA, one of which (ex-VB) is rather high up in the ranks. Need I say more.

'Why sit the crew down when they can still walk through the cabin serving and selling and snacks?' I suppose is managements point of view. Keep the pax happy continuing with a service, even if they have to remain seated. What do you think?

I dont think the above statement is accurate at all, safety is paramount. Apart of getting the pax seated is to restrict the danger of a congested cabin during turbulence, people up and about can injure those seated, whereas if the majority are seated that risk can be reduced. In NZ, we are often given a couple of minutes to secure the cabin before we are required to sit, baring in mind we operate in often poor windy weather and on short sectors.

Skycrewhosties... hardly any of your posts make sense nor do you use proper english??!!

Although im not a fan of DJ, I have always commended them for their innovation and for seeming to adapt as they need to. Its a jungle out there and you need to do what you can to survive. :D

Hi sebby,

The issue raised, was why dont DJ crew have to sit down when the seatbelt sign is on?

I was just giving a suggestion as to management MAY not want to sit crew down when the seatbelt sign is on. I agree safety is paramount.

Maybe they think that crew are more experienced in dealing with turbulence? Who knows why they make certain decisions, but I think like management most companies, the dollar usually comes first.

Yes you are right with the $ point of view, I know within the QF group there are times when apparently CAA or CASA has given certification to certain crew on the aircraft to be able to stand, eg - safety demo, arming and disarming of doors (these tasks are performed when the seat belt sign is illuminated).

Back in the days of Ansett NZ (not sure if this applied in aus), (and i know this because crew have told me here in nz but i used ot also fly in aus), that seat belt sign at certain times only applied to the passengers and if crew were required to be seated then the captain would inform them to be seated separately of crew. I believe that perhaps this method still applies to a lot of airlines, including DJ. The idea behind it being applied at Ansett NZ was the short sectors and limited service time. So perhaps from this point of view, yes you are correct. I also believe one crew member may stand up to relay jackets back to pax seated in J/C, during taxi in. This is a company policy within Jetconnect, but im not sure how it would stand up against CASA or CAA.

Age Of New Recruits At Vb
 

Curious to know after the court case a few years ago if Virgin have started to employ older crew..????

flytheplanemay - I think you may be missing my main point - that is, it's against the law. It is not merely a bad idea - it is not permitted, under the Civil Aviation Orders, to be moving in the cabin when the presence of turbulence has been defined.

CAO 20.16.3 para 3.1:

"Each crew member and each passenger shall occupy a seat of an
approved type:
(a) during take-off and landing; and
(b) during an instrument approach; and
(c) when the aircraft is flying at a height less than 1000 feet above
the terrain; and
(d) in turbulent conditions:
except:
(i) infants, children and stretcher cases carried in accordance with
subsections 13 and 14 respectively; and
(ii) package dispatchers carried in accordance with section 29.5; and
(iii) parachutists carried in accordance with subsection 16."

Paragraph 4.1:

"Except as provided in subsections 14 and 16 safety harnesses, or
seat belts where safety harnesses are not fitted, shall be worn by all
persons at the times listed in paragraph 3.1. Seat belts and safety
harnesses shall be adjusted to fit the wearer without slack."

Subsections 14 and 16 referred to above relate to stretcher cases and parachutists - not applicable.

The only grey area would be mild turbulence - but DJ's policy is to remain unsecured until it's hard to stand up. DJ management's view on the matter is quite frankly irrelevant - company SOPs cannot override the CAOs. The flight attendants do not have a legal option to remain standing in the cabin - which is why the airline has liability issues when something serious happens.

In short, being seated/secured is good safety practice, but more importantly, the ONLY practice allowed under the Civil Aviation Orders.

We would place Virgin Blue slightly above other airlines as they are innovative, and by the looks of the two cabin crew on U tube which look professional makes this airline fun to work for.

We also heard that the recruitment process is different and lot more relaxed than other airliners. :)

Turbulence is rated into three levels
Slight - continue service with caution
Moderate - service may need to be discontinued or modified
Severe - sit at station or in nearest spare seat

I realise that the company wants to get the most out of there crew but also putting the carts away everytime the seatbelt sign is switched on is also impractical. We are told when we are expecting bumps and we adjust the service accordingly.
The Cabin Supervisor or any member of crew can decide when they have had enough of the bumps and halt the service.
I have not felt the need yet to do this yet. Which could be down to luck or the sheer fact that our service doesnt start till the bumps stop or that the service is over well before the bumps begin.
I generally find that most of the turbulence is closer to the ground. During cruise on most occassions the flying is smooth.

Any more info on this. The pilots vote finishes today I think and early indications were against there EBA.
Be interesting to see if this affects ours in any way or whether the company will continue with it regardless.

Rumours I have heard-
allowance for food in, snacks in, meals out
3% payrise for CC, more substantial for CS
5 day trips
5 sector days under CAP 371 rules
130 hours over 4 weeks
No available pay just overtime once you work over 130 hours
Part time paid pro rata, you get to nominate how much less you want to work
New rostering system to be rolled out

Still waiting for a hard copy to sink my teeth into and discuss with my fellow PPPruners.

Pilot EBA voted down, 87% No vote vs 13% Yes vote

I too have heard the "no crew meal" concept, and am hoping that its not true!!! I already have more than enough to carry without having to bring my own food too :ugh:

Good point sinala, do you know what the snacks would be?

If you were receiving a snack (hopefully something healthy), would this tide you over until you could use your meal allownce to buy something?

I guess it all depends on the ammount of allowance you get, I know we are crying out for an allowance as our crew meals are so unhealthy. We do receive fruit and cheese and crackers to snack on aswell as instant soup, I find I generally have this until its I get home or to hotels ec, but feel ripped off that my DTA goes on eating at home and when im away!

I believe Air NZ crew get a meal allownce if they do not get time to consume their meal, and its up to the cabin manager to report whether this happens or not...

What do we think about the 4 crew being implemented on the 737-800? Do you think it will make that much difference?

I dont think it will make much of a difference to the crew, but I think the CS will definitely feel the pressure.

Crewbus I dont know of anyone who is pleased at the concept... so far from my experiences it presents the biggest issue on turnaround - CS and L2 boarding, R2 at the overwing (during refuelling) only leaves R1 spare - the CS and R1 tend to swap boarding back and forth quite a bit as CS does a fair bit of work during boarding (OBT log on, flight report, bank bag etc - especially on a short sectors day) - so if you have a boarding issue at the front (eg duplicate boarding pass etc) and R1 goes to deal with that, and all of a sudden L2 has a boarding issue too - well the sh*t can potentially hit the fan - same goes for R2 collecting unmins etc.

I can see a lot of delays occuring because of this... not to mention supp payment forms for crews not getting their breaks (even less frequently than happens now)

Any other thoughts?

Sinala1 - I thought the cart with the OBT and bank bags was supposed to be sealed during turnaround and until crew release. You not following procedure young man.
The best thing to do is understand the processes and try to implement them and fill out an action sheet or a hazard and event report whenever something goes pear shape. The business runs by the law of KRA's and KPI's, so if there is a spike in reports with legitimate issues in them that the safety department has to investigate, it will definately get the attention of management. We can't stop it being implemented, we can only report on and best manage the areas we are in control of.
Totally agree on the supp forms and breaks though!!

Its called Time Management - the less time I have to spend inflight doing that kind of stuff increases my available time for helping crew with other stuff, and therefore ultimately the amount of time available to crew for breaks - and was cleared by my CCDM as a "good idea" - but thanks for your feedback anyway :)

A question to the CS's - do you ever, ever get a break? Eg on a -700 (and soon -800 :( ) with 4 crew 4 sector MEL-SYD there is No time at all that you have away from the punters - at least the crew down the back get a bit of down time (after take off, and on descent)! R1's I find on these days get exhausted, and say the same thing - they are "on" all day. Sure its different when there are longer sectors etc, but I am talking about in general.

Would be interested to see what other CS's have to say, and more to the point how they are able to achieve these breaks and maintain KRA's at the same time?

Thanks!

Any truth that a SYD base is going to be opened again?

Apparently Yes, CokeCropDuster - not officially announced by the company, but pilot EBA talks made reference to 3 bases (BNE 30%, SYD 30%, MEL 40% I think were the sizes) - and I have heard an email went out to SYD ground crew that, amongst other things, made reference to the establishment of tech and cabin crew bases there this year.

I guess that would mean bye bye Sydney overnights?

Some, but can they get cabin crew in SYD to work for what we get paid?

As for no L2X only time will tell whether or not this is a good or bad thing. Yes we will be working differently than before but will we be working harder I cannot say for sure. We seem to survive when there are only 4 of us on a 700 and as a floater I dont always feel that welcome onto a 800 anyway so perhaps this will be better as far as the team goes. Breaks are already in the roster on the turns so you can forget about the sup payment form. No second service on flights below 2 hours, so once again forget the sup forms. The reality is that a fair few of those flights didnt have a second service anyway so lets just be honest with ourselves about that.
R1 and R2 dont marshall so that will save us and if the caterers put that away properly then more time there. All we have left is the cleaning and I am sure that by the next EBA when they reduce us to 3 crew and get the cleaners on they will save some more money.
My only thought is that live to air isnt going to be the saviour that we think. I believe that many people will think the tv is to expensive and wont bother paying the money. Have the wise men at the top thought about this and how they are going to keep foxtel happy. Will we have to increase our tickets by $6 to give the product away.
Also with all the changes happening with our breaks and reduced crew have the wise men worked out yet how expensive it is to pax us all around the country. When you pax a crew from MEL-SYD and the flight is full you are missing out on revenue. Who is accounting for this. I have seen full flights with 4 paxing crew equating to $2000 in revenue gone( 4xfully flex).
I guess you could say I am not happy with the way things are going atm but who is. Its time to start listening to all your employees and not just the ones going into the office.

How about the crews that are not following Service Flows on flights that would require a second service anyway?

I staff travelled BNE-ADL the other day, a 2hr 30 flight that only had 1 service done, and no more than 3 cabin crew walk-throughs done. Why? Because the crew were "too tired", or so they said (not that I asked - I had gone to the galley for a drink and when they realised I was on staff travel, the comment was, and I quote - "damn we were hoping there was no one on board so we don't have to do a second service"). I can tell you now that all flights that I operate that require a second service, get a second service (circumstances permitting, of course).

As for breaks being on the rosters during turns, well time will tell if that happens or not - but then of course crew are going to whinge and moan about spending time in airports!

As for R1 and R2 marshalling well that does not really make a huge difference either way - I am guessing thats been done purely to keep R2 at the overwing on the -800 during boarding/disembarking when refuelling.

So much is going to change, and I for one am looking forward to having an EBA document to read so I can make some informed decisions on how I vote.

this is a very interesting dicussion indeed!

As crew we can only do what we can do. I do my job very well at the moment and for me personally I WILL NOT work any harder next month. It will be interesting to see if there is an increase in delays as I think on an 800 the days of 15 minute HOT TURNS are over with 4 crew only. I suspect there will also be an increase in "door incidents" at R2 as some people will rush through the disarm/crossck in order to get to the overwing before the stampede??!!

Alas, howver, I think the boat has sailed on this issue as CASA has put its stamp on it and soon our JQ friends will also have to endure reduced crews.

Adam xoxo