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True that JetstarFA.. may I ask where you have flown with a 3 crew 733 operation? :confused:
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Sabena back in the mid 90's - ..... I can tell you ALL about it if you like sebby
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Well before you get your back too far arched, I only asked because I work on 733s now in a 3 crew operation and wondered if perhaps you have worked for the same company as me.
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No worries :ok:
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As for DJ proceeding with the 4 crew 738, this has been canned for the moment. As per the email that was inadvertantly sent out by a DM, it was retracted about 30 minutes after it was released. Yes they are holding on to it for a little longer, and from my way of thinking, once the new EBA has been completed. So therefor we ( DJ crew) should/need to stipulate in our new EBA about how many crew are required per an aircraft. This will be important if DJ purchase the Embraer jets which hold about 80-100 pax.
I couldnt imagine 4 crew on a 100 seater, so negotiation would need to be sort. |
1:50 ratio
hey there,
yes i can confirm that it is an option for VB to crew a -800 with 4 crew, we can already do it. At the moment it requires no more than 144 PAX. The 1:50 is nothing new, it is done by many successful airlines such as south west. Freedom air have it as well, which is now also includes Air NZ A320 serivces. To be honest with you, 3 crew on a 700 is not ideal due to the service, restocking of the catering and cleaning all will prove 30 min turns and 3 crew will not work. However we must think about getting aircraft out in the mornings. Say for example a 700 is doing OOL SYD at 510am sign on. a cc member goes sick at the airport. there is nothing we can do at the moment. it will cancell the flight or wait for another crew to arrive at the airport. If we can go with 3 crew and get into SYD, we can be joined by a relief cc, or they could have paxed another crew to meet the aircraft when it gets in. Pac Blue can operate an 800 with 3 crew and reduced pax load of 150... is that what is next on the scene? |
look.. there are plenty 'for' and 'againsts' for this topic. personally, i think the more crew the better,perhaps not evacuation wise (unless the a/c is all in one peice and its agood evac where its not broken up) but just for other things.. like inflight fires etc it would be great to have the extra crew available.
having said that.. this WILL go through. there is no way it wont. Its happening in Europe.. and our companies here want it. Perhaps we need to start thinking more about our ABP briefings instead of ranting and raving. And i also agree.. half the cabin crew you fly with (all of us.. no one in particular) are probably useless in an evac anyway. i flew the other day with a chickie who panicked about upcoming EPs cos "she knew nothing.. had NO idea". it makes me wonder. xx |
So, its now been officially announced - 4 crew on the 737-800 rostered from early next year, and in the meantime the -800 can be crewed with 4 crew and a full pax load if someone goes sick
http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2006/CASA321.pdf :mad: :{ :* :ouch: I don't care if its done elsewhere in the world, as I said earlier it does not mean its worlds best practice - just cheapest Has anyone else noticed that alot of the cost cutting that is going on is happening in the CC department? 4 Crew on the B738; and this next EBA - who knows what its going to come of it... Can I please ask that crew of other australian airlines don't blame VB crew when this is implemented with you too - we are just as against it as you are |
What do you think the major imapcts of this will be for you at Virgin?
I'm curious as I fly on 767-300's and we have 4 crew looking after 204 pax in economy. Sure a 5th crew member would be great, however we manage to do a full service on a CNS/BNE and CNS/SYD sector. In relations to an evacuation, what is the role of the 5th crew member at Virgin? Responsibility for o/wings as there are only 4 doors? I just want to know how you guys think this will effect things. Cheers, Raverflaver :) |
Raver I don't think they will be worried about the service side of things - the debate and concern is over the fundamental 1:36 ration rule being undermined.
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I am totally disgusted with the 3 crew operation that QF jetconnect/Air NZ continue to operate out of NZ. ( Please note this opinion does not relate to the crew who operate for these carriers/subsidiary)
Let's think about the QF 6 incident for example. Crew have already disarmed their doors as a/c has docked on aerobridge. Then......engineers on ground report fire from landing gear due overheated breakes....this then causes 'evacuate ' PA from flight deck. Although the QF6 indicent relates to 744 aircraft, tell me how one flight attendant at the rear of a 737 would deal with this if it were to happen to him/her ? I can only imagine what the drill cards under the jumpseat of the poor bugger sitting at the rear R2/L2 door must say -: 1. Commence Evac Commands 2. Check BOTH doors safe to open 3. Stop 100 + rushing/scared pax coming towards you 4. Keep them out of galley 5. Stop them pushing you out of way 6. Make sure your commands are loud and clear so they obey 7. Get down on knees and arm BOTH doors again ensuring girt bar is engaged. 5. Recheck BOTH doors 6. Open BOTH doors 7.Ensure inflation on BOTH slides 8. Direct passengers off aircraft We have some people on here who managed to serve hot sandwhiches on a 40min sector with 3 crew. Congratulations !! Service or Safety ?? |
I do realise that, however they still do go out into the cabins with carts offering a service....
My concern was, will it impact that much in an evacuation.....as you wouldn't need two crew operating a door.....unless of an incapactiated primary....that's why I was curious as to what their 5th crew members responsibility currently isin the event of an emrgency..... RaverFlaver :) |
In a 3 crew operation there at Jetconnect there are 2 FAs seated at the rear. The CSM is forward on their own. An Air New Zealand 733 with 3 cabin crew recently evactuated 100 pax and 3 infants with no injuries on the tarmac at AKL international. They did a sterling job, and in a very quick space of time. Google it....
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Sebby regardless of where you all sit, the point I am trying to make is the workload of a single f/a in the given situation. Don't take it personally, I know you work for the airline concerned hence why I made the comment in previous post that I am not attacking crew.
Telling me to google an Air NZ incident does nothing to stop my fears over 3 crew evacuations. Every emergency is different and not every evacuation runs smoothly - that is why I am posing the QF 6 re-arming door and evacuating question for 3 cabin crew compliment crew. |
Hang on - I most certainly wasnt taking it personally, i merely want to take a positive out of the hard working 3 crew operation. Gee id love to have 4 crew on a domestic operation, especially regarding the 400 but its been proven once that it can work and the likes of Geoff Dixon and co would have heard cha ching at the sight of that near miss recently! Ive worked in Aus under those laws and I agree with you, 100% safety and service satisfaction will never be complete under these conditions but its been this way here and in many other places for a long time and its certainly not going to go the other way in those places but its just a matter of time before it does in australia. :bored:
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QF Skywalker,
Like Sebby I too have worked with 3 crew on a 733. If you use your example, during that stage of things, L1 door would be opened with air bridge attached. L2 & R2 would have crews at the door and both doors would take a few seconds at most to rearm (there is clearly no need to cross check them in an emergency) and the doors would be opened. That's at least 3 exits usable, from that it would be easy to evacuate a maximum of 126 pax in 90 seconds, especially considering most would exit through the airbridge (as they did on QF6). The 737 door arming procedure is very quick and simple, the slides inflate in under 15 seconds. With 3 crew, there is still always 3 primary doors covered, plus ABP are provided with comprehensive briefings at the O/W exits, essentially in a prepared evac you have 5 usable exits - remember the FAA and CASA certification for the 733 was done using only 3. I've worked with 3, 4 and 5 crew on the 733 and all modes were perfectly safe. Unless you've seen the SOP's for the 3 crew configuration, I don't think you're qualified to comment. There are many crew on this board from both NZ and Europe who operate under this configuration and I have never read of any of them feeling unsafe about doing so. |
Take Scandinavian Airlines (SAS) for instance. They usually operate with minimum crew on all their aircraft types; Boeing 737-600/700 3 CC, Boeing 737-800 4 CC, MD80 3 CC... would be surprised to see if they go out with more crew than required!
BA LGW, B737 is also crewed by 3 CC. londonlads |
The point again that I will continue to make is Just because other parts of the world do it, does NOT mean that australia has to - its not necessarily worlds best practice, just worlds cheapest...
There is no mention in the exemption of the -700 having 3 crew - its only for the -800 to have 4 crew. Glad to see the cost cutting is not being included in upper management though - did everyone see the proposition in the Notice of AGM to give Brett another 650,000 shares? :hmm: (for those of you who didnt read the letter, you can find it here http://www.virginblue.com.au/pdfs/in...ofAGMFinal.pdf - its Section 5 on page 2 of the letter...) |
I have to agree with Sinala 1, just because countries in other parts of the world do things differently, doesn't mean their practices are any better or safer than ours. I also work in the healthcare industry as a Nurse and having worked in the UK I can say that we are fortunate to have much better nurse to patient ratios here in Australia and I believe consequently better patient outcomes and having worked as a nurse in the UK, our healthcare system is leaps and bounds ahead when it comes to safe practice, this is why our nursing unions fight very hard to maintain the high working standards and practices we have here in Oz.
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Isn't there something you can do though? There must be a way to stop it:sad: less crew on 800s will mean they need to employ less crew:{
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Originally Posted by DJTibby
Isn't there something you can do though? There must be a way to stop it
The only good news is that the exemption applies specifically to the B737-800 - its NOT a change of the current Ratio of 1:36 as currently stands in Australia - although how long do we think it will take before that changes too :{ Management say we will be working harder, not smarter - on a 4 sector MEL-SYD day I would like to see how we are going to be able to achieve our LEGALLY entitled meal breaks (which we are rarely getting now as it is) - whats the bet that clause is written OUT of this next EBA := :hmm: |
So if these new exemptions aren't effecting the 1:36 ratio does this mean that if there is 4 crew on a B738 the pax load will be capped? If so, this has actually been happening for years with various arlines. I was paxing on a Qantas B738 recently and the CSM mentioned to me that they were "one crew member down" due to a crewing dilemma - therefore the flight was capped. I used to work on Bae146-300s which had a max pax load of about 85 however we could operate them with 2 flight attendants if the pax load was capped at 72. 1 FA was responsible for L1 & R1 and the same for L2 & R2.
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FliteGirl - VB have already been doing that since we had the B738's. This is a seperate exemption that allows the -800 to be crewed with 4 crew and a full pax load (189 pax, which includes 9 infants), however the way the exemption is worded relates specifically to the B737-800 only - it makes no mention of changing the CC to Pax ratio across the board... although I am sure that won't be far off :{ :mad:
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Guys, if you read the info posted it clearly states that the CC to Pax ratio has been changed from 1:36 to 1:50. The reason the 737-700 will not have 3 CC is because CASA states that there must be a trained CC member for each non "self help" type exit, therefore a door exit. On VB 737-800 aircraft the 5th CC member is responsible for evacuating the overwing area, this will now be the responsibility of ABP's as this type of exit is considered to be "self help".
It won't be long before QF and JQ submit an application to CASA so they too can be assessed for the opportunity to operate with a reduced crew complement. Unfortunately VB were the first to do it. This is going to be a fact in Australian aviation and it is only a matter of time before our friends at other airlines will be forced to follow suit. |
Actually, Flying Frypan, Section 2 of the Document I linked to previously (here it is again for those who missed it) states clearly:
"This instrument applies to the aircraft mentioned in Schedule 1 operated by Virgin Blue Airlines, Aviation Reference Number 567591 (the operator) and engaged in Regular Public Transport operations" Schedule 1 states: "Schedule 1 Aircraft Australian registered Boeing 737-800 series with a type data certificate that provides for a maximum seating capacity of 189" There is reference made to the 1:36 ratio and CAO 20.16.3 in the explanatory notes, but nowhere does it state that the ratio has been changed across the board - only in this "instrument", which applies only to the B737-800 aircraft configured with 189 pax or less. This is not a good thing folks :* |
Guys the exemption isn't as complicated as it sounds. You just need to understand how to read CASA crap.
Current rules state: Ratio of 1:36 for aircraft with a capacity under 215. Exemption: Ignore the crew ratio, VB can crew a 737-800 with 4 crew up to a capacity of 189 passengers. There is no change for crew in terms of safety procedures, but as Sinala has mentioned, there is a change in terms of workload for the service and the access to breaks during flight. The other note in referencing the instrument and the explanatory note is that they have a requirement for a crew member at each floor level exit. Thus when the CAO actually changes within the next year or so, CASA could maintain this requirement and as such the -300 or -700 will still need 4 crew. |
Originally Posted by keeperboy
(Post 2827435)
In the UK as has already been pointed out the legal minimum is one crew member per 36 pax seats.
Just to clarify for other UK crew, it's 1 per 50 pax seats in the UK too |
The best thing to do is.......do what you can do, so if half the pax dont get served on a flight then so be it. They can submit there complaints.
I will keep you busy with getting want I want and hopefully this insanity wont last long. |
Bailey's Dad - im pretty sure the crew arent that concerned with the service (correct me if im wrong), more the safety aspect of operating with less crew. Im doubtful that 4 crew wont be able to complete an all Y/C service with only saleable items available.
And unfortunately if it cant be done time and time again then the solution wont be adding crew but simplifying the service instead. And the downward spiral begins.... |
Originally Posted by Flying Frypan
(Post 2914742)
CASA states that there must be a trained CC member for each non "self help" type exit, therefore a door exit.
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I actually think the wording refers to an aircraft with a standard load over 200 or something that requires one crew member for every floor level exit, so the 1:36 ratio no longer applies. During my training in australia when i worked there, this is what i was taught.
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Originally Posted by sebby
(Post 2918987)
I actually think the wording refers to an aircraft with a standard load over 200 or something that requires one crew member for every floor level exit, so the 1:36 ratio no longer applies. During my training in australia when i worked there, this is what i was taught.
6.1(c) aircraft carrying more than 216 passengers shall carry the number of cabin attendants as prescribed by CASA which shall not be less than 1 cabin attendant for each floor level exit in any cabin with 2 aisles; Civil Aviation Order 20.16.3 There is no similar requirement for single aisle aircraft or those with fewer than 216 passengers. |
Thanks for that CD. :)
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new overwing brief
Thanks Sinala1 for the Casa document. I delivered the new 'over the top' overwing brief the other day and was shocked at how detailed it was. I felt like it was in too much detail and could possibly scare nervous flyers who were listening in. Reading the CASA thing - I see now that overwing pax need to be actually briefed in gory detail on when/how to opertate the exit. It would have been nice if the company had explained the reason for the change to us. Without explanation, most crew will stick with the old brief - which will be a violation of the exemption!
The other note in the exemption as that there will be 2 abp at each overwing door - they have yet to notify us of the requirement yet either! I think its important that all CS fill out supp payments so VB can see the effect of this is having cost wise! Lets make it more expensive in break penalty than paying an L2X! And for you VB hopefuls - I think we may be officially overstaffed for some months to come! Love, Adam Ps: Funny that VB gets this wonderful little gift from CASA who is led by former VB manager BB! |
CASA amended the requirement slightly in the following document:
Instrument number 393/06: Amendment of instrument CASA 321/06 Here is the first one, as shared by sinala1: Instrument number 321/06: Direction - number of cabin attendants You can keep up with these changes at this site: 2006 Archive - Legislative changes |
Originally Posted by CD
(Post 2919364)
There is no similar requirement for single aisle aircraft or those with fewer than 216 passengers.
Very interesting about the requirement there is two ABP at each exit and the new briefing. So Virgin are yet to advise you if this? Let's hope that CS fill in meal break penalties whenever they are required. When it starts costing the company money they WILL take notice. Hopefully cabin crew stick to their guns and are not intimidated into not filling them out. I wonder how long it will take for other airlines to follow suit? |
Regarding the exit briefing... just wondering what was covered in the 'old' and what you now have to add? Just that with my flying, we always had to tell the pax what they were looking for (i.e. fire, obstacles, water etc) and when to move (the "evacuate" command)... what do you mean by new 'level of detail'?
And you're right, I think it may scare the pax a little, but they dont have to sit ther eif they don't want to!! Always plenty of people willing to sit there... whether they would actually do well is a particular pet subject of mine, but that's for another thread (which has already been covered :E) |
Im with Ditzyboy
On a 767 early am flight less than 2hrs flying time. The service in Y is,
4 crew - 204 PAX, 6 double carts serving breakfast, then tea/coffee, then collection 6 carts with 2nd tea/coffee, then 4 double carts serving snack - a choice of 3 things - savory, sweet and/or piece of fruit followed by bottled water or bottled juice and a soft/alcholic drink on request, then there is a collection serivce after that! Ive travelled in Europe on a 2+hr sector and have had to request a drink of water, which arrived in a paper cup! And was slapped down a 'meal'- some kind of sandwich which was still frozen! Coffee, "Im sorry mam we dont have time for hot drinks on todays flight!" As for inflight entertainment, BYO! And dont mention the fact that in QF we have blankets and pillows, Baby Meals, Special Meals and for premium pax in Y newpapers. And a free movie with free headsets for all!!!!! So dont tell us we dont have a bloody good service! Our feet and backs pay for it at the end of the day.
Originally Posted by ditzyboy
(Post 2825452)
With all due respect, you need to get your facts straight, Mate. I assume that by 'service' you mean product offering? (I believe service to be how the staff offer the product and not how much they give you.)
Iberia - Buy-Onboard (BOB) SAS - BOB or cold snack item in Y. All-Y on domestic flights BA - Hot breakky then cold snack all day in Y. All-Y on domestic flights Lufthansa - Sandwich/roll in Y Swiss - Small snack item and choice of drink Finnair - Cold/Hot meal of varying descriptions. Though only one class service and free seating on domestic BMI - BOB or sandwich/roll in Y (depend on route). Tiny hot meal in cardbox box in C (business) class. Air France - Single class domestic. Small cold snack on most Euro flights. The lowest level of offering in Y class at Qantas (tandem snack - AM Refresh, Lunch and PM Refresh - flight under 90 mins) is equivilent to what the greatest level of service offered by the vast majority of European full-service carriers. Few european carriers service hot meal in Y on one hour sectors. Few have two classes of service of domestic and shorter European flights. Oz domestic travel ain't what it used to be but it's completely competitive on product offering on a world scale. Bear in mind, too, that one (737) or two (767) extra cabin crew are onboard for short dinner services as we simply cannot get the service done otherwise. Despite airfares in Australia being the cheapest they have ever been customers expect service levels to be greater. Or maybe staff through the industry should just take pay cuts so customers' level of amenity and product offering stay the same? |
I am not a cabin crew member but have an interest in this area, so anyone with cabin crew experience please answer this.
The change at Virgin Blue and the impact it will have it not a safety issue but more one of workload management. Can the crew carry out the same duties but with one person less and what changes to duties (ala service) may be required. And also will the crew meet the break requirements. Flygirl you mentioned the service standard for 204 pax with 4 crew. Not having flown on QF (I assume it's QF) for a while, what would the 'time per row' be. I mean how long would it take you to serve one row of seats. The reason I ask, is that on some full service carriers the service is the provision of a prepared meal tray that is provided to every passenger. Whereas at Virgin Blue, each passenger has a personalised order which must to catered for and then have a transaction. I'm not saying either is better, just curious over the time it takes. What I am trying to ascertain is the time per row and thus the overall time you are in the aisle serving when doing a full service of prepared meals versus the time taken when you pay on board and order what you like. Thanks |
737opsguy its pretty difficult to give a "time per row" for a pay-as-you-go service, as each passengers order can vary considerably. For eg, pax orders vb & sandwich - takes 5 seconds to get from carts, open VB, hand to pax and all done - total transaction time less than a minute. Pax 2 on the other hand orders hot chocolate, sandwich, cheese & biscuits - total transaction time probably closer to 2 mins by the time the hot choccie is made up etc. Same goes for coffee - because its individual instant sachets, it takes longer to make up. Somtimes you will get 5 rows of pax who order nothing, other times you will get 144 pax ordering $10 worth of food/drink each on a 1 hour sector.
To answer your question regarding achieving breaks, its not happening now!! So I really don't see how it will be possible with 4 crew on the 738. The problem with the service is that there is not a lot that can be done to change it - so all the hype from management about how we will be "working smarter, not harder" is a bit hard to swallow - and now they are asking for our submissions and suggestions on how to change the service flows, because they have made changes that we did not want or ask for! := Why should we have to figure out changes to the service flow when we did not want the reduction of crew in the first place? :* I also wonder if anyone has put any thought into the fact that now on the -800 with only 4 crew, if someone goes sick mid-duty in a port thats not a base there is no longer any redundancy there - they cant just cap the flight and go with 4 crew, now the flight will be delayed/cancelled altogether? :ugh: |
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