DJ: 4 crew on 737-800 next year?
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DJ: 4 crew on 737-800 next year?
A MEL CS just showed me a memo that states VB and CASA have reached an agreement that Virgin can have 4 crew operate an 800 - with full guest loads! Why would CASA give VB such an exemption, but not Qantas? A bit of a worry. Meant to start being 'phased in' next year. YIKES.
anyone heard anything else about this?
anyone heard anything else about this?
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With the amount of service that we do in Qantas on a 50min Mel-Syd dinner flight we couldnt physically do it with only 4 crew. Our configs are 12/156 on our 737-800's.
Whats the full pax load on a VB 737-800?
That doesnt mean that QF won't try it though.....
Whats the full pax load on a VB 737-800?
That doesnt mean that QF won't try it though.....
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DJ are suffering profit losses since the inception of JQ. Once the cocky airline on the block, they are now thinking smarter at ways to keep themselves competitive.
They need to lower their costs - one idea is cut manpower on a/c which is why they have been in talks with CASA.
Every airline is doing it. The honeymoon period is over at DJ. New roster systems and new costcutting ideas will have those galleys thriving with gossip.
Hang in there.
They need to lower their costs - one idea is cut manpower on a/c which is why they have been in talks with CASA.
Every airline is doing it. The honeymoon period is over at DJ. New roster systems and new costcutting ideas will have those galleys thriving with gossip.
Hang in there.
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This is not new news. The Mutual recognition bill was placed before parliment last year. It has been passed in the senate so it is only a matter of time before parts of this are implemented. The biggest thing to effect cabin crew is the new CC to pax ratio of 1:50. (currently 1:36) So this means that we can have 4 CC on an 737-800 that holds 180 pax. It could potentially mean 3 on the 737-700, but at this time CASA have said that there will still need to be 4 crew on the 700 - 1 for each door. VB are doing the warm fuzzy by attempting to get our opinion on how this will impact our crew, but the truth is that this will be implemented regardless. It will only be a matter of time until QF follow suit.
BTW this memo wasn't supposed to go out. It was a mistake by the MEL admin staff. A whole explaination and stuff was supposed to come out first.
BTW this memo wasn't supposed to go out. It was a mistake by the MEL admin staff. A whole explaination and stuff was supposed to come out first.
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I will go nuts if this is the case... I know other parts of the world operate this way, but thats no reason for us to start doing so. As a nation, we have one of the best safety records in the world - lets not start eroding at the pieces of the puzzle that make up this record 
Time for the FAAA to show its worth and stop this legislation from going through - give me reason to want to re-signup as a member!!! (I left after someone from the union was employed by one of the airlines the union was supposed to represent)
Time for the FAAA to show its worth and stop this legislation from going through - give me reason to want to re-signup as a member!!! (I left after someone from the union was employed by one of the airlines the union was supposed to represent)
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It was only a matter of time before this gem was released into the Australian domestic scene. I am sure that DJ have been sitting back letting QF do all the talking to the PM about how this will help there bottom line. Meanwhile back in Spring Hill the DJ board is probably rubbing there hands with glee thinking of the savings they can make by reducing the number of CC. Starts to make sense why more CC are leaving than being hired and why we are all working max hours plus getting called out for availables and drafts.
I suppose our pay rises have to come from somewhere and the easiest way would be to divide the pie 4 ways instead of 5.
I suppose our pay rises have to come from somewhere and the easiest way would be to divide the pie 4 ways instead of 5.
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From my experience of QF domestic service, you could do the work with less than four. The pax get very poor service on Oz domestics in comparison to European full service carriers. You're better than US carriers, but then again that's nothing to be compared to.
In the UK, 1:50 is the standard ratio. I would suggest that it is just about OZ catching up with the rest of the world.
In the UK, 1:50 is the standard ratio. I would suggest that it is just about OZ catching up with the rest of the world.
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I am working for a lost cost airline in the uk we also operate 737-800 carrying 189 pax have only 4 crew. Over here the law states 1 crew member per 50 pax so in theory if was flying a bigger a/c for example carrying 199 pax could operate with just the four crew.
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Iberia - Buy-Onboard (BOB)
SAS - BOB or cold snack item in Y. All-Y on domestic flights
BA - Hot breakky then cold snack all day in Y. All-Y on domestic flights
Lufthansa - Sandwich/roll in Y
Swiss - Small snack item and choice of drink
Finnair - Cold/Hot meal of varying descriptions. Though only one class service and free seating on domestic
BMI - BOB or sandwich/roll in Y (depend on route). Tiny hot meal in cardbox box in C (business) class.
Air France - Single class domestic. Small cold snack on most Euro flights.
The lowest level of offering in Y class at Qantas (tandem snack - AM Refresh, Lunch and PM Refresh - flight under 90 mins) is equivilent to what the greatest level of service offered by the vast majority of European full-service carriers.
Few european carriers service hot meal in Y on one hour sectors. Few have two classes of service of domestic and shorter European flights.
Oz domestic travel ain't what it used to be but it's completely competitive on product offering on a world scale.
Bear in mind, too, that one (737) or two (767) extra cabin crew are onboard for short dinner services as we simply cannot get the service done otherwise. Despite airfares in Australia being the cheapest they have ever been customers expect service levels to be greater. Or maybe staff through the industry should just take pay cuts so customers' level of amenity and product offering stay the same?
Last edited by ditzyboy; 5th Sep 2006 at 06:07.
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Well done ditzy boy.
I flew on European airlines a few months ago and i compare them to US carriers with regards to inflight service - or lack thereof.
On a SYD-MEL sector at dinner time we offer a hot meal in economy and a free bar of wine/beer and soft drinks plus you can purchase spirits.
In Business we offer a choice of meals, a bar service and a coffee and tea service. And you have to look after 2 Tech crew who both have hot meals as well.
All on a 1hr sector (make that 48mins on the return leg).
And you reckon we can do it with less crew???
I flew on European airlines a few months ago and i compare them to US carriers with regards to inflight service - or lack thereof.
On a SYD-MEL sector at dinner time we offer a hot meal in economy and a free bar of wine/beer and soft drinks plus you can purchase spirits.
In Business we offer a choice of meals, a bar service and a coffee and tea service. And you have to look after 2 Tech crew who both have hot meals as well.
All on a 1hr sector (make that 48mins on the return leg).
And you reckon we can do it with less crew???
Thank you eidah for that information. In Aus. we are well aware of the 1:50 ratio used by the rest of the world. Australian operators are probably the safest in the world and as crew we would like to keep it that way. We are horrified at the thought of our legislators allowing us to go down the road of profits before safety!
Last edited by flitegirl; 5th Sep 2006 at 06:23. Reason: gramatical error
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New Zealand operates with a 1:50 ratio and also has an impeccable safety record.
Today, I served the flight deck and also did tea and coffee for 126 pax while my csm operated on the cart with L2 position crewmember.
We offered a hot sandwhich, saleable bar and as i mentioned tea and coffee or water, this was on a 40 minute AKL - WLG sector.
In a 3 crew operation I dont believe the cabin is any less secure than with 4, or the passengers are at any huge risk of not being able to evacuate quickly.
Our overwing pax are briefed, I (as R2) know my responsibilites and L1, L2 are aware of their door responsibilities.
I believe 1:50 is sufficient, when we did full service we operated with 4. (this is on 733/4).
Accross the tasman we operate the 300 with 4 and the 400 with 4 up to a certain number of pax and 5 when the pax goes over 11/100 as an assist.
Be interesting to see when this is implemeneted. . .
Today, I served the flight deck and also did tea and coffee for 126 pax while my csm operated on the cart with L2 position crewmember.
We offered a hot sandwhich, saleable bar and as i mentioned tea and coffee or water, this was on a 40 minute AKL - WLG sector.
In a 3 crew operation I dont believe the cabin is any less secure than with 4, or the passengers are at any huge risk of not being able to evacuate quickly.
Our overwing pax are briefed, I (as R2) know my responsibilites and L1, L2 are aware of their door responsibilities.
I believe 1:50 is sufficient, when we did full service we operated with 4. (this is on 733/4).
Accross the tasman we operate the 300 with 4 and the 400 with 4 up to a certain number of pax and 5 when the pax goes over 11/100 as an assist.
Be interesting to see when this is implemeneted. . .
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One Mr T.J- now with Q.F , who was known at Ansett as a desk thumping megalomaniac, pushed extrememley hard to get the ratio changed fron 1:36 to 1:50. It just happened to coincide with the introduction of 100 seat CRJ jet for Kendall Airlines. It was his cost saving dream to operate these aircraft with 2 cabin crew instead of 3.
Probably because he is widely known as a total W@#nker his pleas to CASA were thankfully denied.
No doubt this will be tried again in the future , particularly with the widespread development of the one class, low service model in Australia.
Probably because he is widely known as a total W@#nker his pleas to CASA were thankfully denied.
No doubt this will be tried again in the future , particularly with the widespread development of the one class, low service model in Australia.
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It doesn't matter if you are full cost or low cost it is all about cost and driving the cost of the marketplace down.
It will mean that Jetconnect (Jetstar and Qantas) and the Virgin Blue equivilent will be able to do a couple of AUST domestic sectors before popping home to NZ.... Why ? because the cost is cheaper and they can do longer hours than the AUST based crew.
It's got nothing to do with how many tea and coffee services a 3 or 4 person crew can do or who has the better service or how many business class pax get a choice of how many hot meals...Our airline managers will operate us at the lowest possible cost.....
Levels or service are all down to the individual. We all know what impeccible service is and we all know what,"this is my 8th day in a row and I have been up since 4am and that man in 12F was the 18th man to abuse me today", service is..... Doesn't how many people are there... Makes our work load a bit easier thats all....
The biggests loser will be AUST Crew Wannabies who will find it harder to find a job based in Australia....
This is not all galley rumours either, the FAAA Domestic having been fighting to stop the 1:36 ration and the above has been their biggest fear.....
Oh well.....
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Just a few thougths.....with 4 crew (even 5 on occasion) on 73's, if all crew are out serving the pax, it can be quite hard to contact the cabin crew in critical (but not emergency) phases of flight. Sometimes we need timely communication with the cabin crew, without needing to go for all the bells and whistles.
If there is a passenger disruption, it can take all cabin crew to deal with the situation, in the meantime the flight deck door can be exposed to additional security issues.
So whilst sebby can do a fantastic service on a short sector, serving sambos with only 3 crew, I think there are further considerations which need to be accounted for.
After all pax service, whilst important, is really only a secondary priority to pax/crew safety.
If there is a passenger disruption, it can take all cabin crew to deal with the situation, in the meantime the flight deck door can be exposed to additional security issues.
So whilst sebby can do a fantastic service on a short sector, serving sambos with only 3 crew, I think there are further considerations which need to be accounted for.
After all pax service, whilst important, is really only a secondary priority to pax/crew safety.
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Thank you eidah for that information. In Aus. we are well aware of the 1:50 ratio used by the rest of the world. Australian operators are probably the safest in the world and as crew we would like to keep it that way. We are horrified at the thought of our legislators allowing us to go down the road of profits before safety!
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Errmmm...just being devils advocate here. 
But with all this harping on about 'thats why we have such a great safety record' stuff in oz/nz. I just don't really seem how it can be linked to cabin crew ratios if the safety record over there is so good that crashes never really happen. I'd say that might be down more to the pilots/maitenence/ATC. And perhaps the fact (that in Air NZ case anyway) the fleet size is very small on a worldwide scale and flying into/through less congested airspace than the average euro/US airline.
And surely operating rotations like LAX/JFK/LAX (per QF) is more of a safety hazard from a cabin crew perspective than a 1:50 ratio?
In the UK as has already been pointed out the legal minimum is one crew member per 36 pax seats.
At BA we rarely operate to the legal minimum. Tho the times they are a changin (especially for the poor buggers on s/haul). This however is totally service driven and got nothing to do with safety.
On short-haul (A319/320/321/757/767) the crew ratio is dependent on the Club (Business Class) loads.
On L/H our crew compliments are fixed. 8 on the 767 (also legal minimum - but only 181 seats on it). 12 or 13 on the 777 (route/config dependant). 15 or 16 on the 747 (route/config dependant).
In regards to service levels.....when I came home to OZ a few months ago and flew QF from SYD to MEL to see my sis couldn't believe what you guys offer on the aircraft on such a short flight. Was impressed!!!
But with all this harping on about 'thats why we have such a great safety record' stuff in oz/nz. I just don't really seem how it can be linked to cabin crew ratios if the safety record over there is so good that crashes never really happen. I'd say that might be down more to the pilots/maitenence/ATC. And perhaps the fact (that in Air NZ case anyway) the fleet size is very small on a worldwide scale and flying into/through less congested airspace than the average euro/US airline.
And surely operating rotations like LAX/JFK/LAX (per QF) is more of a safety hazard from a cabin crew perspective than a 1:50 ratio?
In the UK as has already been pointed out the legal minimum is one crew member per 36 pax seats.
At BA we rarely operate to the legal minimum. Tho the times they are a changin (especially for the poor buggers on s/haul). This however is totally service driven and got nothing to do with safety.
On short-haul (A319/320/321/757/767) the crew ratio is dependent on the Club (Business Class) loads.
On L/H our crew compliments are fixed. 8 on the 767 (also legal minimum - but only 181 seats on it). 12 or 13 on the 777 (route/config dependant). 15 or 16 on the 747 (route/config dependant).
In regards to service levels.....when I came home to OZ a few months ago and flew QF from SYD to MEL to see my sis couldn't believe what you guys offer on the aircraft on such a short flight. Was impressed!!!
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Its not like there is a shortage of the population that is affecting this decision. It is purely a bottom line decision by the airline boards across OZ.
In response to
Just because you are used to working with 3 crew doesnt mean that it is the right thing to be doing. The media and general population will be the first to cry if something goes wrong and an extra door at the front could have gotten the other half of the pax off.
In response to
just because we have less crew on board that does not mean we are less safer then if we had more. I have found that when we do have extra crew they are just in the way.
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I never thought of 3 on the 700! How does one CC open 2 doors in an evacuation with 144 paniced passengers rushing at her?, "Would you all be so kind as wait here as I open the other door?" Any tips from our Euro-Cousins?