Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

Latest inside info:

Mr Walsh is very keen to streamline cabin services at BA and bring cabin crew costs down to industry standards. The current plans start with LGW becoming one fleet 737/777 (including 747 training for operational reasons) and crew working to a more uptodate work scheme. The proposals mean the LGW cabin crew agreement will allow them to fly in and out of LHR. While LHR crews think they may be safe the plan includes LGW crews being able to bid for/operate trips, including 747 ones (SIN/SYD, NRT etc)...all under a new pay structure/conditions.

Other areas being looked closely at are (reduced) days off after longhaul trips (to come in line with other carriers), crew complements (CSD role redundant/expensive?) and a standardised crew allowance system . BA management are also doing research into Qantas style base points, ie SYD based BA crew who do the SYD/MEL-LHR routes etc to reduce accommodation costs etc.

BASSA are now informing its members about the proposals and are obviously not impressed, but they know some form of change is definitely rearing its ugly head!
EG300 caused a few waves, but WAS implemented and now the next round of talks start.

PURR you are unbelievable.

Hot on the heels of your New Club World post which had no points of reference at all and was littered with inaccuracies (freedom dining etc etc), here you come out with another one just the same!

You sprout all these facts but where did you read about them? Where are you quoting from?

Yes, i'm sure WW would like ALL the things that you mention, he would also like us to be based in India and Pakistan working for a third party company for £200 per month. But I don't think that will happen either!

Your post totally contradicts itself. You start by talking about the LGW single fleet (which is fact), and then ramble on about LGW crew being able to bid for flights from LHR to Narita etc. LGW single fleet is about closing LGW WW mainline and that is it.

Fact......if as you mention LGW crew will be 737/777 'single fleet' how can they operate to NRT on a 747? Despite your claims, the single fleet LGW crew WILL NOT be trained on the 747.

Fact.....we can't even bid for any long haul flights as we don't have a bidding system on long-haul.

Fact....Discussions are only just beginning today (tues) between the union and BA to discuss single fleet LGW.

You obviously have access to the BASSA website where they are discussing it, but with your total lack of facts and knowledge of BA crew workings you are not BA crew.

For those of you without access to the BASSA website, here are the topics of discussion between BA management and BASSA over the next 3 days, and relating to LGW single fleet:
• Days off after a longhaul trip
• Mix of long & short haul flying in a duty day
• Night duties
• Report & debrief
• Allowances
• Visa a& Documentation arrangements
• Senior Cabin Crew member-role and responsibilities
• Crew Complement
• Crew rest seats-hi comfort

Again, the above only relates to the LGW single fleet operation.

Points of discussion re: LHR long-haul are centred around the removal of a Purser position, and on LHR short-haul the abolition of long crew turnarounds at LHR. Also mixed long/short haul 767 flying for short-haul LHR crew and shorthaul crew assisting with boarding.

Also, the 'hourly pay rate' (which I favour) will be up for discussion again also. All these issues are seperate from those at LGW and are due to be discussed once LGW single fleet is up and running.

Inaccuracies?
1.Single fleet means doing both short and longhaul, not one single aircraft!
2.No, bidding does not exist YET on WW, but it's part of the single fleet plans and LGW crews WILL be able to bid for 747 trips....

I suggest you stick to pressing BREW on the coffee machine!

ROSTAR bidding exists for LHR WW.

There will be changes at LHR taking place but only to fall in line with T5 implementation.

Such as long turnarounds, these are likely to be abolished when the crew and aircraft will all be operating from the same building. Time will be allowed for delays but not up to almost 4 hour turnarounds where they are now.

Shorthaul Eurofleet are already operating Longhaul flights, which are being rostered to crew on B767s. No change there.

The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence with currency, is simply not allowed. To select some crew for one aircraft and some for another would simply lead to inadequate crewing and scheduling, overcrewing for standby crews and problems covering sickness and delays, etc. BA have no wish to complicate matters further, or to increase overheads through having to employ additional crew to buffer shortfalls in cover.

Its obvious its going to change, streamlining has to happen to be effective within the business plan, but not in the way Purr suggests. Agreements will be made with the unions as to changes which need to take place and compromised around what BA management want to take place. Its called good business ethics.

I used to work for an airline which had one crew member assisting with boarding. This will only be possible providing CAA regulation are met. Firstly that there is one crew member in the vicinity of each pair of doors whilst the aircraft is on the ground, secondly that one crew member is onboard for each 50 passengers onboard. So if for an example 160 passengers were due to board an aircraft which has 2 sets of doors, you would have to have no less than 4 crew on board as soon as the 151st passenger steps on. From experience, it does help the crew as they are aware of any problems firsthand before they board, and ensures the customer is being advised of any delays and the reasons for which, and answer questions about products onboard, enabling a passenger for example to run to a shopn if they have needs the crew cant meet (if not delaying the aircraft!!).

Don't you think the BA crews have had enough to deal with this year without you scaremongering Purr?? Leave them to concentrate on their work, please.

In the meantime, I'll be asking someone else to BREW the coffee whilst I decide where to hang my picture in my new office.

PURRRRRRR.....unless you know something the Manager of Inflight Services doesn't maybe you should check your facts before you post inaccurate things.

I did my "OOF" course two weeks ago.

The Inflight Services Manager (JH) was there to answer questions.

One of the questions: "Will LGW single fleet crew be trained on the jumbo?" A: "No, only the 737 and 777".

Question: "Will LGW single fleet crew be able to operate from LHR?". A: "No, as all LHR mainline operations are covered under the NSP, which LGW will not form part of".

Have you done your OOF course yet PURR?? Is that where they told you that we will be having freedom dining and LGW crews will be 'bidding' for Oz routes on the 777?

Again, I ask you: What reference are you basing your claims on? I am able to say where I have gained my information. What about you?

I doubt you ever will of course, because judging by your views of BA and their crews in previous posts, at a guess I would say it is just wishful thinking on your part.

Dudes stop getting your nickers in a twist!

What do you think WW has been doin for 6 months whilst he worked "alongside" RE? He was sitting down deciding where the battles would be fought and for what, how far do you think this info has filtered down? Possiblty to JH, but when have managers ever spoken the truth? Come on guys (or gals) get real.

As a pilot who would have thought bidline would be under threat, who would have thought they would take away our pension? Its all on the table!!

As the X files said "trust no one" not even JH

To my mind anything is possible, and the workers at the coal face will be the last to hear............. welcome to the world of WW, maybe even BASSA won't get you out of this.

Talks still going on this week re Singlefleet at LGW . EF LGW crew will only be on 737/777 (however some crew are Airbus trained and that includes 319, 320(bcal), 320 & 321), so not sure what is going to happen to that , but will be asking on my OOF day. EF LGW not going to be on 747. If WW wanted to make Mixed Flying @LHR he could easily get rid of 757 and 767 and be left with Airbus , 777 @ 747 = 3 licences . So watch this space!!!!

Flyer55,

Just out of interest the Airbus 319/320/32A/321 variants are all classed as one aircraft type for CAA purposes. So EOG crew would be able to fly Airbus/737/777 and still be 'legal'.

Cheers,

tsb

Yeah thats true but EF LGW crew who are on the Airbus volunteered for it ! Airbus family are classed as one type aircraft.

If only the Australia base rumour was true...I'd be one very happy girl if it was! But it's all rubbish, and don't worry all you jealous people, Willie can't just change our contracts without us agreeing to it, which, obviously we won't if it's gonna ruin our conditions, so continue to hate us! :)

Quote:
"The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence"

Can we nail this on the head once and for all. Cabin Crew are NOT licenced.

Cabin Crew operations are regulated under JAR-OPS Sub part O. Cabin Crew are qualified by their company to work on aircraft operated by that company.

<<SECTION 1 JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O
SUBPART O – CABIN CREW
JAR-OPS 1.990(b)(2) (continued)
JAR-OPS 1.988 Applicability
(See IEM OPS 1.988)
[(a) A cabin crew member is a person who is
assigned by the operator to undertake tasks in the
cabin and shall be identifiable by virtue of an
operator’s cabin crew uniform to passengers as a
cabin crew member. Such persons shall comply with
the requirements of this Subpart and any other
applicable requirements of JAR-OPS 1.

[JAR-OPS 1.989 Terminology
Cabin Crew Member; A crew member, other than a
Flight Crew Member, who performs in the interests
of safety of passengers, duties assigned by the
operator or the commander of the aeroplane>>

Flight Crew also operate under JAR-OPS - Sub Part N. However they are licenced under JAR-FCL. For fixed wing operations it is JAR-FCL 1, Helicopters JAR-FCL 2, Medical matters are dealt with under JAR-FCL 3 and Flight Engineers under JAR-FCL 4.

There is no is no JAR-FCL for cabin crew. They are not licenced.

For information JAR-OPS regulations on Cabin Crew operating on more than one type are as follows:

<<JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O SECTION 1
1.1030 Operation on more than
one type or vari ant
(See ACJ OPS 1.1030)
An operator shall ensure that each cabin
crew member does not operate on more than three
aeroplane types except that, with the approval of the
Authority, the cabin crew member may operate on
four aeroplane types, provided that for at least two of
the types:
(1) Non-type specific normal and
emergency procedures are identical; and
(2) Safety equipment and type specific
normal and emergency procedures are similar.
(b) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (a)
above, variants of an aeroplane type are considered
to be different types if they are not similar in each
of the following aspects:
(1) Emergency exit operation;
(2) Location and type of portable safety equipment; and
(3) Type specific emergency procedures.>>

Wow Beerdrinker, thanks for the clarification!

But I dont really understand that last paragraph. It says that if two aircraft types are similar (say 319/320), a crew member can work on a maximum of four types.

But on BA short-haul they work on the 319/320/321/757/767.....5 types.

Maybe the 319/320 are considered variants of the same a/c?

Or maybe i'm just thick as sh*t and read the entire thing wrong? Lol

KB,
you are quite correct. The 319,320 and 321 are variants of the 320. As such to operate on them you are required to have "differences" training. So SH at LHR operate 3 types: 75,76 and 320 plus 320 variants. As I understand it CC at LGw operate 3 types: 777;747 and 737. (within the 737 family there are several variants 300;400;500)

WW sat in on an LHR Short Haul CC briaefing last month as an observer.

At the end of the briefing all he said was....

"One sector out is it?" ..... "That won't last."

Just outta curiousity juzinsider, how do you know he said this?

Surely if he had the management skills to attain the position of CEO with BA he would at least have the sense (and tact and diplomacy) to keep his thoughts to himself, or between himself and his peers, instead of saying something like that in front of his employees?

Apologies beerdrinker we have a misunderstanding. For those who apply for a position to become a CAA approved SEP Designated Examiner, you must hold a Cabin Crew Licence.

To apply for an SEP Instructor to the CAA you must hold a Cabin crew licence, limited to 10 aircraft types.

I didn't want to confuse Flight Crew/ Pilot licences (ie PPL, CPL, ATPL, etc) and maintenance (JAR-66, MultiX, BCAR, etc) licence holders who hold their own paper licences, with a cabin crew licence which is held by the employer. It's not the same sort of licence.

To be sure I'll have the lot of yee cuttin turf before the years out bejasus.

"WW sat in on an LHR Short Haul CC briaefing last month as an observer.

At the end of the briefing all he said was....

"One sector out is it?" ..... "That won't last."


WHAT UTTER BULL****.

OzzieO I would hate to agree with you, but in this instance i think you are spot on:p ;)

beerdrinker only WW crew fly on 747, so WW LGW Crew fly on 777 & 747, whereas EF Crew in LGW currently fly on 737 (300,436,500 models) and some fly on Airbus but trained on all variants 319,320A,320, 321 as they classed as one type like the 737

I can't stop laughing at this...That Willie Walsh poster is hillarious! :ok:

As for what Willie was supposed to say in that short haul briefing...Best joke I've heard in ages!

I know, you should all quit your jobs at your various airlines because you're obviously not happy and become stand up comedians...You may earn as much as a BA cabin crew member then! :)

I agree wirh Flying Sarah...Willie wont change a thing....the CC union is too strong and too clever to allow the CC to be bent over a barrell and shafted, the CC only have to call "strike" and the airline grinds to a halt very rapidly, the CC know it and they know WW knows it to ...... easier targets like BALPA for that!

Three letters: AMP

WW has already shown BASSA who's the boss.

Let me, as a mere pax, risk throwing a cat among the pigeons...

Recently, there was a fuel shortage in Cape Town for some 36 hours or sure, details in African Aviation forum. For the BA 744 non-stop CPT ~ LHR, this was a problem. However, a suitable refuelling point was available with only a slight diversion. Upington had fuel and a mighty long runway. Upington is in the Cape Province and, essentially, directly north from CPT. The a/c could have departed Cape Town, made a tech stop at Upington and got on home with a minimum of delay.

As I understand it, the BASSA agreement does not allow the CC to do this - although flight crew COULD. This meant that the a/c was stuck at CPT and passengers were not being flown and the schedules were disrupted, money was being lost and folks were getting very agitated.

Is this the case?
Does the CC contract prevent them making a tech stop and thus prevent the a/c getting home?
If so - then this must be only for a tech stop that is known about before departure?
If a tech stop becomes neccessary en route, will the CC then not complete the journey, thus forcing the a/c to be stuck at the intermediate point?

Please clarify the situation to me as I would not want to make any comment on what is, currently, second hand information.

I understand that the situation was rectified by the flight crew taking the machine to Upington to tank up and then returning to CPT for another night stop, to reset their Hours. Then they made the return to LHR in the normal single hop.

So what have the CC given then Carnage ? AMP merely brings them into line with the rest of BA, it'll still be BALPA caving in and the pilots getting shafted financially.....the CC unions havent really been shown who's boss at all as will be come apparent when WW goes after the rest of BA.

Paxboy, Im not too sure how to answer your question exactly whithout actually talking to a Bassa rep but I can certainly hazard a guess...which hopefully wont be a million miles off the fact!
The CC have different working time limitations then the flight crew. CPT already pushes the boundry of the maximum amount of time we can fly as it is one of the longest non-stop flights we operate. Now we certainly can do tech stops but obviously on a long flight the time we have to complete that tech stop is much shorter. Perhaps it was a case that with the time required to make the tech stop and fuel up the plane, it would have put the CC out of hours to operate the remainder of the flight home, either an additional stop would have to be made over north africa our southern europe for the cc to get some rest or they would have to be taken off the plane at the tech stop and allowed minimum hours rest!!!
This is just MY GUESS in the matter so dont shoot me down, I am just lending my opinion. The whole union agreements thing is a confusing one which I find very difficult to understand but just bere in mind that situations such as this are there to maximise the safety of everyone on board! Laugh if you will but until you have actually done the job, dont jest!

HG, that kind of attitude is very admirable, I'm glad you feel so secure. Maybe if you went and had a chat to some of our Aer Lingus friends you would be a little more wary.

If I was WW and read your post I would make it my number one aim to shaft you and all those with your arrogant, misinformed view. I'll make you an offer on you SLK when its up for sale in the New Year...

PAXBoy, your fuel shortage story sounds very dubious to me. A 744 full of fuel, even without freight and pax would exceed the max landing weight for a short hop with from Upington to Cape Town. I would think also with an elevation of 850m, the possibility of tech stopping on the way to London would quite possibly be payload restricted, especially in the Summer. I do agree that it is absurd that CC hours could ever be more limiting than that of Flight Deck.

Obfuscation!!! You need to remember that on flights like this a relief pilot is carried so maybe that gives them longer duty hours than the cc....again only guess work here!!!

Obfuscation - the Cape Town story is true. Cabin crew refused to tech stop resulting in a 24 hour delay.

Helli-Gurl - I knew you're posting was going to be a laugh when you said BASSA were too clever. Too stubborn perhaps, or too hard-nosed, but clever BASSA certainly ain't. After months of bluster and a pointed refusal to accept any sort of AMP, they went into the meeting full of fury and walked away several days later with exactly the same AMP as everyone else, meaning they delayed the payment to their members by almost a year for no reason. They also had a vote on possible industrial action and got less than a 20% return, and most of those were against industrial action. If you think "the CC only have to call "strike" and the airline grinds to a halt very rapidly" then you are deluding yourself. I don't think BASSA could manage a strike if their lives depended on it these days.

If you want to know what the CC have given then why not try to ask the CSD on the next A321 you are on? BASSA didn't like that move and were told where to stick it. Perhaps you'd like to have a good read of the new Worldwide Disruption Agreement which means BA gets far more out of the crew at the tiny cost of a hotel room if you're on early QRS. The tide has convincingly turned in the negotiations these days and BASSA is walking away from the table having made large sacrifices for virtually nothing in return.

Meanwhile BALPA members continue to enjoy the financial benefits of their pay benchmarking and restructuring exercise.:ok:

Roll on CARE pensions CM !:p

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

I hope Sarah and Helli-Gurl aren't representative of the intellect throughout BA staff.

Instead of statements such as you would be better advised to have meetings with all the interested unions and form a joint-committee with a mandate to tackle any attack on any staff.

The story about the briefing may be untrue, but he is capable of such behavior.

It is mind boggling that a potential victim of WW is proclaiming as he rides into town. Lambs...slaughter...It wont be pretty.

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

Helli-Gurl - Having worked for BA, the unions aren't as strong as you presume - look at the EG300 just flying through, despite lots of "We'll strike...they can't touch us" attitude. And despite the 97 strike fiasco, the new pay deal DID happen!

I think it naive for (BA) crews to believe they won't face a few more changes (like that of EG300). Between my period at BA (1990-1999) there had ultimately been huge changes. Experienced BA crews will tell you that they really work like dogs now and for pennies -although shinier pennies than most other carriers.
Does it not register that the cost of flying is getting lower and lower and so cuts have to happen and conditions change?

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

Well I was quietly eating a Lion Bar in T4 arrivals and saw Willie W talking to the cleaners outside the Gents loo and could lip read the words "sack" and "cabin crew" and "loads of them" and my sister knows this guy who works as a dishwasher at an undisclosed pub above T1 departures says he overheard a convo between Willie W and a man in a suit who were having the "buy one get one free" early bird special brekkie and they were talking about buying Fokkers and getting all WW to train up on them to do SH from NWI!!! It's true and I also heard from the woman downstairs whose cousin lives in Crawley that she saw Willie W outisde Concorde House in LGW dressed up in an EZY uniform having a quick fag with a load of crew and they were really ALIENS and there's this big conpiracy to get all BA EF CC to work for METROBUS as drivers and run the number 20 to HORLEY and BA are going to sell all their planes and Willie is going to take the money to buy MINIBUSES and expand the Fastlink bus service to THE MOON and that's true and with the money they make from selling London Eye they're going to buy a BROTHEL outside Zaragoza and all remaining CC (those not trained on Fokkers from NWI or working on the buses to Horley/the Moon) have to work as go-go dancers and/or lap dancers at that brothel which will be in direct competition from Easyjet's new range of low-cost whore joints to be branded as "EasySlut" and Zaragoza will be BA's flagship brothel, with The Rivers being converted into the UK's biggest ever CASINO with all check-in staff having to work there TOPLESS and that's true 'cause my mum heard this the other day when she was sitting on the loo on the flight to Manchester with these 2 gossiping CC talking about all of this in the galley after they had dished out congelled pizza slices.

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

Don't under-estimate Helli's connections within the industry !

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

:} :) :} :) :} :) :} :cool: :ok:

I LIKE IT !

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

Oh No, the gravy train finally is comming to a halt. What will the poor attendents do now????

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

Instead of making blase comments perhaps use some examples of:

a) Why it is a 'gravy train'.

and

b) Examples you have seen of how it is coming to a halt.

So far, these are what have been proposed to BASSA to look at in order to save GBP70M from in-flight services:

- Single fleet LGW
- 767 mixed flying for LHR eurofleet.
- Eurofleet adopting 'fixed links'.
- Eurofleet assisting with gate boarding.
- Disruption agreement for Eurofleet.

Non crew related:
- Reduction in product on shortes european sectors.
- Cancellation of BA bus services from crew report centre to central terminal area.

And at the very beginning of discussions:

- A limited number of ICC based crew on additional longhaul routes.
- A 'newer' new contract.

So I am sorry to disappoint, but nothing so far about slashing cabin crew pay, making them work like dogs, cleaning the a/c etc etc.

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

1.£35+ payment for a CAT turnaround
2.Double allowances paid to change trips during disruption on long haul.
3.Working one down payments on long haul.
4.Very generous box payments on long haul.
5.CSD and a Purser on 757

1. No more CATs when T5 opens.
2. WW disruption agreement removes the need.
3. see above
4. T5 report times reduced, shorter duty days, fewer box payments.
5. No CSD on a 321.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
 

My question regarding AMP is if it is so fair to all BA employees,why did BA feel it had to offer a £1000(before tax) bribe!!?.;)

Be it BA or any other company you have to doubt a policy like the above when money has to be offered!!.

Maybe it's just me or perhaps it was our 'caring' management team just being their normal,fair, all above board honest people we know they are:ugh: ......oh wait there goes another pig flying just past my window!!.:p .

WTDWL.