BA cabin crew strike ballot!
 

Having failed to agree with the company, BASSA and CC89 are to ballot their members for industrial action. The reason behind this is the company's insistance that the Jan 2004 pay award be linked with a new sickness policy. Cabin crew sickness is on average 22 days per year, however BA have little compassion for granting any requests for days off, etc...

Currently, many flights are being cancelled or have premium cabins closed due to a shortage of cabin crew - due to high sickness levels, poor morale and the fact that they are only able to train 90 new cabin crew per month; which barely covers the number of crew going on maternity leave!

But have these levels increased at all recently? I very much doubt it. The cabin crew shortage is actually down to poor planning. They cannot train up quickly enough, because they have allowed levels to get too low before they started recruitment again.

They may have assumed the cabin crew would sign up to the new AMP, and sickness levels would go down. But that was a silly assumption.

GS Alpha
There may be an element of truth in that, however, the real underlying problems are:

1. the average 22.9 days per year sickness taken by Cabin Crew (source BASSA) with the resultant levels of standby crewing required - Longhaul and Shorthaul.

2. the archaic rostering agreements (esp in shorthaul) which means they will not stay on an aircraft at LHR on arrival to go somewhere else but need to go and rest for at least 90 minutes, and frequently 3+ hours [and getting paid up to £50 each if they reduce below 2 hours!]. This means if they are late they frequently lose subsequent sectors, again requiring extra standby crews. [If you go into the Compass Centre you will see about 100 cabin crew sitting around].

This means their productivity averages 40 flight hours per month in Shorthaul vs 75 for pilot colleagues.

Two of my last three flights from Manchester (1730) back to Dusseldorf within the last two months have been cancelled . The last I believe due to cabin crew sickness . It was due to depart at 1730 from MAN and was not cancelled until 1850 and we were put on the 1930 flight , fine BUT . It was around eating time , BA wouldn't give any info and I knew that if we went to the restaurant and ordered food the flight would be called , so stayed hungry for the bread roll later . The way for a premium airline (self sold) to win customers , NOT.

It's worth pointing out that this extremely low productivity coupled with the very high pay many old contract cabin crew are on (still the majority of crew) means that cabin crew are on a higher pay/hour than most shorthaul and longhaul pilots! It takes 2 weeks to train a cabin crew member.

I totally understand what you are saying TopBunk, and I wish things were not like this. But unless there has suddenly been an unexpected increase in sickness etc (which I do not believe), then the reason for the lack of cabin crew is purely the fault of the managers and planners. They know the system they are working with.

Personally, I think they assumed they would be able to push the cabin crew into signing up to the deal before now and so left the recruitment until the last possible moment. Someone counted their chickens before they had hatched, and that was a mistake. They are so desperate for crew now, that I hear they are taking anyone who gets as far as interview (even though they were rejected at this stage initially).

As for sorting out the inefficiencies within BA, I don't think it is ever going to happen, because we will be bankrupt long before.

Maybe a new CEO might be able to fix the problem long term ..... how about Willie Walsh? ...... ;)

I think TopBunk has hit the nail squarely on the head. 40 flight hours per month, due to inefficient turn-rounds, and archaic industrial agreements, mean we deserve to go bankrupt. If it weren't for the LHR slots it might even be Rod's preferred method of dealing with the problem.

I say let them strike - give me a tabard and I'll perform their safety role, and service - I'd even manage a smile which might shock some of our regular passengers.

If you paid me the same as a CSD, I'd be happy with the pay rise.

Rod - if you're reading this, get back to work - and please sort out this f**king mess.

I would love to have a good working relationship with our Cabin Service colleagues - but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the Nanny State that BA provides for them.

BA is talking about lowing the gear on approach 300' lower and saving a hundred grand a year in fuel bills. I say sort out Cabin Services, get rid of CSDs and save several million. Fire Mike Street and Joy Horden and bring the lot back under the umbrella of Flight Operations, save several more million in pointless middle management.

Let the sanctimonious rebukes begin . . .

Lord help 'em, I hope this thread fizzles out before BA's dirty washing is fully aired again...

Meanwhile, I offer a cryptic clue for a money saving scheme to the current or indeed the future BA CEO:

A recent BA 747-400 tech log entry read as follows.... "CSD's office seat worn" ......take note Willy, and learn.

nurj

BA's productivity levels are renowned for being dire, but has anything changed? No. No frills airlines are coming out way above "established" carriers, like BA, when it comes to profitability and productivity and even customer satisfaction. BUT, my opinion is don't kick the cabin crew and pilots at BA because it is the system that is at fault and the "system" allows them to get away with privileges that ultimately are running the company into the ground.

Just tossing a coin to see whether my flight with BA will be canx because of the crew! Heads or tails?

What BA really should have done is train up large numbers of CC six months ago, then let the old hags go on strike...sack the lot (selective termination, on a large scale), then hire new faces.
'Tis called....customer satisfaction.

Oh yes, the boys go too, if they create 'problems'.

Be very carreful when making rash statements about sacking 'old hags' and 'old' contract' cabin crew. You may have a point but......
How many 'old contract' 'high earning' pilots are in BA today??
Plenty!
How many guys and girls out there with their nice new ATPL's who would pay for their type ratings and jump at the chance of working for BA for less than half current rates?
Plenty!

Think about it.

I see it's all over now....BA have caved in yet again....no doubt lots of bottles of nicked champagne will be toasted tonight.

You can be sure the cabin crew will be in his sites as will the highly unionised ground operations staff. With Walsh in charge there will be some BIG changes at BA for some groups of staff and I suspect he will not cave in as easily.

Actually, FYI, cabin crew sickness is well under budget....

Many crew actually come in sick because they are too scared to ring in sick.

They have recruited too late into an exodus of crew leaving,going on maternity,retirements and so on....

STOP blaming the cabin crew.

Perhaps if you were down the back of the aircraft with a host of germs,viruses and bacteria floating around , and you were fatigued from your 50-60hour week,you would succumb to something and be off too ?

All this cc bashing is ridiculous, as they who bash really don't know what they are talking about..... grow up.

CC sickness is well under budget ? Compared to whom or what. That said the whole of the company is still showing very high levels of casual sickness. As someone has stated the BA management seem to cave in on every challenge.

I wonder if Willie Walsh will be able to sort out the mess that we are still in and will get deeper into as T5 approaches.

Anti-ice, it's not pilots who average 22.9 sick days per year - who else should we blame?

OK, I can hear you shouting this at your PC screen, BA are to blame for not having a better ROSTARing system.

I'm sorry, but the system at BA is far better than VS or BD, and their sickness levels are far lower - as is their pay.

What a pathetic retort - "grow up."

I'm looking forward to Willy joining us - I'd give up 10% of my pay to get rid of CSDs, have 2 pursers on a LH aircraft, 1 on SH. Maybe then we could compete and have an airline of which we could be proud.

75% customer satisfaction . . . you know why? The CSDs fill in the forms themselves - caught in the act!

I can't tell you how pleased I am to be flying with the new crew who have worked for other airlines - they're a breath of fresh air. Friendly, fun and they appreciate the benefits of working for BA - how long before they believe the BASSA propaganda that 22.9 sick day per year is acceptable?

Of which I'd wager at least 20 hours is spent sitting around in Compass or CAT or on a bus and not actually doing anything productive. The 60 hour week is a favourite quote, but the whole picture is that the maximum monthly hours are the restricting factor so if you did happen to work a 60 hour week you could look forward to taking it easy for the next three weeks.

Well I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know that the company has backed down and our backdated pay from JAN 04 will be included in our MAR pay packets The issue of EG300 is no longer attached and wil be resolved seperately.

Well I'm sure you'll be pleased when Willy starts and he takes you luddites on - if he doesn't we won't survive, can't you grasp that?

Benchmarking? Compare yourselves to other airlines - you're paid 50% more, but you don't add 50% to the bottom line.

VS pilots similar pay to BA,
VS cabin crew half BA LH cabin crew.

What about KLM, Air France, Lufty? You're paid nearly double them - and they're not a miserable bunch whingers.

With all your MBT days, perhaps you could put together a business model on how we're supposed to compete.

BA couldn't sign you up to an AMP, as they're short of crew anyway and couldn't aford to weaken the weakest link further.

Go back to the shadows - PPRuNe - something about Pilots Forum in there.

My general experience with BA I hate to say as pax is pretty poor, they treat passengers with contempt and fellow staff even worse.

I had cause to complain recently as a meal I had pre ordered wasn't onboard leaving me unable to eat anything substantial for 10 hours, at first they thought I was a member of staff on a staff ticket, which I wasn't, I was a full fare passenger, whilst they thought I was a member of staff, I was treated like complete and utter sh*te....inexcusable really!

Once they'd realised they'd f*cked up, I still didn't get an apology, went all sheepish and I got the "it's not my fault so it's unfair of you to complain routine" so I was in a no-win situation!

Never been treated so shabbily by any other airline, not even Ryan Air!!!

Anyway my point is what hope have they got if they're prepared to treat their fellow colleagues so awfully let alone passengers, and why do the Virgin CC always look happy in their work for half the pay and dont seem (and I dont know what goes on behind the scenes, but I do know a few virgin CC) to bitch half as much. The job is hard enough at times as it is so why do they do it?

Here's a quote:

" If we are to survive the winter, we must cut our costs dramatically. "

This was the BEA Chairman in his Christmas message the 1947 edition of the internal magazine.

British Airways shorthaul operation has a long legacy of high costs to overcome that has not been resolved since then and I doubt anyone here on PPRUNE has the solution - although there are already many offers!

Nothing that BA managers or staff do (or refuse to do) short of closing the shorthaul operation down can ever be as powerful as the market forces that decide whether or not passengers will fly with BA. Passengers vote with their feet at the slightest provocation but over time, will drift back again.

It is price, the schedule and convenience that makes people come back to BA and, dare I say it, the service on board which, compared to some other high-profile carriers, including oneworld members, is often a breath of fresh air.

So for sure, the airline will continue to introduce productivity measures and staff will continue to resist. But even if they take their eye off the ball and ignore the travelling public whilst squabbling amongst themselves, travellers who defect will eventually drift back once the airline resolves it's latest spat.

The question is will this be in enough numbers and in a short enough time to keep the shorthaul operation viable and will the end result justify the squabbles?

Perhaps the answer is to halt the shorthaul operation, take a hit on the profit, make the productivity changes they want, put the rosters they want in place, change salary structures and career paths, remove some senior CC positions and relaunch as a low-cost full service carrier and restart operations.

Either way, passengers will defect but this way, the end result may well be better for everyone. ;)

The problem is that the union agreements and the management are both archaic state monsters of the past – the implementation of policies that monitor and support staff in equal measures are essential to bringing BA into the modern world.

The ability of cabin crew, management, drivers and other support staff to maintain their privileged positions of relatively high pay for the industry and a large number of staff – where others have managed easily with fewer – is simply a product of that heritage and continue to influence the thinking that perpetrates what the cabin crew on this thread write.

This has continued as the company – though forced on European routes to face low cost competition and up the game accordingly – still has a relatively protected position competitively, as no other can hope to compete with the route structure offered by BA to any London-based business. Businesses would not otherwise choose to fly BA these days with the service levels offered in many cases.

That is changing slowly, but don’t doubt that it will change faster once the EU renegotiate to remove Bermuda II.

The cabin crew ballot is quite frankly greedy – HOWEVER against the background of a management system that is ineffective and cannot sell policies such as the sickness monitoring to the staff effectively; their position is therefore entirely understandable.

An incorporation of cabin crew management with flight crew management is entirely sensible to reduce headcount at management level and enhance management of all crew with manageers who are effective for all staff, thereby eliminating any infighting between these two departments whose safety critical function is eroded by constant bickering and misunderstanding of each other.

Face facts though – with higher fuel costs in the future, the wages paid for what is effectively a job that can be done (legally) with just a few days training are excessive. The premium on top of that for ensuring a good cabin service above competitors and London weighting should not create a package anywhere near as high as it is.

Cabin crew / flight crew pay comparisons are irrelevant, as the latter requires 18 months training and in these days significant capital outlay.

The real comparison is with ground jobs that require erratic working hours in customer service roles with a strong element of responsibility. In this case grossly overpaid is not unjust. How can pay that – incorporating allowances and flight & duty pay – exceeds that of many professionals and graduates be justified? Recruitment policy should perhaps be reconsidered, when one experiences the appalling service levels of particular staff across all cabins – that is management’s problem again however.

All those are moot points however where the management and staff cannot work together. Blame never entirely lies with any one side.

Rainbow said some cabin attendants at British Airways earn more than some pilots.
Is that really true?
I can't believe people who push trolleys are paid more than the pilots flying the aeroplane?
As a regular passenger and BA shareholder, I think that's bizarre and stupid. How did BA get into such a mess?

Average of 22.9 days sick a year!!!
That's the equivalent of more than a month a year off for so-called sickness. Sounds more like ripping the company off to me.

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Rainboe - Correct. - If you train them for 24 hours a day, seven days a week and cut out some of the important drills required by JAR.


Petitfromage - Air conditioning is not the problem. Cabin crew members can come within a metre of up to 800 individuals per day! I've lost count of the amount of passengers with viruses, colds and coldsores who've boarded an aircraft, yet most airlines forbid crew operating with colds, flu, coldsores, rashes, within 24 hours of vomiting, diarrhoea, etc. They get an infection then can't fly if affected by the antibiotics prescribed. Its also a physical job and injuries often occur meaning they cannot fly, but can work in the office. All the above is perfectly fine if you're brave enough to struggle into an office, on the ground you dont know when youve got blocked ears!

Crew need to be physically fit, be legally fit to handle food under health and safety regulations, carry out medical procedures and not sniff all over pasengers, in their drinks, their food, etc.

Flying effects your body more at altitude too.

Flight crew are likely to go through some of these problems, but with respect dont have to face the passengers or handle food.

Also if a BA Shorthaul LHR cabin crew member goes sick on the last day of a working block, then has three days off, and phones in fit the day before they are due back, thats FOUR days off sick.
Days off are counted as sick days, 'weekends' off in offices arent.

How long do charters take? Post a figure anyone in the know if you have it.

So do nurses, and all of their charges are actually sick as well...

I don't know many people who are either productive or come in when sick on antibiotics in an office environment - others don't want to catch it, and you can't concentrate on office work either.

With all respect, two days off around a weekend counts as four days sick in the office as well. I cannot comment on your company agreement you mention above, but statutory calculations of sick days in the office are very similar.

Stop making excuses...

Same deal with sickness for pilots. If you go sick then you are classed as sick until you return, even if you weren't rostered any duties. Yet we still manage to be sick half as often as crew, even with more stringent medical requirements. I defy anyone to claim there is not a culture of 'sickies' amongst BA cabin crew. I know it. You know it. Every CC in BA knows somebody who does it, often on a regular basis. The question is how to tackle. EG300 is a blunt and ill-conceived tool, but tackle that culture they must.

Of course theres the other issue with the fear of taking time off sick, or losing allowances, leading to crew coming into work and spreading it around.

Edited to comment on Re-Heats reply:

Charter training is usually 4 - 6 weeks. Scheduled airlines about the same. Longest I know of was 7 weeks but that was a start up.
Core legal elements are SEP (safety, emergency, equipment, rules, etc). Then aviation medicine and service training are offered. Airlines add in anything else they feel is fundamental to the business.

But then the crew are only there just to serve tea and coffee isn't that right Re-Heat? Hence why they only need 2 weeks. I look forward to seeing vending machines on crewless flights in the future. I'm sure the CAA can bend the regs a little.

An ear infection isnt contageuos as far as I know but antibiotics are used to treat it. Infections occur from initial colds, etc. BA rule is that you must take them for 24 hours clear of duty then if no side effects, you may fly.

Like Carnage, I know of crew who go sick for fun, unfortunately they create people like me that feel they have to make excuses for a sprained foot or a bunged up ear.

Rant over.


:\

That was the proposal back in the '90's when the franchise agreements were the big thing. The idea was all of the short-haul and feeder services would be operated by franchise or partner airlines, leaving BA mainline to concentrate on the long-haul side. Wonder what happened to that idea?

Anyway, back on track. If the CC unions think that 22.9 days sick per year is acceptable then they are living in a different world. Sick leave is not part of your annual entitlement, contrary to what some people seem to think. :mad:

Shut the airline down, new contracts for C.C. take it or leave it!!
I can bet all the C.C will take it.
Look what happened at Swissair (Swiss).

Neither said nor thought that; it goes quite against my prior comments on integration of the whole crew to ensure safety-related cooperation.

There is however no legally-required CAA position-holder in cabin crew management over cabin crew who is required to be cabin crew, nor individual licence as such. Perhaps that is the answer to re-instill the safety-related nature of all.

4 weeks training is what most will get in any role in any large company, be it legally required or not. That rather reinforces my point on the transferability of your skills.

It would seem that the only people who support BA cabin crew claims are.....BA cabin crew.

Certainly the BA flight deck (who sometimes earn less) or other airline cabin crew who know just how quickly replacements can be trained and in the job, don't.

Sounds like they should make hay whilst the sun shines...and start collecting four leaf clovers!

I see BACX have inherited BA mainline hosties! Look whats happened there. Profitable franchises bought by BA and F~~~d up!!

Get rid of em!!

Pay them the industry going rate and allow the airline to compete, especially on short haul where competition is red hot.

That applies to CC, Dispatches, Tug Drivers, Check-in staff etc etc.

There is no room for hangers on who think they have a right to a job that pays more than some of our countries nurses for example.

Sort em out Willie!!

Paid more than nurses heh?

(Dont be stupid.)

Long haul cabin crew at BA can get £1700 pcm in allowances alone.

Add that to a basic salary and they take home more than doctors.

A CSD will NETT £3300 per month .

( for ref; hospital doctors will not make that unless they make it (after 10 years) to consultant level which is a whole different kettle of fish)

Shuttleworth. You are talking out of your A***.

I am a CSD, full time with many years of valued service.

I have never nett £3300 a month.

In fact this year I have only just gone into 40% tax.

Just work that out for yourself, either Gordon Brown isn't earning a penny out of me or I'm taking home a fraction of what you think.

glos

Don't know about the 3300 fig but the 40% tax issue is a little misleading so so much cash is earnt tax free given the nature of allowances.

The only elements that aren't taxed are 64% of meal allowances which are currently hit by the low dollar rate to the pound and DOA's which is only £7.25 a day.

All airlines in the UK have tax reliefs.

Hey glos, you say "I am a CSD, full time with many years of valued service"....

....valued by whom?

Glos, I will not call you a liar but I think conservative with the truth is more like it. BA CSD DOES GET MORE THAN HE AND THE REST OF HIS TROLLY PUSHING MOB ARE WORTH.

Who would have thought you'd get to be a higher rate tax payer for handing our customer feedback forms and eating first food, my-oh-my you're hard done by. Try comparing what you do to our undervalued nurese/teachers/soldiers/sailors/airmen - I doubt they come anywhere near paying 40% tax even after many years valued service.

Well said sevenforeseven.