"Best passenger..."
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A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
If I understand correctly, pilots perform checklists because even though they may know by heart the procedures, the checklist serves to check and remind and establish a pattern for subsequent procedures. The same is true for the verbal briefing on taxi out for an abort or divert: It re-enforces agreed procedure and understanding.
ukhomerj - wouldn't it be easier to just watch the damn thing? What's 60 seconds out of your life? When I position with pilots on commercial flights, they watch the briefing, even on their own aircraft: It's a courtesy thing - sets an example to others around. Also, for the reasons above it can be useful.
Don't get me wrong, you can do what you want during the demo (so long as your newspaper or conversation don't obstruct others), and who knows maybe you are as knowledgeable about SEP procedures on that type and carrier as you believe. It just seems to me that for reasons of common sense, courtesy and professionalism you might as well watch rather than try and buck the system. It just seems to me to be such a terribly small imposition to place on you, but hey, who knows? I rarely see it from the passenger side.
If I understand correctly, pilots perform checklists because even though they may know by heart the procedures, the checklist serves to check and remind and establish a pattern for subsequent procedures. The same is true for the verbal briefing on taxi out for an abort or divert: It re-enforces agreed procedure and understanding.
ukhomerj - wouldn't it be easier to just watch the damn thing? What's 60 seconds out of your life? When I position with pilots on commercial flights, they watch the briefing, even on their own aircraft: It's a courtesy thing - sets an example to others around. Also, for the reasons above it can be useful.
Don't get me wrong, you can do what you want during the demo (so long as your newspaper or conversation don't obstruct others), and who knows maybe you are as knowledgeable about SEP procedures on that type and carrier as you believe. It just seems to me that for reasons of common sense, courtesy and professionalism you might as well watch rather than try and buck the system. It just seems to me to be such a terribly small imposition to place on you, but hey, who knows? I rarely see it from the passenger side.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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You know? I always listen to the safety announcements (even though I could do it in stereo with the crew after so many sectors) - but I always put down the paper/PPL texts etc etc because it is PLAIN GOOD MANNERS to give attention to someone who is talking to you..... especially when they are not trying to sell you something, but to give you information that could one awful day save your skin....
Perhaps manners are dying out. Pity.
TA
Perhaps manners are dying out. Pity.
TA
Prince of Darkness
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Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, nevertheless.
All this talk of safety briefings raises a question with me, especially the bit about ditching and flotation devices and life vests. When was the last ditching in the sea where pax were successfully evac'd in life vests? I can't recall a story on this - only unsuccessful ditchings? Anyone care to comment?
Ozzy
All this talk of safety briefings raises a question with me, especially the bit about ditching and flotation devices and life vests. When was the last ditching in the sea where pax were successfully evac'd in life vests? I can't recall a story on this - only unsuccessful ditchings? Anyone care to comment?
Ozzy
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I have only seen one incident of an aircraft ditching in the sea.
It was some years ago, and the plane for whatever reason, I dont remember, ditched parallel to a beach in the Caribean somewhere. It dirched very slowly indeed, almost in slow motion.
It was all filmed by a sun bather. Other sunbathers swam out to help.
Dont remember if there were any casualties.
It was some years ago, and the plane for whatever reason, I dont remember, ditched parallel to a beach in the Caribean somewhere. It dirched very slowly indeed, almost in slow motion.
It was all filmed by a sun bather. Other sunbathers swam out to help.
Dont remember if there were any casualties.
Prince of Darkness
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There is a movie on the web somewhere of a, I think it's a 757, maybe 767, ditching in the sea due to a hijacking - think it ran out of fuel. Many fatalities, don't know if there was time to brace - question still stands tho'
Ozzy
Ozzy
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It was a 767, Ethiopian hijacking, most killed (many due premature inflation of lifejackets inside the a/c) - filmed from the beach.
Last premeditated ditching I know of was a DC-9 in Carribean some years ago - some survivors.
It is more than possible that water survival eqpt will be required even if not flying oceanic. Many runways project into oceans and rivers - a/c can come to earth anywhere inc. rivers and lakes.
Last premeditated ditching I know of was a DC-9 in Carribean some years ago - some survivors.
It is more than possible that water survival eqpt will be required even if not flying oceanic. Many runways project into oceans and rivers - a/c can come to earth anywhere inc. rivers and lakes.
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That's right HKL,
It was a B767-200ER of Ethiopian Airlines and it was hijacked shortly after take off from Addis Ababa en-route to Nairobi.
The 3 Ethopian hijackers forced the Captain to change course several times.
The aircraft eventually ran out of fuel and as a result was forced to ditch into the sea about 200ft from the coast of Moroni,the capital of the Comores Islands.
All 3 hijackers died as they were reportedly standing up when the aircraft hit the water.
Sadly, 10 crew also died,as did 117 out of the 160 passengers.
gladrags
It was a B767-200ER of Ethiopian Airlines and it was hijacked shortly after take off from Addis Ababa en-route to Nairobi.
The 3 Ethopian hijackers forced the Captain to change course several times.
The aircraft eventually ran out of fuel and as a result was forced to ditch into the sea about 200ft from the coast of Moroni,the capital of the Comores Islands.
All 3 hijackers died as they were reportedly standing up when the aircraft hit the water.
Sadly, 10 crew also died,as did 117 out of the 160 passengers.
gladrags
Last edited by gladrags; 26th Apr 2003 at 06:52.
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Homer,
regardless of how many times you fly on a particular aircraft, still pay attention. As Tight slot said, even crew who actually work on the aircraft watch the safety demo when they are positioning- even pilots.
When I was CC it really bugged me to see pax reading whilst I was showing the demo. It's very rude!!!
Brgds Millno
regardless of how many times you fly on a particular aircraft, still pay attention. As Tight slot said, even crew who actually work on the aircraft watch the safety demo when they are positioning- even pilots.
When I was CC it really bugged me to see pax reading whilst I was showing the demo. It's very rude!!!
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2 british women survived this crash, and subsequently told BA SEP instructors that paying attention to the safety instructions, particularly seatbelt/life jacket and brace position, along with deternination 2 survive- saved their lives. How many regular pax really know quickest exits? Can U undo Ur seatbelt with UR eyes closed? Find UR lifejacket?
None of the pax onboard knew they were going 2 crash, and the hijackers didn't believe the pilot when he said they were running out of fuel.
Always keep UR seatbelt fastened when seated, like pilots do. Always strap in small children, even if U edit VOGUE. Always eat UR pudding first, never knowing when U'll finish the rest of UR meal.
My humour is my way of dealing with the fact that it could be me in that situation. Be safe. I will remove the link if it is considered inappropriate.
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safety demo.
From a pax perspective, the safety demo is so often done all wrong. Many airlines present it as this stand alone activity which isn't an inherent aspect of the flight.
Virgin Blue's is the best i have seen at circumventing this, as the demo is incorporated more subtly into the welcome aboard announcements.
However, I would question the use of the term "disco lighting" to refer to the emergency exit and aisle lighting, as it assumes that everyone on board a) speaks sufficient English to understand the duplicity of this term and b) has prior flying experience/knowledge. However, this is probably just a part of this airline's attempt to strive for 'cute' and 'fresh', which, in my opinion, simply results in 'ditz'. While hearing announcements such as 'ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls' and 'thanks for flying my big, red, shiny toy', may engender a positive reaction in some pax, to me it is just cringe worthy.
Back on topic, has anyone ever been scowled at by the f/a while watching the demo? You know, the look which says 'I am embarrassed enough to be doing this naff demo now keep your eyes firmly planted on the seatback in front until the pain of it all is over'.
Virgin Blue's is the best i have seen at circumventing this, as the demo is incorporated more subtly into the welcome aboard announcements.
However, I would question the use of the term "disco lighting" to refer to the emergency exit and aisle lighting, as it assumes that everyone on board a) speaks sufficient English to understand the duplicity of this term and b) has prior flying experience/knowledge. However, this is probably just a part of this airline's attempt to strive for 'cute' and 'fresh', which, in my opinion, simply results in 'ditz'. While hearing announcements such as 'ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls' and 'thanks for flying my big, red, shiny toy', may engender a positive reaction in some pax, to me it is just cringe worthy.
Back on topic, has anyone ever been scowled at by the f/a while watching the demo? You know, the look which says 'I am embarrassed enough to be doing this naff demo now keep your eyes firmly planted on the seatback in front until the pain of it all is over'.
Prince of Darkness
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Thanks Golden Runways that's the incident I was thinking of. I DO pay attention to the safety briefing even though I have heard it probably 6 or 8 times that month, and I admit the first thing I do is check out the nearest exit to my seat. But, I still have a hard time believing that an aircraft could survive a ditching, unless you count "Airport '77" a 'course. To me, lifejackets and seat cushions aint going to help much. Reminds me of the Billy Connolly routine about the Jobee Weecha. "If ye're heading towards Manchester at 500 mph, vertically, ask the captain to aim for a puddle..."
Ozzy
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Well it looks as though I have been rightly told off about the safety briefing. As someone mentioned, what is 60 seconds out of my time.
So, as I am away on my holibobs on Tuesday, I will pay full attention to the brief, and whenever I fly.
I didnt want to give the impression that I knew it all, or wasnt interested etc, but that must be how it comes across from the CC side I suppose.
So, I consider myself well and truly told off, and will not ignore the briefings ever again.
Kindest reagrds to you all.
So, as I am away on my holibobs on Tuesday, I will pay full attention to the brief, and whenever I fly.
I didnt want to give the impression that I knew it all, or wasnt interested etc, but that must be how it comes across from the CC side I suppose.
So, I consider myself well and truly told off, and will not ignore the briefings ever again.
Kindest reagrds to you all.
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I had these mid thirty year old guys on my BNE to Emerald flight the other evening. I was doing my thing with the Safety Demo and the Life Jacket and these two thought it was pretty funny. (Now I can understand that it may be a little funny to see a full on safety demo - life jacket included - on a Dash 8 36 seater departing for the desert, so initially I smiled politely back at them and went on with what has to be done). By the end of the demo they were in loud fits of laughter - I am talking tears rolling down cheeks! Well, I juust happened to find this a little embarassing (humilating) and VERY distracting to my job.
Come service time, the ring leader then asked "Could you get me a VB, darl?" I said "Certainly Sir" (still smiling, still nice) "I will be RIGHT BACK!" Needless to say, everyone else was slurping on their second round of cold drinks and this rude man got his beer (singular not plural) at top of descent.
Moral of the story is: Never be mean to the lady in charge of the Beer cart.
Come service time, the ring leader then asked "Could you get me a VB, darl?" I said "Certainly Sir" (still smiling, still nice) "I will be RIGHT BACK!" Needless to say, everyone else was slurping on their second round of cold drinks and this rude man got his beer (singular not plural) at top of descent.
Moral of the story is: Never be mean to the lady in charge of the Beer cart.
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Well, this forum allows you to say what you think, so here's my ten pence worth....:
I'm only a "low on the PPL totem pole" pilot who also travels Long Haul at least once per month..normally on BA 747-400's.
I have a fair idea of what the end result of a ditching will be in one of these aircraft. I also have a fair idea of the statistical likelyhood. However, should the worst happen, I am not in any way consoled by those lovely videos showing nice people stepping of the side of the A/C into what is presumably a beautiful Carribean sea. I say presumably because we never see the sea! The CAA does not require any formal testing of such an escape. They do however presume (as with evacs) that the plane is full of able-bodied people who have landed on a "moderately calm" sea and calmly left their seats in a sensible order....folks, us grown-ups just know it ain't going to be like that.
Oxygen masks... yep, needs to be shown even though most people won't have a clue in a real emergency. As for "breathing normally"....hmmm.....
Yes, I always use my seatbelt in flight...that makes real sense. I always check the exit options but the reality is that most of the other drills, like a number of things in flying, are carry backs to halcyon days.
Having said all that, I think it's still polite to show interest in the video and CC demos....it's their job and they have to do it. It's the CAA who need to get their act together on this one.
Anyway, that's what I think...... so there!
I'm only a "low on the PPL totem pole" pilot who also travels Long Haul at least once per month..normally on BA 747-400's.
I have a fair idea of what the end result of a ditching will be in one of these aircraft. I also have a fair idea of the statistical likelyhood. However, should the worst happen, I am not in any way consoled by those lovely videos showing nice people stepping of the side of the A/C into what is presumably a beautiful Carribean sea. I say presumably because we never see the sea! The CAA does not require any formal testing of such an escape. They do however presume (as with evacs) that the plane is full of able-bodied people who have landed on a "moderately calm" sea and calmly left their seats in a sensible order....folks, us grown-ups just know it ain't going to be like that.
Oxygen masks... yep, needs to be shown even though most people won't have a clue in a real emergency. As for "breathing normally"....hmmm.....
Yes, I always use my seatbelt in flight...that makes real sense. I always check the exit options but the reality is that most of the other drills, like a number of things in flying, are carry backs to halcyon days.
Having said all that, I think it's still polite to show interest in the video and CC demos....it's their job and they have to do it. It's the CAA who need to get their act together on this one.
Anyway, that's what I think...... so there!
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Hi strake, have read your post with interest.
Always pleasant to read that you respect the cabin crew, I like your attitude.
You seem to say:
Seat belt operation and awareness of exit location are usefull. Most of the other drills are not and are merely left-overs fromt he past.
Do I understand you correctly?
And if so, would you care to explain in a bit more detail which drills you have in mind and why you deem them useless?
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I am genuinely interested in your ideas and in your reasons for coming to that conclusion. What is your knowledge base, what experience or schooling do you have to back up this claim?
I admit that like you, I have wondered about all those happy people disambarking a squeeky clean wreck dressed in their impeccably business suits while elegantly sliding down a wing.
I have on sleepless layovers pondered the probabilty of me in my high heels tottering over the windswept wet wing of a ditched 747-300 with my little lanyard to attach it to the attachment point, thus providing a handhold for pax evacuating on the high seas. And no, I never saw it as very feasible that I would manage.
But............ a large part of my day-job involves talking into that mike and getting the pax to look at our boring little sketch with the yellow bits of plastic. The reason I put so much efforrt into getting them to watch is not because the law wants us to a safety demo.
It is because of what I have read over the course of many years of being an FA, the incident and accident reports I have studied, the interviews with crash survivors I have seen, all seem to point in the direction of the fact that the safety drills can save lives.
The lives of those pax who pay attention.
strake, please enlighten me!
Always pleasant to read that you respect the cabin crew, I like your attitude.
You seem to say:
Seat belt operation and awareness of exit location are usefull. Most of the other drills are not and are merely left-overs fromt he past.
Do I understand you correctly?
And if so, would you care to explain in a bit more detail which drills you have in mind and why you deem them useless?
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I am genuinely interested in your ideas and in your reasons for coming to that conclusion. What is your knowledge base, what experience or schooling do you have to back up this claim?
I admit that like you, I have wondered about all those happy people disambarking a squeeky clean wreck dressed in their impeccably business suits while elegantly sliding down a wing.
I have on sleepless layovers pondered the probabilty of me in my high heels tottering over the windswept wet wing of a ditched 747-300 with my little lanyard to attach it to the attachment point, thus providing a handhold for pax evacuating on the high seas. And no, I never saw it as very feasible that I would manage.But............ a large part of my day-job involves talking into that mike and getting the pax to look at our boring little sketch with the yellow bits of plastic. The reason I put so much efforrt into getting them to watch is not because the law wants us to a safety demo.
It is because of what I have read over the course of many years of being an FA, the incident and accident reports I have studied, the interviews with crash survivors I have seen, all seem to point in the direction of the fact that the safety drills can save lives.
The lives of those pax who pay attention.
strake, please enlighten me!
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Hey Forty - our procedures have us despatching an able bodied pax onto the wing with the escape strap, rather than sending a crew member (naturally there will be a lengthy queue of volunteers) - know which company I'd rather work for!
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Tight, we solved the problem by going over to an all -400 fleet.
No more Dying Swan on Wing for us.
Errmmm.... nope, don't think we're hiring at the moment.
But I'm sure they'll look at yer CV.
No more Dying Swan on Wing for us.
Errmmm.... nope, don't think we're hiring at the moment.
But I'm sure they'll look at yer CV.