Nobody in the overwing exit rows
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 55
Likes: 13
From: Spain
Nobody in the overwing exit rows
(Pax here. I posted this in the SLF forum, but the only answers I got were from people wanting to discuss having to pay for the exit row. My question is not about that, but rather about having the exit rows unoccupied. So I am posting here. I hope this is allowed.)
On 28JAN I boarded AirAsia QZ528 from Jakarta CGK to Brunei BWN. The plane was an A320-214. I'm 1m94/6ft4 and had not booked an exit row seat, but as I passed the exit row on the way to my assigned seat I noticed that although we were at least halfway through boarding there was as yet nobody sitting in any of the overwing exit rows (12/13, A–F). I asked the cabin attendant standing there if the flight was full and he said "No, not too full", so I replied with a smile, "If you need anyone for the exit row, let me know". This often works like a charm on European airlines - I often get invited to sit in an exit row seat once boarding is complete, and occasionally this happens even if there is already one pax there. He smiled and nodded. I took my assigned seat in row 20, but when boarding was completed nobody came to ask me to move. So I just assumed they had enough people, or perhaps had "upgraded" someone sitting closer to the exit rows than me.
About an hour into the flight, with my knees sticking into the back of the chair in front (whose occupant also kept trying to recline it), I went to the lavatory. There was a drinks cart behind me so I walked to the front of the plane. As I passed the overwing exits I noticed, to my surprise, that all 12 exit row seats were empty. On coming back from the lav I decided to sit in one of those seats for a bit, to give my knees a rest. After about 10 minutes a different cabin attendant came along. She told me that I had to pay the extra-legroom seat fee (which I didn't want to do), or move. Fair enough, but before I got up, I asked her why there had been nobody sitting in the exit row for takeoff (I was sure that four people had not disappeared from the four 3-seat exit rows). She was a little defensive and said "It's not an ICAO requirement", and then "it's not our company policy". I didn't argue further and went back to my assigned seat. I didn't observe any musical chairs going on later, so I assume that we landed with nobody in the overwing exit rows either.
My question for flight or cabin crew is: Is this allowed? Who makes the rules on this? The only reason I can think of for an airline choosing to have this policy is to ensure that 100% of pax who occupy an overwing exit row seat have paid for it, thus deterring the occasional freeloader like me from thinking that there might be a chance of a free upgrade. Again, I completely understand that I was told not to move there during level flight, but in the event of an evacuation having nobody sitting next to any of the four overwing exit doors would surely cost a substantial amount of time, as pax who have not had any instruction in the use of the exit doors (and yes, I know the "instruction" is often minimal) try to sort themselves out so that four people are assigned to open the overwing exits, and maybe don't check for fire outside either. Still, maybe things are different in Asia.
Thanks for any light that you can shed on this.
On 28JAN I boarded AirAsia QZ528 from Jakarta CGK to Brunei BWN. The plane was an A320-214. I'm 1m94/6ft4 and had not booked an exit row seat, but as I passed the exit row on the way to my assigned seat I noticed that although we were at least halfway through boarding there was as yet nobody sitting in any of the overwing exit rows (12/13, A–F). I asked the cabin attendant standing there if the flight was full and he said "No, not too full", so I replied with a smile, "If you need anyone for the exit row, let me know". This often works like a charm on European airlines - I often get invited to sit in an exit row seat once boarding is complete, and occasionally this happens even if there is already one pax there. He smiled and nodded. I took my assigned seat in row 20, but when boarding was completed nobody came to ask me to move. So I just assumed they had enough people, or perhaps had "upgraded" someone sitting closer to the exit rows than me.
About an hour into the flight, with my knees sticking into the back of the chair in front (whose occupant also kept trying to recline it), I went to the lavatory. There was a drinks cart behind me so I walked to the front of the plane. As I passed the overwing exits I noticed, to my surprise, that all 12 exit row seats were empty. On coming back from the lav I decided to sit in one of those seats for a bit, to give my knees a rest. After about 10 minutes a different cabin attendant came along. She told me that I had to pay the extra-legroom seat fee (which I didn't want to do), or move. Fair enough, but before I got up, I asked her why there had been nobody sitting in the exit row for takeoff (I was sure that four people had not disappeared from the four 3-seat exit rows). She was a little defensive and said "It's not an ICAO requirement", and then "it's not our company policy". I didn't argue further and went back to my assigned seat. I didn't observe any musical chairs going on later, so I assume that we landed with nobody in the overwing exit rows either.
My question for flight or cabin crew is: Is this allowed? Who makes the rules on this? The only reason I can think of for an airline choosing to have this policy is to ensure that 100% of pax who occupy an overwing exit row seat have paid for it, thus deterring the occasional freeloader like me from thinking that there might be a chance of a free upgrade. Again, I completely understand that I was told not to move there during level flight, but in the event of an evacuation having nobody sitting next to any of the four overwing exit doors would surely cost a substantial amount of time, as pax who have not had any instruction in the use of the exit doors (and yes, I know the "instruction" is often minimal) try to sort themselves out so that four people are assigned to open the overwing exits, and maybe don't check for fire outside either. Still, maybe things are different in Asia.
Thanks for any light that you can shed on this.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 291
Likes: 26
From: Hundred Acre Wood
Our Ops manual (European carrier) requires one person to be in each side of a seat row with an emergency exit. So if the overwing exits were rows 12 and 13 on an A320, you’d need four people: one in 12A, 12B or 12C, one in 12D, 12E or 12F, one in 13A, 13B or 13C and one in 13D, 13E or 13F. Passengers would have to be reseated to comply with this.
However, with low loads and if the middle of the cabin is empty for trim reasons, the above is not necessary and all the exit row seats could be vacant. So, to answer your question, yes it is allowed. If they denied you the seat because of trim issues, then there’s not much you can do about that.
However, with low loads and if the middle of the cabin is empty for trim reasons, the above is not necessary and all the exit row seats could be vacant. So, to answer your question, yes it is allowed. If they denied you the seat because of trim issues, then there’s not much you can do about that.
Joined: Oct 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,028
Likes: 121
From: Wherever I go, there I am
At our airline (Canadian carrier), there is no requirement for someone to be seated in the emergency exit row as there is no requirement written into our aviation regulations. As it happens, I find I deadhead more often than not in the emergency exit because no one is seated there, and our pilot contract specifically calls out the emergency exits as priority if there are no open seats in business or premium.
So how to we fill those exits then if no one wants to pay the fee to sit there?
In the event of what is called a Planned Emergency Landing (defined as a non-normal or emergency landing where the FAs have 10 minutes or more to secure the cabin), and where the emergency exit seats are empty, our FAs will identify and move Able Bodied Passengers (ABP) during their pre-landing procedures. In the highly unlikely event that something happens last minute and the FAs cannot move an ABP (called an Unplanned Emergency Landing), then it's up to them to manage the situation after the aircraft comes to a stop if they were not able to move someone before landing. However, given it's one of the first steps in their Emergency Landing Checklist (ELC), at most they'd need 3 to maybe 5 minutes from when we told them to grab their ELC. Gallows humour as it may be, there are not too many emergencies that develop quicker than that where the state of the aircraft after coming to a stop does not provide passengers and crew with a newly formed emergency exit.
As it applies in Canada - and I'd assume the regs are the same in most other jurisdictions - here is an overview of the regs that apply to passengers and the emergency exit (there are a bunch more about sizing of the exit and crew training, but those are not applicable to this discussion):
1) All emergency exits and any associated equipment (e.g., slides) must be operative.
2) Any person who is seated in an emergency exit must be briefed on the use of the exit and when to and when not to use it. If that person declines the briefing or is unwilling to perform the duties, that person must be moved.
3) That no child restraint system is permitted in an emergency exit row seat.
4) That access to the emergency exit is not blocked (for example, by power cords, bags, loose items of clothing, etc).
5) That the person who is seated in an emergency exit will not adversely affect the safety of passengers and crew during an evacuation.
To meet this last requirement (#5) my last few airlines would teach the acronym PINCODE: Pregnant, Infant, Non-English Speaking, Children, Obese, Disabled, Elderly. If anyone seated in the emergency exit fell into one of those groups, it was up to the Cabin Manager to determine if they thought the person would adversely affect an evacuation. If so, they would be moved and told how to obtain a refund. If the Cabin Manager did not think they would affect an evacuation, they would be left in the seat.
So how to we fill those exits then if no one wants to pay the fee to sit there?
In the event of what is called a Planned Emergency Landing (defined as a non-normal or emergency landing where the FAs have 10 minutes or more to secure the cabin), and where the emergency exit seats are empty, our FAs will identify and move Able Bodied Passengers (ABP) during their pre-landing procedures. In the highly unlikely event that something happens last minute and the FAs cannot move an ABP (called an Unplanned Emergency Landing), then it's up to them to manage the situation after the aircraft comes to a stop if they were not able to move someone before landing. However, given it's one of the first steps in their Emergency Landing Checklist (ELC), at most they'd need 3 to maybe 5 minutes from when we told them to grab their ELC. Gallows humour as it may be, there are not too many emergencies that develop quicker than that where the state of the aircraft after coming to a stop does not provide passengers and crew with a newly formed emergency exit.
As it applies in Canada - and I'd assume the regs are the same in most other jurisdictions - here is an overview of the regs that apply to passengers and the emergency exit (there are a bunch more about sizing of the exit and crew training, but those are not applicable to this discussion):
1) All emergency exits and any associated equipment (e.g., slides) must be operative.
2) Any person who is seated in an emergency exit must be briefed on the use of the exit and when to and when not to use it. If that person declines the briefing or is unwilling to perform the duties, that person must be moved.
3) That no child restraint system is permitted in an emergency exit row seat.
4) That access to the emergency exit is not blocked (for example, by power cords, bags, loose items of clothing, etc).
5) That the person who is seated in an emergency exit will not adversely affect the safety of passengers and crew during an evacuation.
To meet this last requirement (#5) my last few airlines would teach the acronym PINCODE: Pregnant, Infant, Non-English Speaking, Children, Obese, Disabled, Elderly. If anyone seated in the emergency exit fell into one of those groups, it was up to the Cabin Manager to determine if they thought the person would adversely affect an evacuation. If so, they would be moved and told how to obtain a refund. If the Cabin Manager did not think they would affect an evacuation, they would be left in the seat.
