Are cabin crew safe or not?
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Are cabin crew safe or not?
A lot of posters in R&N seem to think that cabin crew are not trustworthy, that it is too easy to get a job as cabin crew. This in response to the rule in the US and now possibly in many places that the cabin crew can be the second person to stand by when the pilot visits the loo. Just so nobody is alone in the cockpit, as in the Germanwings tragedy.
Any comment?
Any comment?
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Cabin crew will have a five year work and personal history/background check before they get anywhere near an aircraft. BA did have a recent employee however who did try and be cabin crew but his work history meant he couldn't. This was believed by many to be an attempt to create a black swan event.
As a whole I would say cabin crew would be very safe indeed however with many becoming radicalised online and Isis now franchising, I would say there is a risk, a greater risk than pilots. After all, why go through all of the expense, time and effort of being a pilot. Just do a course and in a few weeks you could be orchestrating 9/11 Mk.2.
As a whole I would say cabin crew would be very safe indeed however with many becoming radicalised online and Isis now franchising, I would say there is a risk, a greater risk than pilots. After all, why go through all of the expense, time and effort of being a pilot. Just do a course and in a few weeks you could be orchestrating 9/11 Mk.2.
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You've also got the risks of people who seemingly live happy, healthy lives suffer an incident in their life which changes them. For example, post natal depression. Who's to say someone won't come back to work following pregnancy and then causing havoc due to the illness. They have a clear medical record and no gaps in their employment. So there is an element of risk both for new joiners as well as long term employees. Take the sad example of a long term AA flight attendant who had a meltdown and was sickeningly turned into a piece of entertainment by the deplorable passengers and the news channels.
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Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge. The fact that quite a few pilots are married to some is unfortunately shifting the judgment of many.
Basically they are recruited out of nowhere, stay in our companies sometimes as short as 6 months, and after resigning go back to nowhere...
You may encounter some with a little bit of extreme religious involvment - you see what I mean, and for sure I've met some of them which I found a little bit limit for that matter
To give them a function in the cockpit is non-sense.
When my colleague is out to the toilets or stretching his legs - and this last thing in a transoceanic flight is absolutely necessary, and we will continue to do it (in other words no CC is going to clock how much time we spent out of the cockpit, or how many times we go out for a pee) I will remain in charge of who is going to be admitted to the cockpit, and the total stranger who is going to be seated on the jumpseat will not have a word in my decision to open or not the door to one of his buddies...
A suggested SOP : when other pilot is out, and CC observer in, the door will be opened (by remaining pilot) only to the other pilot coming back..... and brief your crew about it, that will deflate some of their self-perceived role.
In other words, cabin crew are much more a statistical security risk than pilots...
Basically they are recruited out of nowhere, stay in our companies sometimes as short as 6 months, and after resigning go back to nowhere...
You may encounter some with a little bit of extreme religious involvment - you see what I mean, and for sure I've met some of them which I found a little bit limit for that matter
To give them a function in the cockpit is non-sense.
When my colleague is out to the toilets or stretching his legs - and this last thing in a transoceanic flight is absolutely necessary, and we will continue to do it (in other words no CC is going to clock how much time we spent out of the cockpit, or how many times we go out for a pee) I will remain in charge of who is going to be admitted to the cockpit, and the total stranger who is going to be seated on the jumpseat will not have a word in my decision to open or not the door to one of his buddies...
A suggested SOP : when other pilot is out, and CC observer in, the door will be opened (by remaining pilot) only to the other pilot coming back..... and brief your crew about it, that will deflate some of their self-perceived role.
In other words, cabin crew are much more a statistical security risk than pilots...
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I would tend to agree. Having flown on many low cost and full service airlines, I am often stunned at the calibre of some crew. It would appear that some are just dragged off of the street. At work I met one FA who thought 9/11 was bombs, and not planes, and another who did not know what 'overwings' were. I've also heard of one deliberately setting a fire so to appear as a hero when he put out the fire, crew stealing money, stealing safety equipment, one having a major breakdown midair after a security threat was made to a flight, cabin crew screaming 'we're going to die' during turbulence and many other incidents that do make me wonder how they got a job. Often I just think it's a matter of: are they 18? TICK. Pretty? TICK. Then they're taken on.
A majority are good, but as flight crew, we don't necessarily control who comes into the flight deck. I know which ones I wouldn't want in, but that's because I doubt their integrity and ability and not because I fear they will be a security threat.
Airlines need to rethink their recruitment policy. It is a responsible job and putting someone who's just turned 18 and has never worked before is simply not good enough.
A majority are good, but as flight crew, we don't necessarily control who comes into the flight deck. I know which ones I wouldn't want in, but that's because I doubt their integrity and ability and not because I fear they will be a security threat.
Airlines need to rethink their recruitment policy. It is a responsible job and putting someone who's just turned 18 and has never worked before is simply not good enough.
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Now it will be much easier to introduce somebody in the cockpit and take control - a cabin crew male, 2 months in the company (where does he come from ? where was he before ? ) - yes, because of the majority of the crew being female, they will have to bring some of the juniors from the back to act as "cockpit marshalls"
Last month one of them was trying to argue in the cockpit with both of us pilots, in a confuse manner about Iran, Syria, his childhood under the bombs of the IAF and God knows what, he was difficult to follow, and of course none of us was trying to argue...
Last year in the galley a purser was giving hints about the war "many people in Europe" were ready to start - guess what he had in mind...
and those people are going to "monitor" Captains, some of them could even be their grandfather ?
An absolute disgrace, typical rushed decision for PR, unfortunately all over the ME region and Europe...
Last month one of them was trying to argue in the cockpit with both of us pilots, in a confuse manner about Iran, Syria, his childhood under the bombs of the IAF and God knows what, he was difficult to follow, and of course none of us was trying to argue...
Last year in the galley a purser was giving hints about the war "many people in Europe" were ready to start - guess what he had in mind...
and those people are going to "monitor" Captains, some of them could even be their grandfather ?
An absolute disgrace, typical rushed decision for PR, unfortunately all over the ME region and Europe...
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Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge.
I'm not cabin crew or in any way associated with the commercial aviation industry by the way. Just a pax. I wonder what your opinion of the talking ballast that pay your salary is?
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Cabin crew (smartphones with legs, tabloid readers, avid shoppers, "need to sleep" on layovers, or middle-eastern dodgy individuals) are much more a safety risk than pilots !
Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
If they lose their job, what investment will they lose ?
How does it look (passenger point of view) to have CC checking pilots ?
Will they have priority to operate the door switch, in case of disagreement with remaining pilot ?
Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
If they lose their job, what investment will they lose ?
How does it look (passenger point of view) to have CC checking pilots ?
Will they have priority to operate the door switch, in case of disagreement with remaining pilot ?
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Whisperer:
Looking at the abysmal stick and rudder skills of modern 1000 hour wonderkind I'm amazed they have the temerity to criticise anyone else who flies the same shift as they.
Looking at the abysmal stick and rudder skills of modern 1000 hour wonderkind I'm amazed they have the temerity to criticise anyone else who flies the same shift as they.
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As a passenger I prefer to have a pilot at the controls and have the flight attendants handle cabin safety and serve meals and drinks. (In that order of priority 
)
I tend to trust the flight attendants with my safety, just as I do the pilots... I know they all have been antecedent-checked and trained. That's the best bureaucracy(*) can provide me.
Cabin crew has to be trusted (and generally can!)
(*) this includes both airline and government bureaucracy.
)I tend to trust the flight attendants with my safety, just as I do the pilots... I know they all have been antecedent-checked and trained. That's the best bureaucracy(*) can provide me.
Cabin crew has to be trusted (and generally can!)
(*) this includes both airline and government bureaucracy.
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My colleagues who work in the cabin appear to be different to those described above. Our CA's are well educated, are fluent in two languages and pretty useful in a couple of others. They have to hop through a fair number of hoops to get their jobs and a few more to hang on to them. I'm proud to call them colleagues and enjoy working with them and socialising afterwards. But the time taken from accepting the job to being online can be as little as 12 weeks.
But having to place them in the cockpit when we go for a leak is evidence that half-witted, knuckled dragging, ignorant idiots are right at the heart of our aviation authorities. Just what exactly what cabin crew are meant to do when they with us has been left out. Furthermore, would they know I've just popped the C/B on 26E that controls the door or that I'm just about to shut down both engines? That is, if I haven't strangled them beforehand.
Then we have the distraction element. One in, one out and the pilot remaining still has to fly, speak and manage the aircraft. And let's remember that whenever someone enters or leaves the cockpit the possibility of snagging something exist. But obviously a stupid sod like me doesn't know, unlike our well qualified authorities who know otherwise, that since last week the chance of a lone pilot crashing an aircraft has increased. These pathetic idiots don't deserve the air they breathe.
So Mary, we are ALL less safe because the Muppets have had another rush of **** to their brains.
PM
But having to place them in the cockpit when we go for a leak is evidence that half-witted, knuckled dragging, ignorant idiots are right at the heart of our aviation authorities. Just what exactly what cabin crew are meant to do when they with us has been left out. Furthermore, would they know I've just popped the C/B on 26E that controls the door or that I'm just about to shut down both engines? That is, if I haven't strangled them beforehand.
Then we have the distraction element. One in, one out and the pilot remaining still has to fly, speak and manage the aircraft. And let's remember that whenever someone enters or leaves the cockpit the possibility of snagging something exist. But obviously a stupid sod like me doesn't know, unlike our well qualified authorities who know otherwise, that since last week the chance of a lone pilot crashing an aircraft has increased. These pathetic idiots don't deserve the air they breathe.
So Mary, we are ALL less safe because the Muppets have had another rush of **** to their brains.
PM
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Piltdown man, my friend, of course the pilot remaining in the cockpit has to fly, speak, and manage the aircraft. One would hope that the Captain would not choose the transit of the Atlantic weather convergence for the best time to head for the cawsey.
We are not asking the cabin crew to fly the aeroplane. Nor are we asking the latest youngster to join the crew to be the one to keep you company,just to open the door when the captain/first officer returns.
BUT as the female is almost never inspired to violent suicide...unless inspired by radical islam, just another person being there will make it more difficult to carry out your wicked intent. It has to be harder to kill one person who could be your friend, and is there with you, than to be alone with the autopilot.
Cabin crew, even the males, have to develop skills of working with difficult people; as opposed to some of the bad tempered scornful male pilots on this thread, including the one based in Quatar. The ones with long service have to deal with all kinds of drunken blokes inflated with self importance. Which would be more the type of persuasion needed than say karate training or using the fire axe.
We are not asking the cabin crew to fly the aeroplane. Nor are we asking the latest youngster to join the crew to be the one to keep you company,just to open the door when the captain/first officer returns.
BUT as the female is almost never inspired to violent suicide...unless inspired by radical islam, just another person being there will make it more difficult to carry out your wicked intent. It has to be harder to kill one person who could be your friend, and is there with you, than to be alone with the autopilot.
Cabin crew, even the males, have to develop skills of working with difficult people; as opposed to some of the bad tempered scornful male pilots on this thread, including the one based in Quatar. The ones with long service have to deal with all kinds of drunken blokes inflated with self importance. Which would be more the type of persuasion needed than say karate training or using the fire axe.
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Reinhardt
That’s an exceeding unpleasant post that stinks of arrogance. You must be a great joy to fly with. I was fortunate enough to work in a company where 99% of flight crew valued our input to the operation, were very grateful to us and even took the time to ask our opinions on matters than affect the operation. I suggest you try it sometime, you’ll create a far nicer working environment onboard and your crew will respect you for it.
mockingjay
I was 18 when I got my first job as cabin crew; I had worked in a variety of customer service orientated jobs before and did plenty of research and homework before attending the interview. I felt I had every right to be on that training course as anyone else. I received positive assessments from senior cabin crew members and thoroughly enjoyed my job.
I will admit that as the Ts and Cs slide the average calibre of any given crew member will undoubtedly drop
That’s an exceeding unpleasant post that stinks of arrogance. You must be a great joy to fly with. I was fortunate enough to work in a company where 99% of flight crew valued our input to the operation, were very grateful to us and even took the time to ask our opinions on matters than affect the operation. I suggest you try it sometime, you’ll create a far nicer working environment onboard and your crew will respect you for it.
mockingjay
I was 18 when I got my first job as cabin crew; I had worked in a variety of customer service orientated jobs before and did plenty of research and homework before attending the interview. I felt I had every right to be on that training course as anyone else. I received positive assessments from senior cabin crew members and thoroughly enjoyed my job.
I will admit that as the Ts and Cs slide the average calibre of any given crew member will undoubtedly drop
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Call me old fashioned but the loss of flight engineers was a serious detriment to the dynamic of the flight deck.
As you all must know: flight deck of the future consists of one pilot and a dog. The pilot is there to feed the dog, the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.
As you all must know: flight deck of the future consists of one pilot and a dog. The pilot is there to feed the dog, the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.
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Cabin crew in the flight deck, no thank you.
There are only two ways to prevent another GW or MH370,
No 1, remotely controlled aircraft, ie, drones, no pilots, it will come but not for quite a few yeas yet.
No 2, Flight Engineers, it was a massive mistake to remove Flight Engineers, you can have an unlicensed/untrained stewardess or hormonal steward who do not have aircrew training or medicals and do not have a clue what is happening in the F/D, any pilot can wind down the altitude, turn on to a heading, reprogram the FMS or even switch off all engines and cabin crew would not have a clue, just carry on chatting, or a Flight Engineer, who has years of training, knows everything that is happening in the F/D, knows what every c/b does and can correct altitude loss, reset to the correct HDG, can make sure the FMS takes the aircraft to the correct waypoint, he can even restart the engines.
A cheap get out by the authorities.
CC or F/E, you chose.
There are only two ways to prevent another GW or MH370,
No 1, remotely controlled aircraft, ie, drones, no pilots, it will come but not for quite a few yeas yet.
No 2, Flight Engineers, it was a massive mistake to remove Flight Engineers, you can have an unlicensed/untrained stewardess or hormonal steward who do not have aircrew training or medicals and do not have a clue what is happening in the F/D, any pilot can wind down the altitude, turn on to a heading, reprogram the FMS or even switch off all engines and cabin crew would not have a clue, just carry on chatting, or a Flight Engineer, who has years of training, knows everything that is happening in the F/D, knows what every c/b does and can correct altitude loss, reset to the correct HDG, can make sure the FMS takes the aircraft to the correct waypoint, he can even restart the engines.
A cheap get out by the authorities.
CC or F/E, you chose.
Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge. The fact that quite a few pilots are married to some is unfortunately shifting the judgment of many.
Basically they are recruited out of nowhere, stay in our companies sometimes as short as 6 months, and after resigning go back to nowhere...
Basically they are recruited out of nowhere, stay in our companies sometimes as short as 6 months, and after resigning go back to nowhere...
It's comments like that that make the divide between flight deck and cabin crew wider at a time when crews should work together. Doesn't CRM do anything for you? Having said that I'm glad I retired from aviation when I did after an excellent 29 year career as cabin crew and even survived speaking to Captains via the FO!
Crewmeal, I like you am quite disappointed at Reinhardt's comments but I'm not at all surprised as I've witnessed all the boorish behaviour described.
For the most part its a generational thing, and I'm sure you'll agree, the more mature amongst us recognise this for what it is.
Having said that I am very very uncomfortable at the idea of having CC in the flightdeck who's sole responsibility is to ensure the door remains viable for the pilot outside to get in. IMHO this introduces additional risk to the safe zone of the flight deck. Its a very short bow to draw to assume that at some point a "sleeper" (perhaps the son of a labour councillor in Rochdale?) of some description would pass the 6-8 weeks of ground school that would allow them pretty much unfettered access to the flight deck.
To me its not abut the quality of individuals, its the quantity, and in this case it is a poorly thought through PR exercise that has made us all less safe.
The germanwings incident was both tragic, and I believe will be shown to have been preventable in as much as the F/O should never have been able to maintain his medical.
If that were the case, then we would merely be commenting on what a wonderful CRM environment Reinhardt creates.
For the most part its a generational thing, and I'm sure you'll agree, the more mature amongst us recognise this for what it is.
Having said that I am very very uncomfortable at the idea of having CC in the flightdeck who's sole responsibility is to ensure the door remains viable for the pilot outside to get in. IMHO this introduces additional risk to the safe zone of the flight deck. Its a very short bow to draw to assume that at some point a "sleeper" (perhaps the son of a labour councillor in Rochdale?) of some description would pass the 6-8 weeks of ground school that would allow them pretty much unfettered access to the flight deck.
To me its not abut the quality of individuals, its the quantity, and in this case it is a poorly thought through PR exercise that has made us all less safe.
The germanwings incident was both tragic, and I believe will be shown to have been preventable in as much as the F/O should never have been able to maintain his medical.
If that were the case, then we would merely be commenting on what a wonderful CRM environment Reinhardt creates.
Monarch Man - you raise some very interesting points that I've obviously overlooked in the heat of the moment. In my day you didn't have to worry about security and there was virtually 'open access' to the flight deck with kids and families visiting, pax sitting in the flight deck for landing and take off etc. In fact the Middle East and Pakistan were great places to visit. Since 9/11 that has all gone and that part of the world is now is more dangerous than ever.
You raise the point of 'sleepers' which in my view is critical to aviation as so many seem to be radicalised towards fundamental groups. There could be someone that could slip through the net and cause utter devastation. What is the answer? A difficult one. Even with security checks to get access to air side does not guarantee 100% safety. Perhaps carriers need to go down the EL-Al route and carry onboard sky marshals maybe one answer.
You raise the point of 'sleepers' which in my view is critical to aviation as so many seem to be radicalised towards fundamental groups. There could be someone that could slip through the net and cause utter devastation. What is the answer? A difficult one. Even with security checks to get access to air side does not guarantee 100% safety. Perhaps carriers need to go down the EL-Al route and carry onboard sky marshals maybe one answer.