Evacuation Command
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 1998
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From: Australia
Well being flight deck crew, and managing an EP program, i can say that pilots are NOT always the best judge of exits to be used. Like everyone in the puzzle, they have some information but not all of it. The final assessment of exit availability is the check outside from the viewing window. The problem with fuel spills (as an example) is knowing how that spill may migrate along the ground. So even though there is risk in opening an exit if there is a fuel spill not identifiable by CC, there is also a risk in not opening a perfectly serviceable door prior to any fuel spill igniting, if it should. Its a fine line. Of course if you have an Aviation Rescue Fire Fighting service at the field, it is usually better to give them a chance to contain external fires and fuel spills before considering an evacuation. So long as the airframe is intact you have up to 5 minutes before burn through of the fuselage and insulating material occurs. That is well beyond the minimum response times for the ARFF (assuming it is a clear day/night and you are on a runway or taxiway).
How many of you have procedures for CC shutting down the aircraft engines prior to initiating an evacuation if the FC are incapacitated?
How many of you have procedures for CC shutting down the aircraft engines prior to initiating an evacuation if the FC are incapacitated?
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Sussex,UK
We don't but are there many scenarios are there that this could actually come into play? If both flight crew are completely incapacitated due to impact injuries, then that would suggest fairly heavy damage to the flight deck and possible buckling of the front section. Would the crew even be able to get in and reach the handles? That's assuming that the cabin crew at the front are also not incapacitated, the engines have survived the impact and the controls are working. The only other situation I could think of would be smoke inhalation but again, if the flight crew are overcome and those in the cabin aren't, would the time taken to get into the flight deck would be too long?
(These are genuine questions by the way. It's a subject I have an interest in, not just for my own personal safety!)
(These are genuine questions by the way. It's a subject I have an interest in, not just for my own personal safety!)
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
My emergency evacuation / parachute abandonment drill for my students was:
"In the event of an emergency requiring us to leave the aircraft immediately, I will say "JUMP, JUMP, JUMP!" If you hesitate, you will see the words "FOLLOW" and "ME" written on the soles of my boots as I jump headfirst over the side."
They always seemed to understand.
"In the event of an emergency requiring us to leave the aircraft immediately, I will say "JUMP, JUMP, JUMP!" If you hesitate, you will see the words "FOLLOW" and "ME" written on the soles of my boots as I jump headfirst over the side."
They always seemed to understand.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 1998
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From: Australia
jet set lady, all good questions and valid ones. It is probable that if both pilots are incapacitated then further damage to the airframe and controls is likely. The chance of shutting an engine down will be partly dependant on the make and model of aircraft. Many aircraft these days have electronic control of the engine start/stop systems in the flight deck. All you would need to effect a shut down is a complete electrical circuit between the master switch, the FADEC and the engine fuel valves. that may be more likely that older types where controls were cable actuated.
If engines were running and CC had to initiate an evac with incapacitated FC, do any of your company procedures preclude use of exits forward of the wing?
If engines were running and CC had to initiate an evac with incapacitated FC, do any of your company procedures preclude use of exits forward of the wing?
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: liverpool uk
The Kegworth crash showed that some passengers were unable to evacuate due to fractured femurs due to seat design. There was at the time a metal rail across the seat a femur level so when that aircraft crash the impact and resultant 'G' forces caused the fractures. A number of seats are still at Farnbrough.
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Midlands
Spruce - dont you mean rear of the wing?
Certainly at low idle the engine ingestion zone does not extend as far forward as the L1/R1 doors so these would be safe-ISH for egress and evacuation forward of the aircraft.
Doors rear of the engines would be no-go due to engine exhaust gas.
Though saying that in an EJ135/145 type design you could probably evacuate all doors with engines at idle (it would be a bit noisy though)
However, if the flight crew is incapacitated then presumably CC could start evac via L1/R1 whilst one CC enters the flightdeck and pull the fire handles to cause shutdown (thats if CC do have the door code if not fire axe the way in) If the cockpit becomes detached so entry is not possible then the control systems would have severed and the engines would shutdown anyway due to fuel starvation as the pumps will stop running.
Although any impact causing crew incapacitation on impact would be a very severe impact, of sufficient size to cause severe engine damage which will result in shutdown. Any in-flight incapacitation of both crew is unlikely to result in a survivable accident. If you would be lucky enough to survive then the aircraft is likely to be in multiple pieces and the engines again severely damaged resulting in shutdown.
Certainly at low idle the engine ingestion zone does not extend as far forward as the L1/R1 doors so these would be safe-ISH for egress and evacuation forward of the aircraft.
Doors rear of the engines would be no-go due to engine exhaust gas.
Though saying that in an EJ135/145 type design you could probably evacuate all doors with engines at idle (it would be a bit noisy though)
However, if the flight crew is incapacitated then presumably CC could start evac via L1/R1 whilst one CC enters the flightdeck and pull the fire handles to cause shutdown (thats if CC do have the door code if not fire axe the way in) If the cockpit becomes detached so entry is not possible then the control systems would have severed and the engines would shutdown anyway due to fuel starvation as the pumps will stop running.
Although any impact causing crew incapacitation on impact would be a very severe impact, of sufficient size to cause severe engine damage which will result in shutdown. Any in-flight incapacitation of both crew is unlikely to result in a survivable accident. If you would be lucky enough to survive then the aircraft is likely to be in multiple pieces and the engines again severely damaged resulting in shutdown.
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Austria
Here, the evacuation command is simple. "This is an emergency. Evacuate." (repeated in German language). While it is allowed to specify the exits to be used, doing so is left to flight crew discretion. If no exit is specified, cabin crew is to check the conditions outside on their own and decide whether using an exit is safe or not.
After an emergency landing and also a rejected takeoff, flight crew has 10 seconds to call a decision. If nothing is heard until then, cabin crew will call the flight deck and in the absence of other instructions begin to evacuate on their own account thereafter.
After an emergency landing and also a rejected takeoff, flight crew has 10 seconds to call a decision. If nothing is heard until then, cabin crew will call the flight deck and in the absence of other instructions begin to evacuate on their own account thereafter.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 1998
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From: Australia
At idle power the escape slides closest to the engine intakes are safe. Above Idle there are no guarantee's. You will notice on some wide body types, the slides closest to the engine intakes are canted slightly forward to ensure evacuee's are dispatched at a slight angle away from the engine intakes. The danger of ingestion is far worse than the danger of of jet blast, but this is also considered at idle power. We used to teach CC not to open doors forward of engines if they were running but we changed it in light of the engine intake danger footprints being safe for this condition. We were essentially pre blocking useable exits. We also used to teach CC to shut down engines if they were running and FC were incapacitated. That changed too and is no longer done. I'm curious how many operators teach CC the quite basic task of shutting engines down if they need to before initiating an evacuation.
Sorry for so many questions but I am quite curious for my own research in procedural design as to who does what and why. The industry really needs, and lacks, any internationally accepted standards of CC EP procedures.
Sorry for so many questions but I am quite curious for my own research in procedural design as to who does what and why. The industry really needs, and lacks, any internationally accepted standards of CC EP procedures.
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Austria
Originally Posted by sprucegoose
We also used to teach CC to shut down engines if they were running and FC were incapacitated.
So the choice is either to use time to ensure the engines are dead while the cabin becomes more and more inhospitable or to accept the uncertainty about the engines state and get those passengers out of the cabin.
Accepting the more or less remote possibility of an engine still running and therefore giving the evacuees orders to leave the individual exit into an appropriate direction away from the engines is certainly not a perfect option either but IMHO more likely to result in the desired outcome: to get the passengers out and clear of the aircraft as quickly as possible.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 1998
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From: Australia
I can't recall which came first, the door or the procedure. I do recall that some not very well supervised live aircraft training had resulted in start levers being left in the wrong position following a CC training session one evening and the fall out was to cease the manual manipulation of the start/stop controls for engines. It may have come to pass as a result that we didn't need to teach that anyway and dropped it.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: East of the Atlantic
In the USA most commands for an unplanned emergency are "heads down stay down, heads down stay down." Once the exits have been assessed then the evac commands begin which are "open seat belts get out, come this way, leave everything, jump jump" Evac command from the flight deck is "Get Out", if nothing from the flight deck the cabin crew can initiate an evacuation. In a planned evacuation the only difference is "Brace brace brace" just prior to landing. USA does not use NITS but instead uses NTSB, TEST or TESTS depending on the airline.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Oxford, UK
Forgive this thread creep, but can't resist sharing - if you havn't seen the film "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming" it is a classic and well worth watching.
The relevance to this discussion of evacuation takes place when the Soviet submarine crew are attempting to steal a motor yacht to tow their sub off an inconvenient sandbar. They invade a dry cleaners and cover their uniforms with incongruous civilian items, then proceed toward the docks telling everyone they meet - in heavy Russian accents -
"Emergency! Everybody to leave the street!"
When I am briefing a passenger in my glider, I first fit him with a parachute, and tell him- "If I say to you 'bale out!' don't turn around to ask me what did I say, because I won't be there any more!.....you can then decide what to do next.
The relevance to this discussion of evacuation takes place when the Soviet submarine crew are attempting to steal a motor yacht to tow their sub off an inconvenient sandbar. They invade a dry cleaners and cover their uniforms with incongruous civilian items, then proceed toward the docks telling everyone they meet - in heavy Russian accents -
"Emergency! Everybody to leave the street!"
When I am briefing a passenger in my glider, I first fit him with a parachute, and tell him- "If I say to you 'bale out!' don't turn around to ask me what did I say, because I won't be there any more!.....you can then decide what to do next.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
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From: Wor Yerm
I just wonder - how many of these procedures have come about as the result of real incidents and evacuations? The excruciating minutiae of detail defies all logic. The bottom line is that it becomes the Cabin Crew's job is to try and save as many people as possible once the overpaid heros in the bit that was the front have parked the remains of the aircraft. Simple commands, complete with errors, will be more than sufficient to coax the slightly recalcitrant out of their and seats and towards the emergency exits. The "eager beavers" will probably be out of the plane before the average CA has said anything and the Darwin Award mob will still be in their seats the following day, not matter what happens.
It is plain to see that the rubbish spouted by SEP trainers has no bearing on reality and appears to totally ignore human nature. It is a shame. Because time and time again, heroines have been seen by the doors of stricken, burning aircraft helping the injured and confused to safety using common sense, the very thing they appear not to be trusted to use in a real emergency. The bigger the problem, the simpler the procedures. It's about time things changed.
PM
It is plain to see that the rubbish spouted by SEP trainers has no bearing on reality and appears to totally ignore human nature. It is a shame. Because time and time again, heroines have been seen by the doors of stricken, burning aircraft helping the injured and confused to safety using common sense, the very thing they appear not to be trusted to use in a real emergency. The bigger the problem, the simpler the procedures. It's about time things changed.
PM
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: Home
The Captain used to nominate our exits - after impact they may have done an alert/post-impact PA stating "attention, this is the captain, cabin crew expect [all/RH/LH/FWD/AFT] exits", followed shortly by "attention, this is the captain, evacuate [nominated] exits, [nominated] exits evacuate". The first (alert) PA may or may not be used, it could go immediately into the evacuation.
The alert/post-impact PA was recently changed to "attention, this is the captain, cabin crew to your stations", which actually means to check the exits near our relevant station. To initiate an evacuation they now simply state "attention, this is the captain, evacuate evacuate." Basically, the big change is the decision of what exits to utilise has shifted from the flight deck to the cabin crew.
30 seconds prior to impact the Captain will announce "attention, brace brace", to which the CC command "brace, brace, brace, heads down, stay down, heads down, stay down, heads down, stay down", before bracing. This allows us to get into our brace position prior to impact, and we remain silent until the aircraft completely stops. We then release ourselves and command "stay seated" until given indication to open our exits.
Ours used to be TESTO, recently changed to NITS.
The alert/post-impact PA was recently changed to "attention, this is the captain, cabin crew to your stations", which actually means to check the exits near our relevant station. To initiate an evacuation they now simply state "attention, this is the captain, evacuate evacuate." Basically, the big change is the decision of what exits to utilise has shifted from the flight deck to the cabin crew.
Originally Posted by sprucegoose
How about the Brace commands, does your operation have crew ceasing them at the first sign of impact or when the aircraft comes to a stop. We have until stopped but if you are having a crash or non-normal event such as gear up, nobody will hear a damn thing and there is added risk of forward facing crew biting off a tongue in very high G forces.
Originally Posted by Dixie
USA does not use NITS but instead uses NTSB, TEST or TESTS depending on the airline.
