BAs attitude towards seat belts during turbulence
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BAs attitude towards seat belts during turbulence
I've just travelled long haul with BA for the first time in four and a half years, and although very pleased with the level of service from both crews, I was disturbed by the nonchalant attitude to cabin secure during in-flight turbulence.
On at least three occassions during the flight the Captain put on the seat belt signs
due to turbulence. On no occassion was a check made of passenger's seat belts to ensure they were fastened, but added to this
in a full world traveller cabin, customers were freely allowed to wander up and down the
aisles, move hand luggage to and from the lockers, queue for, and use the toilets.
Exactly what is your company's view on this, I'd be interested to know perhaps if a passenger were to put in a claim if a bag fell from an unsecured locker left open - yes this too! Or a passenger fell and injured another. This was a Trans-Atlantic,
just think of possible lawsuits here.
How are you trained re cabin secure in turbulence. I know that my training under the British CAA for another carrier requires
passengers to be seated with seatbelts fastened and the toilets unable to be used.
We block them off.
Other than that, cabin service to a very high standard and better than expected.
I openly invite any replies from BA crews
On at least three occassions during the flight the Captain put on the seat belt signs
due to turbulence. On no occassion was a check made of passenger's seat belts to ensure they were fastened, but added to this
in a full world traveller cabin, customers were freely allowed to wander up and down the
aisles, move hand luggage to and from the lockers, queue for, and use the toilets.
Exactly what is your company's view on this, I'd be interested to know perhaps if a passenger were to put in a claim if a bag fell from an unsecured locker left open - yes this too! Or a passenger fell and injured another. This was a Trans-Atlantic,
just think of possible lawsuits here.
How are you trained re cabin secure in turbulence. I know that my training under the British CAA for another carrier requires
passengers to be seated with seatbelts fastened and the toilets unable to be used.
We block them off.
Other than that, cabin service to a very high standard and better than expected.
I openly invite any replies from BA crews
Guest
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No Bored_titless,I don't work for channel 4, and no I don't have a frustrated desire to work for BA. However I do enjoy my job as cabin crew.
I was interested to know what your company/crew views were on the subject.
A wishy-washy attitude towards safety helps none of us. How do we expect customers to stick to the instructions we give them if we do not implement them and create an safe cabin environment and contradict with our nonchalant attitude what we have demonstrated to them or told them.
Think of that the next time - if you are cabin crew - a customer says "oh I flew with XYZ airlines last week and they let me put the bag there"
When people board one of the flights I operate we stick to the rules laid down firstly by the CAA and secondly our company's high cabin safety standards.
If we all adopt a single line on safety we all make our jobs for whichever airline, one hell of a lot easier.
More sensible replies invited.
I was interested to know what your company/crew views were on the subject.
A wishy-washy attitude towards safety helps none of us. How do we expect customers to stick to the instructions we give them if we do not implement them and create an safe cabin environment and contradict with our nonchalant attitude what we have demonstrated to them or told them.
Think of that the next time - if you are cabin crew - a customer says "oh I flew with XYZ airlines last week and they let me put the bag there"
When people board one of the flights I operate we stick to the rules laid down firstly by the CAA and secondly our company's high cabin safety standards.
If we all adopt a single line on safety we all make our jobs for whichever airline, one hell of a lot easier.
More sensible replies invited.
Guest
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What do you want the crew to do, force the pax to sit down? We tell them to sit down during the welcome PA, we tell them to sit down when we turn on the signs in flight. If they're too stupid to understand this (and to respect the legal authority of the Captain when the sign is turned on) then I don't think they'll have a leg to stand on in court.
Guest
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In response to Carnage Matey, Yes I would expect the crew to make them sit down, as you would if the aircraft was taxying - or is that allowed too?
And what about a injury sustained by a stray bag from a locker, or another passenger falling onto another?
And what about a injury sustained by a stray bag from a locker, or another passenger falling onto another?
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I have jost flown BA, and my experience was exactly the opposite. 
We had to wait 40 min for T/O, and had a little turbulence after. This meant that we had to stay seated for more than one hour. I really needed the toilet! And I was not the only one...but when we poor 2 teadrinkers managed to escape for a quick visit, watchdogs dashed at our trousers. We were rebuked and admonished to sit in the nearest seat after getting out. We were not allowed to regain our seat, and after the FSB was switched off, by then the service was going on and the ladies wouldn't let anyone through the aisle.
I found that a little bit too much, also because the turbulence was not that bad. I thought that the passenger's needs had been carelessly ignored. But I thought that maybe they were instructed to do so. I am perplexed by what you are reporting.
Can some BA F/A explain, or some other pax report his/her experience?
We had to wait 40 min for T/O, and had a little turbulence after. This meant that we had to stay seated for more than one hour. I really needed the toilet! And I was not the only one...but when we poor 2 teadrinkers managed to escape for a quick visit, watchdogs dashed at our trousers. We were rebuked and admonished to sit in the nearest seat after getting out. We were not allowed to regain our seat, and after the FSB was switched off, by then the service was going on and the ladies wouldn't let anyone through the aisle.
I found that a little bit too much, also because the turbulence was not that bad. I thought that the passenger's needs had been carelessly ignored. But I thought that maybe they were instructed to do so. I am perplexed by what you are reporting.
Can some BA F/A explain, or some other pax report his/her experience?
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Next Generation PSR...
JETBLAST with you! or maybe ask to create a "bitching" forum
Yours is not a very professional attitude towards another airline (the world's favourite)cabin crew!!
Just seen your wonderful comments on their service in another forum
It seems to me as you are a frustrated cabin crew working for a frustrating charter airline.
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*************************Happy Landings!
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JETBLAST with you! or maybe ask to create a "bitching" forum
Yours is not a very professional attitude towards another airline (the world's favourite)cabin crew!!
Just seen your wonderful comments on their service in another forum
It seems to me as you are a frustrated cabin crew working for a frustrating charter airline.
------------------
*************************Happy Landings!
*************************
Guest
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Xenia, you've missed my point and assumed another. I'm not intent on forming a bitching forum. It's just that when I'm sat in a passenger seat for which I paid (no rebate), be it even my own 'charter' airline,
I expect safety worthy of a leading airline.
Incidently I've been flying 'charter' happily for the past 15 years, and have flown long-haul wide bodies too.
And yes I did think otherwise your World Traveller product was very good on both flights.
But as with flyblue I expect a balance of safety and customer care and do not expect either to be compromised in a detrimental way.
But like I said if all us F/As stuck together on matters of safety, our customers might become more educated and understanding regarding the job we all do and it would be a lot easier long term.
I expect safety worthy of a leading airline.
Incidently I've been flying 'charter' happily for the past 15 years, and have flown long-haul wide bodies too.
And yes I did think otherwise your World Traveller product was very good on both flights.
But as with flyblue I expect a balance of safety and customer care and do not expect either to be compromised in a detrimental way.
But like I said if all us F/As stuck together on matters of safety, our customers might become more educated and understanding regarding the job we all do and it would be a lot easier long term.
Guest
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As far as lawauits go, as long as the seatbelt sign was on, and a PA made for all pax to be seated was made, the crew have done their job.
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the seatbelt sign is on due to turbulance, I am in the nearest seat with my seatbelt on (as per our procedure). I will continue to make pa's for pax to be seated if they ignore the seatbelt sign, however, I am certainly not risking getting injured during turbulance just to wander up and ask some idiot who fails to adhere to the sign and pa's to be seated!!
Our procedure is that all crew take their seats immediately regardless of the condition of the cabin/ galleys during unexpected turbulance when the seatbelt sign comes on.
The same for landing, by the time the seatbelt sign comes on, the entire crew is seated, and must be.
Ignoring this ( ie wandering around ensuring cabin/pax secure during turbulance) can mean that you will not be paid workers compensation if injured while the seatbelt sign is on (think about it, if you breach company procedures and are injured, there's no way they'll pay the claim !!).
The other way to look at it is, if you are injured during turbulance, there's not much you can do to help injured pax and crew !! And that's what you're there for !!
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the seatbelt sign is on due to turbulance, I am in the nearest seat with my seatbelt on (as per our procedure). I will continue to make pa's for pax to be seated if they ignore the seatbelt sign, however, I am certainly not risking getting injured during turbulance just to wander up and ask some idiot who fails to adhere to the sign and pa's to be seated!!
Our procedure is that all crew take their seats immediately regardless of the condition of the cabin/ galleys during unexpected turbulance when the seatbelt sign comes on.
The same for landing, by the time the seatbelt sign comes on, the entire crew is seated, and must be.
Ignoring this ( ie wandering around ensuring cabin/pax secure during turbulance) can mean that you will not be paid workers compensation if injured while the seatbelt sign is on (think about it, if you breach company procedures and are injured, there's no way they'll pay the claim !!).
The other way to look at it is, if you are injured during turbulance, there's not much you can do to help injured pax and crew !! And that's what you're there for !!
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Glad I saw this thread, as I've been wondering about this. I was on a transatlantic flight last week, when the seatbelt signs went on. Turbulence not particularly bad. The cabin crew (who were generally very friendly and professional) checked all the passengers were strapped in, but then carried on with the cabin service.
I was wondering - what is the general policy? From experience, it seems that there are 2 "levels" of turbulence - one when you strap the pax in and another when crew buckle up too. Is there a set policy on this or does it vary from airline to airline?
I was wondering - what is the general policy? From experience, it seems that there are 2 "levels" of turbulence - one when you strap the pax in and another when crew buckle up too. Is there a set policy on this or does it vary from airline to airline?
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At last, some more constructive feedback on the subject.
We are told to make a PA asking the customers to return to their seats, and that the washrooms are not to be used for safety reasons until the signs are switched off. Then I would check with the flight deck crew to make sure it was alright to carry on working. Whilst I was doing this the crew would be blocking off toilets, securing galleys and checking seatbelts were fastened including those sleeping. If the captain saw fit trolleys would be returned and crew would be seated and strapped in. I would give him a cabin secure check, then either return to my seat or carry on working if conditions permitted (we are insured if Captain says ok).
If the seat belts signs were on for more than 15 minutes a reminder PA would be made. However if anyone was getting particularly bolshy about remaining seated and desperate for the toilets, I would speak to the Captain to seek permission to let them go if he saw fit - but usually at their own risk, telling them that they were not insured. But queuing or getting up to open lockers etc is a real no-no.
Yes, sometimes the flight deck do forget to turn them off, one just has to use judgement to ask them if the turbulence has passed and it is ok to turn the FSB signs off.
We are told to make a PA asking the customers to return to their seats, and that the washrooms are not to be used for safety reasons until the signs are switched off. Then I would check with the flight deck crew to make sure it was alright to carry on working. Whilst I was doing this the crew would be blocking off toilets, securing galleys and checking seatbelts were fastened including those sleeping. If the captain saw fit trolleys would be returned and crew would be seated and strapped in. I would give him a cabin secure check, then either return to my seat or carry on working if conditions permitted (we are insured if Captain says ok).
If the seat belts signs were on for more than 15 minutes a reminder PA would be made. However if anyone was getting particularly bolshy about remaining seated and desperate for the toilets, I would speak to the Captain to seek permission to let them go if he saw fit - but usually at their own risk, telling them that they were not insured. But queuing or getting up to open lockers etc is a real no-no.
Yes, sometimes the flight deck do forget to turn them off, one just has to use judgement to ask them if the turbulence has passed and it is ok to turn the FSB signs off.
Guest
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Our policy is that cabin service can continue but no hot drinks, unless we tell them it's going to be rough in which case everyone straps in. In my opinion the crew should tell passengers to sit down if they try to walk around with the signs on, but I certainly don't expect them to injure themselves for the beneift of some muppet so if they can't reach and can't shout at them then thats that.
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Interesting. I often fly with one airline who, during the Captains welcoming PA, remind passengers that "as part of the British Airways group, we do take your on-borad safety very seriously indeed..."
The last time I flew with them one passenger stood up and began to head towards the toilet when the plane was very close to the TOA - but when the FSB sign still on. A cabin crew member instantly stopped her duties in the galley to mention to the passenger that she could go to the toilet but "at her own risk". As soon as that was done, she picked up the PA and reminded the rest of the passengers (who had all remained seated) of the FSB sign...
Maybe the Captains PA shoud have said, "As part of the British Airways group, we do take your on-board safety much more seriously than they do..."
The last time I flew with them one passenger stood up and began to head towards the toilet when the plane was very close to the TOA - but when the FSB sign still on. A cabin crew member instantly stopped her duties in the galley to mention to the passenger that she could go to the toilet but "at her own risk". As soon as that was done, she picked up the PA and reminded the rest of the passengers (who had all remained seated) of the FSB sign...
Maybe the Captains PA shoud have said, "As part of the British Airways group, we do take your on-board safety much more seriously than they do..."
Guest
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Next Generation PSR.
I agree with you that we should all be working to the same standard, our proceedures are the same as yours and are enforced.
Be carefull about telling pax that they are not insured if they are up when FSB signs are on, as this is not true. I saw the minutes of an airline saftey meeting about 3 months ago that stated this. All company training managers were advised to inform their crews not to tell pax this.
Happy flying all
I agree with you that we should all be working to the same standard, our proceedures are the same as yours and are enforced.
Be carefull about telling pax that they are not insured if they are up when FSB signs are on, as this is not true. I saw the minutes of an airline saftey meeting about 3 months ago that stated this. All company training managers were advised to inform their crews not to tell pax this.
Happy flying all
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I don't think you can generalise BA for being 'lax' in this area. It all depends on the crew and particularliy the CSD/Purser. Obviously BA's policy on seatbelts signs has to be in line with the CAA. I just flew with them and found them to be great on safety. I've also flown on other airlines where safety is non-existent yet they are within the UK. I have to agree though, that pax cannot be treated like children at the end of the day. If the seatbelt sign is on and a PA has been made but they insist on standing up - they deserve to break a leg and no law action will be able to agrue that one!
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Next Gen.,
(I seem to have spent all today responding to your posts !) I have only been hopping round the EU recently but all the safety briefs have said something to the effect of 'while you are seated please keep your seat belt on' and most of the pax have done just that. Maybe they are all fairly frequent flyers and know about the effects of turbulence. It always seems sensible to me to be fastened to the biggest thing around, these days car drivers and passengers do it automatically so why not air pax too? At the end of the day it's all about education and experience. Once you have been through a rough patch you tend to give more credence to what the crew tell you on the PA but mere words tend to be ignored. Pity, but they will still try to sue you afterwards.
VnV...
(I seem to have spent all today responding to your posts !) I have only been hopping round the EU recently but all the safety briefs have said something to the effect of 'while you are seated please keep your seat belt on' and most of the pax have done just that. Maybe they are all fairly frequent flyers and know about the effects of turbulence. It always seems sensible to me to be fastened to the biggest thing around, these days car drivers and passengers do it automatically so why not air pax too? At the end of the day it's all about education and experience. Once you have been through a rough patch you tend to give more credence to what the crew tell you on the PA but mere words tend to be ignored. Pity, but they will still try to sue you afterwards.
VnV...
Guest
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Well,I may take a bashing for this but here goes......
I am not a school teacher, I am not a police officer and i am not a parent. Most people who travel are adults and should be treated as such.
Initially at BA the flight crew make a PA advising pax that "there safety is our prime concern etc." and explain to them that they should keep their belts fastened at all times. During a day flight whenever the FSB sign came on I would make a PA advising pax of such, on a night flight the flight Crew include in the welcome on board PA that seat belts must be fastened and clearly visible to avoid being disturbed during the flight and NO further PA's are made, however the crew always complete a cabin secure check, anyone who is asleep with no seat belt on is woken up and asked to put it on and make it visible, we also do this during other services whenever we can see pax going to sleep it saves hassle later on.
All it takes later on if pax want to wander about and go to the loo etc is a quiet word and say"oh, just to remind you the seatbelt sign is on would you mind waiting until it has been turned off? If they tell you they have to go let them, you have covered yourself and done your job, The easiest way to piss off your pax is to treat them like kids, even if you think they deserve it as long as you have covered yourself so what, we have to get away from this holier than thou bloody aloof attitude.
I agree with Next Generation PSR in his ideals but we have enough bloody hassle with hand baggage for christ sakes can you ever envision it being any different?
I also dissuade crew from rolling out the old favourite" oh, you're not insured..." because they actually are!!!!!Any airline had a duty of care to its pax even if they disregard the FSB. do you really want to call the police just because someone needed to pee? Can't see the police being very impressed, nor the company who has to foot the legal bill and tie up the legal department.
End of the day, why make your our job more difficult than it is? Keep it as simple as possible and dont confuse pax complaints with a personal attack on you!!!!!!
I await with baited breath and a large Vodka for your comments.
Safe Flying
I am not a school teacher, I am not a police officer and i am not a parent. Most people who travel are adults and should be treated as such.
Initially at BA the flight crew make a PA advising pax that "there safety is our prime concern etc." and explain to them that they should keep their belts fastened at all times. During a day flight whenever the FSB sign came on I would make a PA advising pax of such, on a night flight the flight Crew include in the welcome on board PA that seat belts must be fastened and clearly visible to avoid being disturbed during the flight and NO further PA's are made, however the crew always complete a cabin secure check, anyone who is asleep with no seat belt on is woken up and asked to put it on and make it visible, we also do this during other services whenever we can see pax going to sleep it saves hassle later on.
All it takes later on if pax want to wander about and go to the loo etc is a quiet word and say"oh, just to remind you the seatbelt sign is on would you mind waiting until it has been turned off? If they tell you they have to go let them, you have covered yourself and done your job, The easiest way to piss off your pax is to treat them like kids, even if you think they deserve it as long as you have covered yourself so what, we have to get away from this holier than thou bloody aloof attitude.
I agree with Next Generation PSR in his ideals but we have enough bloody hassle with hand baggage for christ sakes can you ever envision it being any different?
I also dissuade crew from rolling out the old favourite" oh, you're not insured..." because they actually are!!!!!Any airline had a duty of care to its pax even if they disregard the FSB. do you really want to call the police just because someone needed to pee? Can't see the police being very impressed, nor the company who has to foot the legal bill and tie up the legal department.
End of the day, why make your our job more difficult than it is? Keep it as simple as possible and dont confuse pax complaints with a personal attack on you!!!!!!
I await with baited breath and a large Vodka for your comments.
Safe Flying
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Hi Psr777, I'll gladly join you with that Vodka, my favourite drink too.
Ok let's go through your response which suprisingly in part I agree with or adhere to personally.
I even ask customers on our flights to buckle up over their blankets so we need not disturb them uneccesarily, a great idea and
shows customer we care about not having to wake them.
Firstly I agree that we should always treat the customer with respect (at first, at least). I never adopt a 'finger wagging' approach as I've been in the business long enough (14yrs)to realise this doesn't work and just inflames the situation. I cringe when less experienced people do it.
In terms of my particular flight which caused me concern was that
a) Not on any of the occassions the FSB signs came on for turbulence did the crew carry out a seat belt check or attempt to ask customers to sit down on a personal basis. No back up PA from the cabin crew to add to what the flight deck had said including asking them not to use the washrooms for their own safety until the seatbelt signs had once again been switched off.
b) Crew even passed the dozen or so people queuing for the toilets to service them and did not even ask them to sit down. I understand if someone is desparate and would show empathy, but to allow a dozen or so people to remain standing?
Incidentally I was sat in seat 52J in the last section of a B747-200.
c) Cabin crew even allowed people to take things/restow stuff in lockers, leaving the lockers open whilst sorting the contents of their bag whilst the aircraft continued to bounce and sway sideways over The Rockies.
In the nicest possible way I'm sure your well aware of how the 747 'kicks' at the back.
I'm all for the friendly and reasoning approach and asking them if they can hang on if possible "as turbulence is an unknown quantity and I wouldn't like to see them get injured".
Incidentally both carriers I've worked for have told us to tell the customer they are at their own risk and not insured. I'd love to see this clarified and more info would be appreciated so I can bring this up on my forthcoming SEP.
I agree the job is hard enough, but safety is safety and to the more people understand the reasons why we ask them to do something and that all carriers adopt a uniform attitude within reason, the easier things will become.
If we don't allow people to walk around whilst taxying at 50mph, why should we at 500mph?
If I have a matter or safety which is being argued I will always explain the reasons why - bag blocking the two customers in the seats next to them or bottles in the overhead in lose plastic bags possibly leaking into electrics etc. I always do it with a smile, so they don't feel lectured or
that I'm being snotty.
This is the point I'm trying to make however, who do you think I would be most miffed with if I had of been struck on the head by a bag, or fallen onto by an off balance customer? The customer for being up during turbulence or the crew not even attempting to ask the dozen or so people standing all together queuing at the back to sit down?
I thought some points needed clarifying from my view as I felt any minute I might have been clouted by a bag or fallen on.
Right, now where's that Vodka and Diet Coke?
Cheers, and thanks for taking the time to respond.
Happy and safe flying to you
)
Ok let's go through your response which suprisingly in part I agree with or adhere to personally.
I even ask customers on our flights to buckle up over their blankets so we need not disturb them uneccesarily, a great idea and
shows customer we care about not having to wake them.
Firstly I agree that we should always treat the customer with respect (at first, at least). I never adopt a 'finger wagging' approach as I've been in the business long enough (14yrs)to realise this doesn't work and just inflames the situation. I cringe when less experienced people do it.
In terms of my particular flight which caused me concern was that
a) Not on any of the occassions the FSB signs came on for turbulence did the crew carry out a seat belt check or attempt to ask customers to sit down on a personal basis. No back up PA from the cabin crew to add to what the flight deck had said including asking them not to use the washrooms for their own safety until the seatbelt signs had once again been switched off.
b) Crew even passed the dozen or so people queuing for the toilets to service them and did not even ask them to sit down. I understand if someone is desparate and would show empathy, but to allow a dozen or so people to remain standing?
Incidentally I was sat in seat 52J in the last section of a B747-200.
c) Cabin crew even allowed people to take things/restow stuff in lockers, leaving the lockers open whilst sorting the contents of their bag whilst the aircraft continued to bounce and sway sideways over The Rockies.
In the nicest possible way I'm sure your well aware of how the 747 'kicks' at the back.
I'm all for the friendly and reasoning approach and asking them if they can hang on if possible "as turbulence is an unknown quantity and I wouldn't like to see them get injured".
Incidentally both carriers I've worked for have told us to tell the customer they are at their own risk and not insured. I'd love to see this clarified and more info would be appreciated so I can bring this up on my forthcoming SEP.
I agree the job is hard enough, but safety is safety and to the more people understand the reasons why we ask them to do something and that all carriers adopt a uniform attitude within reason, the easier things will become.
If we don't allow people to walk around whilst taxying at 50mph, why should we at 500mph?
If I have a matter or safety which is being argued I will always explain the reasons why - bag blocking the two customers in the seats next to them or bottles in the overhead in lose plastic bags possibly leaking into electrics etc. I always do it with a smile, so they don't feel lectured or
that I'm being snotty.
This is the point I'm trying to make however, who do you think I would be most miffed with if I had of been struck on the head by a bag, or fallen onto by an off balance customer? The customer for being up during turbulence or the crew not even attempting to ask the dozen or so people standing all together queuing at the back to sit down?
I thought some points needed clarifying from my view as I felt any minute I might have been clouted by a bag or fallen on.
Right, now where's that Vodka and Diet Coke?
Cheers, and thanks for taking the time to respond.
Happy and safe flying to you
)
Guest
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what can I say?!!!!!!
I totally agree with you, Iwas trying to get the pint over to our other esteemed brethren and girlthren!!!!!!! in the group.
I wish you worked on my flights !! aaaahhhh
tell you what you ever fly on one of mine as a pax, let me know and you can drink the champagne dry!!!!!!
Thanks for a good topic though, not enough crew get involved in this ind of thing.
cya
!!!!
I totally agree with you, Iwas trying to get the pint over to our other esteemed brethren and girlthren!!!!!!! in the group.
I wish you worked on my flights !! aaaahhhh
tell you what you ever fly on one of mine as a pax, let me know and you can drink the champagne dry!!!!!!
Thanks for a good topic though, not enough crew get involved in this ind of thing.
cya
!!!!