tezzer

Flew into the UK last night, j class, and sat next to a middle aged couple (Brits) who had 5A&B. I was across the aisle from them and when they boarded they seemd OK, apart from the champagne wasn't cold enough etc. etc. Taxying out, they insisted on a 2nd round of champagne, which they kept hold of through take off, which actually annoyed me a bit, but thats a separate issue. Anyway, as we took off they held hands, and started to pick out items from the Duty free book as gifts for each other,and I thought, yeah, thats nice.

After a few more scoops, it was time for dinner, and he wanted champagne, white wine, and red wine. And so it continued, for about an hour or so.

Then it really started.

They had a loud argument, ending in him giving her a proper thump or two in the face. I was shocked, and livid. I got up, went forward, and mentioned to the CC that there was a "domestic in 5AB, and that they might want to keep an eye. "No problem, thank for letting us know, we'll keep a watching brief, incase it escalates" was the reply.

Well, it DID escalate, he assaulted her physically no less than 5 times, and verbally continuosly, for the rest of the flight. When she got up to go and find another seat he physically dragged her back, and replaced her luggage in the overhead bins. everytime he had a drink, it started again, often witnessed by the CC.

What action did the CC take ? None other than to continue to supply him with vast quantities of Booze, exacerbating the situation.

So, the question is, what should they / could they have done to end this truly awful display of abuse ?

sinala1

Hmm well I would say cut the alcohol, seperate the passengers, if necessary then restrain the male passenger inflight... and have him arrested on arrival for assault!

VS-LHRCSA

Pretty much nothing. In past instances, if crew have got involved the couple will then gang up on the crew member.

Not having witnessed this particular situation, I can only imagine that if they had restrained the husband they probably would have needed to restrain her too.

Depending on the stage of the flight, crew could have considered diversion. This costs huge amounts of money and would inconvenience everyone else on board.

Cutting off the alcohol seems like an obvious solution. However have you ever actually tried to cut off alcohol to someone who is violent? Once they are at the violent stage, giving more alcohol is not going to make them even more violent. You would hope it would reduce their capabilities and send them too sleep. Sometimes cutting off the alcohol makes things much worse.

In the early stages, it sounds like they were a nice couple, so why would crew hold back alcohol at that stage. They were not going to know then how alcohol would effect this couple.

As I said, I wasn't there so it is a tough one to call. Things like this do happen and alcohol is usually involved. Perhaps airlines need to review their alcohol policy. Personally, I have never been in favour of service on the ground, ie: pre-take off drinks. They get spilt and they detract from safety duties at a critical time but that's just my opinion.

QF skywalker

Sinala1- No wonder you are a respected and intelligent CS. We have a duty of care and turning a blind eye is unacceptable.

Having been a crew member on a flight where an incident just like the one mentioned occurred, I will share my story.

On my flight the male pax grabbed the female pax's head and slammed it into the fuselage wall twice ( she was sitting in the 'A' seat). The other f/a I was working with witnessed the event ( 2 cabin crew operation ) including the surrounding pax.

The other f/a and I moved into the rear galley and quickly prepared a plan of how to relocate the lady. The other f/a was to inform the captain of our plan, whilst I spoke to several male pax in the rows behind asking for them to support me if the man tried to attack the pax again or the cabin crew.

We asked the female pax to move to the forward row and the man with her to remain in his seat and to not attempt to move. Whilst we relocated the lady I stood and blocked the aisle in between the rows were the pax were seated and continued this block for most of the flight - this would prevent access to the female pax concerned, or at least give time for the other pax and crew to help me before he could reach her.

On landing both pax were escorted off separtely by federal police and charges were laid.

A scary incident, but action had to be taken. Not sure how the crew of the flight who ignored the warnings of someone being treated violently in the cabin slept that night.

tezzer

I have to add, that this morning I am still disturbed by what I experienced last night.

Thinking more about it, they both took a couple of pills (no further detail) before the flight, taken from a rolled up tissue in the ladies handbag. Perhaps that combined with the alcohol had an effect on him / her / both.

That poor woman. Having said that, there are two sides to every story, and from my Seat 5C, across the aisle, I acould hear what he was saying / shouting, but apart from her repeated shouts for him to leave her alone, I couldn't hear the full dialogue.

I am however shocked and upset that the CC having witnessed it decided on no action. I for one would have been happy at the end of a 2 week business trip, and almost 36 hours travelling to drop into anywhere betwen DXB and MAN to drop them both off.

I am truly saddened and upset by what I saw last night, really I am.

A300Man

Was this an EK flight?

tezzer

Indeed it was.

sinala1

Respectfully, VS-LHRCSA, I am going to disagree with you on that one. I know you are one of the more intelligent and knowledgable contributers to the Cabin Crew forums, however on this point - even though I understand your motivation - I will disagree.

It would be negligent of crew to continue to serve alcohol to a passenger who was displaying any form of violence. If need be, the bar can be closed altogether to the entire aircraft - but to continue to serve alcohol to someone who is clearly intoxicated is not only illegal in Australia under both Responsible Service of Alcohol legislation, and our Civil Aviation Orders & Regulations; but I think its also potentially adding fuel to a situation thats already precarious. That said, I understand your point about not wanting to pis* off the violent pax even more.

QF Skywalker (one of the most experienced contributors to this forum) has, I believe, hit the nail on the head with his handling of the situation he had on the 2 Cabin Crew a/c. By conducting a briefing to the crew and then ABP's, before separating the 2 pax involved, it was ensured that the potential for the situation to get out of control in the cabin was minimised.

Personally, I think to take no action whatsoever would be to really turn your back on a fire and walk away from it, leaving it to do its own thing.

Nonetheless a very unpleasant situation for anyone to be in, and I would be interested to hear the Cabin Crew side of this story. There may well be more to it that we are not aware of here.

VS-LHRCSA

I take your point Sinala1 and I agree that cutting off alcohol is a what we are trained to do. My point is that actually doing it can be quite daunting in itself and each case is different. I had a flight once where the only solution was to cut off the booze to the entire cabin just to keep the peace. It worked. It saved us having to divert and I got a lot of positive feedback from other passengers when they disembarked.

Now that it has emerged that it was EK, I can see perhaps that it could well be a training issue combined with crew culture. Crew on other airlines that have a good 10-20 years flying experience may well have handled the situation differently than someone who has maybe 1-2 years experience. It may also be harder for them to shake off the "customer is god" attitude than perhaps a more hardened crew, if you know what I mean.

SkySista

I fully agree with QF & Sinala- situations such as this require a team effort and thorough communication.

I once experienced a similar situation on a flight. The man got worse verbally abusing the female pax and was making gestures as though he would hit her- holding onto her arms so she couldn't leave etc- I let the other crew know as soon as possible and we informed the cpatain that we would keep an eye on the situation, etc etc.

At one point the lady was upset, got up to leave and the male pushed her back into her seat. I happened to be walking by at the time and asked the lady to come with me, on the pretence of helping her with her child who had spilled something on the clothes and needed the bathroom.

We were able to separate them (by saying she could have more room in the back section of the plane to feed the toddler in privacy) without 'accusing' the guy or making him worse. In fact he seemed happy that we were helping her (as we would have done anyway) and it resolved the situation- it didn't escalate further and they actually thanked us as they left the plane. I can only imagine (from a few things th mother said) they had recently had a family tragedy along with the stress of travelling with a young child - not that it is any excuse- and as we all know some people act very strangely when flying.

No situation is the same and you really need to think on your feet, but in any case where alcohol is exacerbating the problem I have no hesitation in cutting off the bar- to the whole aircraft if necessary!! And as said before, 99% of pax will THANK you for doing it!!

sinala1

SkySista!


She Lives!!!!

I thought you had disappeared into the pprune wilderness....

Welcome Back

Juud

tezzer, seeing a person getting thumped in the face is upsetting. Having that happening in the closed confines of an aircraft cabin is even more so. been there, done that, got the broken jaw and the T-shirt.

Quote:

what should they / could they have done to end this

What they should have done has already been answered by other seasoned FAs here. Firstly, if handled properly, the situation would never have arisen. Secondly, once it did, stop the alcohol supply and verbally or by means of physical restraints immediately put an end to the violent behaviour.
A variation of the above is what would have happened on the majority of well run airlines.
Now why did that not happen on your flight, leaving you and most likely a great number of other pax, fairly upset?

Without having all the answers, I have some questions that might be worth considering.

• When an airline hires young people who want to work in customer service, and then trains them to provide that service to the max of their ability, these same people will need additional and thorough training for them to be able to make the switch between 'servile service provider' and 'authoritative safety professional'. Does EK provide such training?
• There are proven guidelines available to diffuse a situation of pax aggression. Does EK provide such an action matrix for its crews?
• When an FA cuts off booze to a drunk pax, or attempts to correct pax' behaviour, this will almost invariably lead to (written)complaints from that pax. Do EK flight attendants know for a fact that management will back them up afterwards, rather than criticising them for not adhering to the 'Customer=King' mode of behaviour?
• Who will sooner confront a man thumping a woman, a female FA from say Sweden who has been brought up in a society where men and women are considered equal, or a female FA raised in a society where women are considered worth less than men, and where it is deemed unseemly for a (young,poor) girl to contradict an (older,wealthier) man?
• Who is more likely to decisively & succesfully interfere in a situation like this; an experienced older FA or a young freshly out of line-training one?
• Do EK cabin crews have a seasoned, well trained Purser/Number 1/Senior FA at the head who is at all times willing and able to take command of situations where the younger FAs lose control?

As a final thought, it simply comes down to the form of the crew you catch that day. There's good, bad, strong and weak FAs in every airline, but when you pick your airline remember that there is more to consider than just the ticket price and number of free drinks.

TightSlot

Have to say that I've been hovering over a post on this thread for a while now (and also the same thread in Pax/SLF - dual posting is naughty tezzer...) - I waited, partly to see how it would progress and partly because I couldn't think how best to formulate an answer.

The good news is that Juud has now said it all, and I can't think of a way to improve on it.

For those of you that may be unfamiliar with what is going on with the Emirates Global recruitment push, take a (brief, I'd suggest, for your own sanity) look at the Emirates wannabees thread(s) in this forum: You can learn a lot about the average age, level of maturity and life experience of what Emirates (and other ME carriers) are recruiting at the moment. There are pages and pages of "woohoo I'm so excited!!!" comments, but ask yourself why, on three consecutive, multi-page threads there are never any questions about what is involved in actually doing the job.

Juud Rocks!!!

tezzer

Maybe "naughty" but I wanted two separate sets of feedback, both from CC proffesionals, as to their views on CC's and MY actions, i.e did I do enough ? and a SLF view.

Sorry for any "Naughtiness" !

japanair

Talking about crews attitude to situations I also have a point. I operated a flight as a foreign crew member in my previous airline and was almost assaulted by a pax as was my female colleague also a foreign national. We told the crew what had happened and asked them to explain to the passenger that this behaviour is unnacceptable(as we could not speak the language fluently). Our crew however told us to apologise to the passenger as we had obviously done something to make him act like this!!!

I agree when it was said that crew need to be able to adapt between service minded to safety professionals as at 40000ft there is really no margin for error. This airline, might I add, also allows passengers to consume there own alcohol on board and frequently promotes for passengers to drink until they become sick or aggressive.

dooday

After reading this thread, I agree to what Juud had said.

As a trainee for EY (actually I'm just about to start on the 9th...) I have a lot of expectations with regards to this 6 weeks training.

I have worked before with the hospitality industry and they have trained us with the differrent types of customer and I, for one, doesn't believe that customers are always correct or that they are king.

I hope the training of my soon to be company will provide me sufficient skills and knowledge in handling passengers in this kind of situation.

As what I have read with all the post with regards to being a CC, I know it's hard work, nerve racking, sleep-robbing job dealing with some foolish guests.

This will be a new challenge because I know you need to be tough being on this job.

sinala1

Yes, and it will probably take you a bit of time to learn what mix of Politeness vs Assertiveness is required for different situations. I have witnessed crew being, shall we say, "incredibly assertive" when requesting something as simple as pushing a bag under the seat. Assertiveness does not equal rudeness!

dooday

Thank you.

I'm really looking forward in learning all this things...

Godbless!!

freeonbail

this is why i will not operate flights to UK. worst passengers ever. either moaning or fighting...

Muizenberg

Another example of middle aged, new money Brits who can't control themselves when free or cheap alcohol is on offer.

See it all the time in Cape Town. These types have made the Tableview/Blaauwberg area Britrash central, esp @ "Blowfish" whilst they are all trying to out do each other when their friends/family are over.

Whilst sleeping tablets and alcohol may have an adverse effect on people, this is nothing new. This toxic combination has been covered in the press over and over again, including many incidents involving celebs..."I'd didn't realise" is no longer a valid excuse or reason.

Just a shame this didn't happen on an airline where the crew could have taken control of the situation, stopped the drinking, used restraint and pressed charges if necessary. After the event other customers and cabin crew will be the ones that suffer from flashbacks, fear of flying, etc.

The more I learn (and fly) EK the less I like them...all hype and no substance or back bone.