stansdead

scooby

I'm not angry. I just feel that speculation and gossip are NOT good starting points for strike action.

The misinformation that some cabin crew have about pretty much everything surrounding this dispute is staggering.

And that is why the whole situation is so sad. A properly organised and galvanised union would, in 16 months time (next pay deal) be able to demand far more respect. And probably more money too.

As you say, tomorrow is the final day of the ballot. I hope that as many people as possible vote, in order to ensure a representative result. For the cabin crew and everyone else involved in Virgin.

One way or another, we are in this together.

Shanwick Shanwick

Would HAVE expected.

Sorry, just had to..........

Ballot arrived this morning. Ticked NO and will be posted in the UK today. Unlikely to arrive before close of play tomorrow though.

Digitalis

jbflyer there has not been any reduction in pilot flying hours contracted in the last 10 years. In fact, it has increased from 650 to 750 hours - though that was a very long time ago. What has happened is that rostering and utilisation of pilots has changed to increase the average hours flown (ie productivity) by some 25%, and much closer to that 750-hour contractural limit. In addition, many of the extra payments that CC still enjoy were withdrawn from pilots and added to the basic salary pot. At no point have the pilots threatened or ballotted for industrial action.

Scooby and Stansdead there is an ongoing conversation between BALPA and the pilots about what changes pilots would like to see in their terms and conditions. That conversation is held via the BALPA website forums, in which intelligent, calm and rational discussions occur covering all aspects of the pilots' lot, and the Company in general. So, yes, research and opinion-collecting goes on all the time. Pilots' expectations of pay negotiations are well-informed by factual research into the Company itself, the industry and the wider economy, which is gathered both by individuals and the Union, and presented clearly and unambiguously to the Union membership - and is not fed by gossip! That way, pilots will not be led to believe that there is a chance of a large pay rise when there patently is not! In any case, the pilots are now more or less where they feel they should be in relation to the industry pay norms, and that is why future negotiations will concentrate on lifestyle issues (rostering etc).

Unite has failed spectacularly to inform its membership, gather their opinions, and guide their expectations realistically. It has no clear idea what it expects to achieve by industrial action, and seems not to have adequately informed its membership about the risks of such action at a time when the entire airline industry is facing a major economic downturn, and when the Company itself is already well short of its earning potential. In other words, the timing is bad and you don't collectively know what you're trying to achieve, therefore the action is highly likely to fail. Possibly disastrously.

Litebulbs

"Lifestyle" changes to pilots terms and conditions will still come at a cost. If you believe the VS management team that there is no more money in the pot, then these lifestyle changes will not happen. If they are no cost items, then why wait for a pay claim?

So what the pilot community should then do, is regroup and then wait for 09 or 10.

Or not!

stansdead

Digitalis

As a BALPA member, I am well aware of our website and I am well aware of the fact that some pilots have put "wishlist" ideas to our CC via that facility.

However, that is NOT what scoobydoo was referring to. At no point have we been told by our CC what they are going to negotiate with management over. Nor have negotiations begun yet.

Please don't give scooby more to speculate with. The fact are exactly as I said they were.

vsfsm

I think SCOOBY is still forgeting that Unite proposed an acceptance of the last deal in order to regroup for the next set of talks in 9 months time. They did this by several letters to all members addresses and several posts on the Unite web site. Also all reps were taken of flying rosters for a month(like it or not)to attend all crew rooms. Between 13 reps they made sure that there were at least 2 reps at LHR between 7am and 7pm every day of the month. There was also atleast 1 rep at LGW every day of the month and a rep attended MAN for a week untill all MAN crew had been advised.The base was also covered.

You seem to have some problem understanding the effort our reps make. I believe that comes down to an attitude that is saddly prevelent in the pilot community that says all things cabin crew will always be inferior to all things pilot. Its a prehistoric attitude but none the less it is still there and until it is gone completely there will always be a devide. You will never fully understand what is or isn't important to cabin crew and so you will never understand how our union negotiates.

Also, as long as large elements of your pay are based on profit cabin crew will always find it hard to believe that your advise comes from the heart and not the pocket.

In The Pink

If the current ballot is a no and the Pilots then go after an RPI plus lifestyle "enhancements" deal...Virgin thinks it has Cabin Crew problems now.....

stansdead

In the Pink

If you vote NO to a strike, then you accept the money and enter into negotiations with VS again in 2009.

If you vote YES to strike, then it's up to either the cabin crew or VS to negotiate again and SOON, or to wait for one or the other to blink during a strike. The company are well aware of the fact that the cabin crew are peeved currently.

Either way, it's nothing to do with Pilot pay negotiations.

BostonBill

In reading VSFSMs post, it is clear that the union reps did their best to promote and publicise the sanctioned deal to cabin crew. The company also tried its best to learn the expectations of the crew both through the union and through iFly.

The problem is not so much in promotion of the deal, it is in managing how it is received, interpreted and understood. GalleyFM is the tool by which many of the crew base their understanding of how the company works. Where galleyFM is fuelled with inaccurate rumours (such as the one on cabincrew.com about CPMs getting a 7% payrise!!!!) then this can only be detrimental to the whole campaign regardless of which side of the fence you are sitting.

Text messaging, forums, galleyFM, rumour, fact and fiction have all been added together and confusion abounds. The results of the ballot will no doubt have a significant effect on the future of the airline either way.

How can we all work together to ensure that accurate information is spread consistently and openly next time, so that the negotiations and proposed solutions are given fair consideration? Suggestions on a postcard please....

SLT

This thread has been a very interesting read, and I have to say that some of my opinions have been confirmed while others have been altered by what's been said here - from both sides. Which is a good thing. I haven't posted my own thoughts here because in general they've been so eloquently put forward by Kasual Observer, Tags, Digitalis and others....

However, the last couple of paragraphs from vsfsm can't really be allowed to slip by.....

I don't think anyone here is in any doubt as to the effort that the cabin crew reps have made. Being a union rep is virtually a full time job in and of itself - I know how hard our own BALPA guys work on our behalf and we are all heartily thankful to them for that.

However - your assertion that there is a perception within the pilot community that all things crew will forever be inferior to all things pilot is so wide of the mark it's untrue. If that's what you really think then sadly you haven't understood us at all..... Flying is a team sport - always has been and always will be. The pilots at Virgin have given the crew their support, their advice when asked for it, and have stood right behind you up to this point. All we are hoping to achieve by these discussions is make sure that as many crew as possible make an informed decision based on fact, not the endless run of drivel that is Galley FM. You as crew have to make your own decision based on what you really believe, with all the facts to hand and having examined the pros and the cons. Informed debate - that's all we're trying to achieve.....

If you feel we don't understand what's important to you guys then inform us! From conversations I've had, very few people seem to know what they want out of this. A few have a clear picture of what's acceptable but I'd say over 90% of the crew I've spoken to have no idea of what would make the pay deal acceptable for them. Galley FM adds to the confusion with absolute rubbish being reported as "fact" and then no one's any idea which way to go. And as for "the way your union negotiates", it may sound a little harsh to say, but if how they've negotiated this shambles is how "they do it" then they don't seem to be very sure themselves, and I'm certainly glad they don't represent us.... That's something I certainly hope will be addressed by the members once a solution is reached to the current situation. It's plain that Unite have not served you well....

That's not a belief I've even heard put forward before. I'm sorry if that's what you believe but as has been said before - we're all in this together. Company does well - we all do well, do badly - we all do badly. Anyway - what profit????

I hope everyone uses their vote in whichever direction they believe is best. Merry Christmas everyone!!!

vsfsm

Sorry SLT

I guess i meant that this attitude of everything cabin crew is inferior is not prevelent but none the less does exist and can be felt on occasion.

I stand by my comment about never being able to fully understanding what is important to cabin crew is correct, as i'm sure you'll agree a crew member will never fully understand what is important to a pilot.
You never know a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes an all that sort of thing.
Stories of pilots ordering their own more expensive wine at crew meals but then expecting to split the bill don't help amongst other things.

I am aware that we have a good relationship between crew and pilot at this company but there will always be some kind of divide when one group is earning £100k + and others are earning £10-12k. I hope that changes but deep down it is still there to an extent.

Litebulbs

Hi VSFSM
I thing a quick spelling edit may be required, before the grammar police start flaming!

vsfsm

I get a bit carried away sometimes.

Digitalis

Stansdead I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you weren't in grasp of the facts, I was simply trying to explain that, even though no formal negotiations are in place or imminent, the pilot workforce and BALPA are constantly in public discussion about the wants, needs and desires of the pilots, and that thus any preparations for negotiation are already well-informed. There seems to be no comparable dialogue between the CC and their Union, which has hampered the Union's efforts to relay its membership's feelings to the Company. That needs addressing well before any future negotiations.

vsfm As I said in an earlier post, this is not a dispute between the pilots and the CC. Far from it; many of our number have CC partners and are getting this almost at first hand. We also spend much time trying to explain the various deals and ramifications of those deals, particularly to the younger, less knowledgable CC. From these discussions, it seems that your Union reps have been giving conflicting advice; indeed, it would seem that some have been openly in disagreement with the Union, which is hardly helpful for the membership - the time for disagreement is behind closed doors. Once a Union policy has been agreed, all the reps should publicly back and follow that policy. That seems not to have happened.

As for part of our pay being profit-related, that is true. But so is yours - all of it!

vs_lhr

Litebulbs, there's really no need for the sarcasm. My advice regarding well constructed posts was offered in good faith.

SLT

Hi vsfsm
Apology accepted! I take your point about not wholly understanding the individual importance of certain issues - 'twas ever thus but I think we're getting there! As you say - we do have a good relationship between pilots and crew in our company and long may that continue and continue to improve! It's only through talking to each other we can gain a greater understanding of each other's viewpoint. And more importantly - we can gain a greater sense of teamwork not just in our daily duties, but also for when we need to stand together as a workforce.... The incidents that drive us apart eg. wine at the dinner table are mercifully few and far between and I think we all long for the day when they are a dim and distant memory.... Let's not let a few bad apples spoil a rather nice barrel....

Anyway - back to the thread!!! Good luck everyone in whatever direction you decide to take...... I'll get back in my box now!!

scoobydooo

I think it was a joke vslhr, come on now, everyone's getting uptight - it's nearly Christmas We all work together, we all want what we believe we deserve, we all have differing views on how this can be achieved and no one view will ever be the correct view, that's what makes for great discussion, fact & a bit of speculation on a rumour network occasionally add a bit of passion and it gets heated now and then and mod comes in with a bucket of cold water.

Looking fwd to the result, hope a lot of ballots were returned, and whatever the outcome I have enjoyed engaging with all concerned.

Litebulbs

Hmm, I do like a bit of moderation! Banned for a day. Ho Hum, well what can you do.

My bet is 4.6% and no strings. Compromise on both sides.

vsfsm

Her we go here we go here we go


I'm predicting 58% of the returned ballots in favour of action.

I still think there will be about 5 or 600 non returned ballots but i'm coming to grips with the nature of our comunity and the fact that a lot of them really can't be ed

Good luck everyone, including VS i suppose. Whatever happens, happens.

Justanotherpax

I'm hoping your wish of good luck extends to us customers with bookings in early January! What with this and the threatened BAA strike, our one little getaway of the year is looking doomed.

I fully appreciate your position, and your need to stand up for yourselves, I hope you guys can work something out with management.

I'm looking forward to being taken care of by some of you very soon, you do a great job and rest assured it REALLY IS appreciated by the vast majority of your customers. (And yes, I am one of the ones that says thankyou on the way off!)

I also hope the union acts in your best interest, and isn't just in this for the fight......