Single Men and Minors
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Single Men and Minors
Picking up on recent Unaccompanied Minors threads:
On a recent transatlantic flight, we had a huge upheaval because a single male passenger decided to move seats to be in an aisle, and sat himself next to two (male) unaccompanied minors. They were aged 12 and 13. Because the airline says this must not happen, the Purser insisted the man should move, causing a huge, ugly scene in the cabin. It wasn't the Purser's fault, except that she was being a bit slavish to the rules... But surely this is a ridiculous situation.
What are other airlines' policies? How rigorously do cabin crew enforce them?
My own view is that, Yes, sure, we should be sensible. But when it comes to an open assumption that all men are potential, if not actual, child abusers, isn't there an argument for individual discretion? Or perhaps the airlines feel their employees are too stupid for that, and must be given a Hard-and-Fast rule, however ludicrous or embarrassing...?
- JS
On a recent transatlantic flight, we had a huge upheaval because a single male passenger decided to move seats to be in an aisle, and sat himself next to two (male) unaccompanied minors. They were aged 12 and 13. Because the airline says this must not happen, the Purser insisted the man should move, causing a huge, ugly scene in the cabin. It wasn't the Purser's fault, except that she was being a bit slavish to the rules... But surely this is a ridiculous situation.
What are other airlines' policies? How rigorously do cabin crew enforce them?
My own view is that, Yes, sure, we should be sensible. But when it comes to an open assumption that all men are potential, if not actual, child abusers, isn't there an argument for individual discretion? Or perhaps the airlines feel their employees are too stupid for that, and must be given a Hard-and-Fast rule, however ludicrous or embarrassing...?
- JS
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From: CYTZ
Rather absurd. Two questions for the geniuses who dreamed up this policy:
1) With all the antidiscrimination laws on the books, aren't they worried about a lawsuit from a male pax who gets bumped because of their policy? Mind you, with the legal climate nowadays just about any business decision is a case of doomed if you do, doomed if you don't.
2) If they're really concerned about the kids' safety perhaps they shouldn't allow family members to travel with them- in the overwhelming majority of cases where kids are victims of crime the guilty party is their own mother.
1) With all the antidiscrimination laws on the books, aren't they worried about a lawsuit from a male pax who gets bumped because of their policy? Mind you, with the legal climate nowadays just about any business decision is a case of doomed if you do, doomed if you don't.
2) If they're really concerned about the kids' safety perhaps they shouldn't allow family members to travel with them- in the overwhelming majority of cases where kids are victims of crime the guilty party is their own mother.
Medicinal Moderatreuse
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Interestingly, there appears to have been an alleged assault on a NorthWest flight recently (see Rumours and News).
Agreed that most assaults are carried out by someone known to the child (not sure where you got the idea it was the mother, Squawk - everything I've read has suggested male family friends and stepfathers figure more prominently in statistics). However, I guess, as FA's, your job is ultimately passenger safety and comfort, and for UM's, that involves more than just giving them colouring in pencils and a coke. You are there to cater for the needs of the passengers, whatever their age. Therefore, in order to fulfil your duty of care, if that involves moving passengers, then so be it, unless you can think of another way of managing it?
I don't think it's fair for males to be thought of as guilty before proven innocent by the way. Perhaps a by-product of an overly litigious society?
Agreed that most assaults are carried out by someone known to the child (not sure where you got the idea it was the mother, Squawk - everything I've read has suggested male family friends and stepfathers figure more prominently in statistics). However, I guess, as FA's, your job is ultimately passenger safety and comfort, and for UM's, that involves more than just giving them colouring in pencils and a coke. You are there to cater for the needs of the passengers, whatever their age. Therefore, in order to fulfil your duty of care, if that involves moving passengers, then so be it, unless you can think of another way of managing it?
I don't think it's fair for males to be thought of as guilty before proven innocent by the way. Perhaps a by-product of an overly litigious society?
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From: CYTZ
Min, most child assaults murders are committed by the mothers- not that they're particularly dangerous, just that they spend the most time with the kids so the law of averages kicks in. Think of the SC woman who dumped her car in a lake with the kids in it, or the Texas woman who admitted to drowning her five kids, one at a time (and will probably get away with it, but that's a whole 'nother rant). I looked at the child murders here in Toronto over the past decade and saw 4 mothers, 2 stepfathers, 1 stepmother. No strangers among the perps. The airline's policy of segregating single males is no different from a lot of other measures seen these days- they were never intended to enhance safety, they are only in place for the sake of lawyers and paranoid parents.
Medicinal Moderatreuse
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Sorry...I was referring to stats for sexual assaults as this was in reference to the assualt on the NW flight. Put the lack of clarity down to a lack of sleep on my part!
I suppose at the end of the day, you need to do what you think is in the child's best interests. Whilst some at age 10 are quite mature, others aren't, and if unaccompanied, they probably need you to act as their advocate in situations where their safety is a concern. Rule of thumb should be to treat them as you would like your own child/niece/whatever to be treated...I'm not advocating that people should be moved or whatever. I agree that paranoia sometimes results in extreme measures being taken without little justification. But I would be surprised if that's the only thing that could be done.
I suppose at the end of the day, you need to do what you think is in the child's best interests. Whilst some at age 10 are quite mature, others aren't, and if unaccompanied, they probably need you to act as their advocate in situations where their safety is a concern. Rule of thumb should be to treat them as you would like your own child/niece/whatever to be treated...I'm not advocating that people should be moved or whatever. I agree that paranoia sometimes results in extreme measures being taken without little justification. But I would be surprised if that's the only thing that could be done.
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From: CYTZ
Agree with you there, min. If a kid gets attacked on the plane, we should look at it the way we look at crashes- a chain of events, break one link and it won't happen. In the case of the alleged assault, if true then the parents and CC didn't brief the kid adequately (she should have been aware that the FAs could help), and the FAs should have been a bit more vigilant. I know the CC don't have an easy job but is it really too much to look in on the kid once in a while?
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Min, I see that NW case is as yet only an accusation. Funnily enough, it reminds me hugely of an incident on one of our flights last year. Two teenage girls (who happened also to be American) made a similar accusation against a man (who happened also to be Asian) sitting next to them. It started as a timid suggestion; their mother became increasingly frenzied and by the time we landed they were near-hysterical and the police were called.
Interestingly, I haven't heard or seen anything more about it.
Interestingly, I haven't heard or seen anything more about it.
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From: Europe
I think the main concern should be the kid's safety. Would you, as a mother/father be rhappy knowing that your son/daughter could be sitting next to any nutter who wants to move next to them?
Of course FA have to look after them, but it is not always possible to check as the situation would require. In a company I used to work for, a male pax moved next two UM and did some very explicit things before he was discovered by a FA.
I sure wouldn't let my son/daughter fly alone knowing that the company hasn't the policy of not allowing stranger pax next to him/her.
And knowing that lots of parents harm their children is not a good argument to let your child alone among strangers.
Of course FA have to look after them, but it is not always possible to check as the situation would require. In a company I used to work for, a male pax moved next two UM and did some very explicit things before he was discovered by a FA.
I sure wouldn't let my son/daughter fly alone knowing that the company hasn't the policy of not allowing stranger pax next to him/her.
And knowing that lots of parents harm their children is not a good argument to let your child alone among strangers.
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From: Colton, CA
I think, in the case of the NW incident, the guy's "goose is cooked" because he's admitted in a statement that he touched the girl. Whether he felt it was appropriate or not is not really the issue. He supposedly said the flight was experiencing some severe turbulence and he touched her on the upper thigh to "reassure her." Come on. Cultural diversity or not, there is no excuse for that. The guy was from India. Maybe that's appropriate behavior in India, but it isn't in the U.S. He should have been practicing the "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" approach to living in a foreign country.
Call me a bigot if you wish, but IMHO, that's part of the problem with this massive influx of unbridled immigration in the last few years. We're supposed to accept everything as part of "cultural diversity." Give me a break. I think there was a case in Ohio a few years ago of the local community voicing outrage over some African immigrants practicing genitial circumcision on their young females because, after all, that's accepted practice in their "mother country." To what extent do we have to accomodate "cultural diversity"?
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: ONTpax ]
Call me a bigot if you wish, but IMHO, that's part of the problem with this massive influx of unbridled immigration in the last few years. We're supposed to accept everything as part of "cultural diversity." Give me a break. I think there was a case in Ohio a few years ago of the local community voicing outrage over some African immigrants practicing genitial circumcision on their young females because, after all, that's accepted practice in their "mother country." To what extent do we have to accomodate "cultural diversity"?
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: ONTpax ]
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Most of the posts talk of moving the male pax away. An easier option I find is to move the UM's. Move them on some pretext (nearer to the galley where you can keep a better eye on them). However if this seating thing is such an issue why not block off one row until last minute which could be used for UM's? After all we're only allowed two per crew on our flights. If the row isn't used for UM's then you can fill it with those pax who are about to be bumped off due to overselling or staff standby's or last minute check ins.
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From: Europe
squawk,
If you read my post carefully you will notice I never used a gender, but talked about "strangers". I referred to a male only when it was something I witnessed.
Mainfrog,
the cases we were referring to are about pax moving from their assigned seat next to the UM.
If you read my post carefully you will notice I never used a gender, but talked about "strangers". I referred to a male only when it was something I witnessed.
Mainfrog,
the cases we were referring to are about pax moving from their assigned seat next to the UM.
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Gentle question, Flyblue: Would you be happy to think that your son might accidentally find himself sitting next to an adolescent girl who decided to accuse him of touching her up?
Yes, children must be protected. But should that swing over into an assumption that no-one under the age of 18 can tell a lie, exaggerate or just be confused? Or grateful for a bit of attention?
Many weird bits of earthbound human interaction seem to be intensified in that tube at 38000 ft...
It still seems, IMHO, that the best measure is to give FAs the chance to use their judgement and common sense, rather than having to move any single male seated next to UMs, regardless.
Yes, children must be protected. But should that swing over into an assumption that no-one under the age of 18 can tell a lie, exaggerate or just be confused? Or grateful for a bit of attention?
Many weird bits of earthbound human interaction seem to be intensified in that tube at 38000 ft...
It still seems, IMHO, that the best measure is to give FAs the chance to use their judgement and common sense, rather than having to move any single male seated next to UMs, regardless.
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From: Europe
Fact is, dear Jungle strip, that I am not really concerned about grown ups, as they are grown ups and can defend themselves. At least they know what they can expect from people: harm, even if not done on purpose as you suggest.
I think yours is a nonexistent problem compared to a child being put in the situation we were talking about.
And I sure wouldn't rely on any FA's (or anyone of any other profession's) good judgment "only" when it comes up to my kid.
And, again, no one is talking to move male pax generally, but just the ones who MOVE next to UM.
I think yours is a nonexistent problem compared to a child being put in the situation we were talking about.
And I sure wouldn't rely on any FA's (or anyone of any other profession's) good judgment "only" when it comes up to my kid.
And, again, no one is talking to move male pax generally, but just the ones who MOVE next to UM.
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From: Pudsey, Leeds, West Yorkshire
Last year I was flying with my family from Heathrow to Edinburgh with BA, and after we had boarded and settled down,I was asked if my 12 years old son would move and sit some distance away with 2 x UM girls. I was very impressed with the way it was handled by the cabin crew, who were obviously ill at ease about this regulation. On the plus side, my son was able to gain a visit to the flight deck as a result,( yes, he now wants to be an airline pilot!!!but hates girls even more!!) However, we really felt sorry for the poor guy who then had to move and sit with us, as he was very embarrassed. Couldn't this have been sorted out before we loaded, as the check-in-desk staff, I guess, were aware that there were two UM girls travelling?
Still behind the curtain
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From: Arizona, USA
Well, as the original perpetrator on Rumors and then it was switched to Miscellaneous matters, I'm still much alive and I appreciate you guys carrying on this thread.
How to move the PAX? I know that BA has a program that no single male PAX is allowed to sit next to an unaccompaied child. But then again, I read in your above postings that in some cases women are not much better.
I tend to disagree with the woman bashers. There may be deep psychological problems why they kill their children, but I think that sexual perversion has been, on the whole, more associated with men. Pardon the expression, but I think that men get more of a hard-on than women get a G-spot erection.
Even after my original posting on this subject there were several replies that this kind of thing happens occasionaly on aircraft. After going through some search engines, I was surprised that it happens more often than not.
So what do we do about it? We don't want Dr. Kevorkian's lawyer to sue NW for $20+ million or so, unless the passenger next to the girl was actually a perp.
Actually, I also don't agree with the defendant's statement that TWICE he had to hold he girl's upper thigh to calm her down because of air turbulence. As I explained in the other site, my first reaction would be to hold her shoulder and then her hand -- if asked.
I think that this court case, if it comes to that, will be a major guideline for airlines.
How to move the PAX? I know that BA has a program that no single male PAX is allowed to sit next to an unaccompaied child. But then again, I read in your above postings that in some cases women are not much better.
I tend to disagree with the woman bashers. There may be deep psychological problems why they kill their children, but I think that sexual perversion has been, on the whole, more associated with men. Pardon the expression, but I think that men get more of a hard-on than women get a G-spot erection.
Even after my original posting on this subject there were several replies that this kind of thing happens occasionaly on aircraft. After going through some search engines, I was surprised that it happens more often than not.
So what do we do about it? We don't want Dr. Kevorkian's lawyer to sue NW for $20+ million or so, unless the passenger next to the girl was actually a perp.
Actually, I also don't agree with the defendant's statement that TWICE he had to hold he girl's upper thigh to calm her down because of air turbulence. As I explained in the other site, my first reaction would be to hold her shoulder and then her hand -- if asked.
I think that this court case, if it comes to that, will be a major guideline for airlines.
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From: CYTZ
I think that this court case, if it comes to that, will be a major guideline for airlines.
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Exrotary: At risk of repeating myself, in a few years, your son could find himself sitting next to two similar girls.. And be accused of molesting them. Would you admire the airline's handling so much then?
Squawk 8888: You have a point. No airline will carry UMs. Great for us FAs..! Here's hoping...
Squawk 8888: You have a point. No airline will carry UMs. Great for us FAs..! Here's hoping...
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From: Pudsey, Leeds, West Yorkshire
Jungle Strip: Sorry, the point I was trying to make was that the seating on the 737 was 3 and 3, and with a bit of planning before loading, couldn't my family have been seated so that we occupied the same set of six seats as the UMs? In that case my 9 years old daughter could have sat next to the UMs and still been within speaking distance of us. That way, the FAs wouldn't have had to play musical chairs at their busiest time.
I take your point about my son in the future; I'm sure his attitude to girls will have changed,( I hope!), and I also hope, by then, they will have sorted out this problem to everyones' satisfaction! Your post should help.
I take your point about my son in the future; I'm sure his attitude to girls will have changed,( I hope!), and I also hope, by then, they will have sorted out this problem to everyones' satisfaction! Your post should help.