***WARNING; Women Empowering Women and other thieving pyramid scams!***

[Low_and_Slow]

One of the main contributing factors towards the failure of this type of thing is people giving it bad press.

Not a contributing factor, it just hastens the inevidible (and thus minimizes the number of people harmed). The main contributing factor to their failure is that it's a mathematical certainty that you will, sooner rather than later, run out of people.

Consider one where you "invest" 100GBP and get back 1000GBP. For this to work, each person at level n needs 10 people at level n+1. Thus in 10 levels the entire population of the earth will be involved (10^10>>human population). Most of those people will have put money in without getting any out. Now what, we recruit the ferengi?? (the vulcans are too smart for this one).

Illegal in the US and I suspect in the UK too, and with good reason.

Consider that when you "invested" you didn't know the height of the tree or the height it would attain. The only person who didn't have a good change of loosing their money is the person at the top of the pyramid (the convention, possibly because pyramids are point up, is that new people are added at the bottom). Of course they risk loosing other things. I have to assume that at least the lower echelon cabin crew manager who started it in Danny's company will get his/her cumupance when all his/her subordinants and friends are left holding the bag. How long before he/she becomes so reviled that productivity suffers

Black Barron wrote
I have to say, I'm SHOCKED at your sexist and nasty comments.....You've made your point in the most HORRID way, insulting as many women as you possibly can,

Are you referring to

It is being aimed at 'mathematically challenged' women who cannot see further than the glossy brochures.

In defense of Danny, while he could have phrased it better, given the passions involved I see nothing mysogonistic in this comment. This particular scheme is being aimed at Women (not men) and it is obviously aimed at those will little mathematical sophistication (or alternatively those who got in early, who understand what is going on, and who have underdeveloped senses of morality). It says nothing about the frequency of mathematical unsophistication in the female populace. Also the other posts have confirmed at least as many schemes preying on the large numbers of men who are mathematically challenged.

Check out Women Empowering Womenfor some details of this scheme

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]

[wideaisle]

Just to put you all back on the rails whatever your view. This is not illegal in the U.K. as per trading standards statement. But hey never let the facts get in the way of a good slagging off!

[Sick Squid]

OK Wideaisle, in the interests of balance, perhaps you or another supporter would care to provide your interpretation of why these schemes are a good thing.

This last week has been one of the hardest personally for me, as I have been forced to learn the intricacies of these schemes and their impact, in the process discovering that my wife lost a lot of money in one in the 80's... something I did not know about. From a position of vague awareness following the first post (by Wideaisle) I now consider myself up-to-speed with them.

Conversely, I have received several e-mails that highlight a different side to this story, almost all saying "please don't provide negative publicity, or I will lose my money." In some cases, partners have not been informed about the "investment."
There is a lot under the surface.....

This has provided a human side to what is not a simple black and white issue. Why are they a good thing in your opinion?

The floor is yours.

£6

[Capt PPRuNe]

The Black Baron if you'd care to do a tiny bit of research into the problem, just click on a few of the links provided in this thread, you would see what I am on about. One thing for sure is I am not sexist and rather than harp on about it just read what What was the DH again????? posted in my defense.

The scheme is aimed at women by other women using terminology like 'empowerment'. Nowhere did I say that all women were mathematically challenged, only those who go into this scheme more than two or three layers down the pyramid. If you think that is 'horrid' then so be it but I am actually trying to promote awareness of this scam.

This thread has not deleted any of the quotes and it is a 'discussion' of the topic. What I will not allow though is a thread titled 'Get rich quick' and then have the first post promote this scam. This way at least there is an awareness campaign and links to sites that go into great detail that explain why these are scams.

There are also many schemes that suck in mathematically challenged men. Same applies here. As I said in my previous post "Proves to me that there will always be enough gullible people to be taken for a ride by those clever and corrupt enough to get in quick." There are also silly men getting women to invest on their behalf in this current scam so I must be an equal opportunity sexist!

[mallard]

Is it true? Is it not illegal in the UK?
I saw them trying to defend it on TV and even here on pprune and am amazed at human gullibility.
I have experience of Amway (which is perfectly legal but morally suspect) so I have a deep understanding of the Psychology involved.
Norfolk and Airspeed has a couple of links which you all really ought to check out. Well done mate.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for those caught in the spell but I have to tell those of you crowing about the money you have made, you should blush with shame and return the money to your equally gullible victims who are highly unlikelr to see any return on their greedy "investment".
There has never been a similar scheme which did not end in tears.
Are you sure it's not illegal?

[Avtrician]

Pyramid Schemes are illegal in Australia and so they should be.

Amway actualy sells a product, however is a Pyramid in that the Idea is to recruit more sellers so that you move up the chain and get a cut of the sellers money.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Wideaisle, of course it is illegal. It's fraud - nothing to do with trading standards where on earth did you get that info from? It is not a trade, except in people's misery, and it is not an investment? Where is the company? Like someone said "there are none so blind as they who cannot see."

Just take a look at this little article written by Tony Hetherington in The Fiancial Mail last Sunday.

I make no apologies for placing it here verbatim.

Mrs C.A.L. writes: I am writing about your article of June 17, when you describe Women Empowering Women as Women Ripping Off Women. You presented this scheme as foul. It is nothing of the sort. It differs from pyramid schemes as they work by having one controlling member who gets most of the proceeds. With WEW, the receiver of monies changes constantly and the aim is for everyone to benefit. Most men cannot comprehend a scheme that is largely based on trust. Most of the bad press articles are written by men. I am aware you will not publish this letter."

Yours is not the only letter I have received that suggests that as a man, I cannot understand Women Empowering Women. However, one or two writers say they believe I secretly know the scheme works, and I am part of a male conspiracy to crush it and keep women poor.

Leaving the paranoia aside, mathematics are the same for both sexes. Women Empowering Women involves handing over £3,000 in the hope that eight new recruits will eventually give you a total of £24,000.

It follows that they will need 64 recruits to pay them, and this next tier will need 512, who will need 4,096 - and so on. For every winner there must be eight losers. (my bolds)
If you don't believe me, visit the Isle of Wight, where the scheme started in the UK. Some women there are in despair after borrowing the £3000 on their credit cards to take part.

Or read the warning article that appeared on June 28 in The Mail on Sunday's sister paper, the London Evening Standard. Reporting that some women in the scheme are now suing each other, Emily Sheffield revealed that one lady is even taking her own bridesmaid to court!

And Emily Sheffield is not a man.
____________________________________________

What do you think now wideaisle? What will anybody think? Please say it is common sense.

As those that care have been saying these past days, the mathematics make it impossible to work for those in the higher tiers. IMPOSSIBLE - if you see my point!

It's deception but few people see it until it hits them. Then when their pride gets hurt they want their money back. Few, if any, ever get it back. It's a scam.

I repeat, "there are none so blind as they who cannot see."

[swashplate]

Interesting thread.

About 4 years ago, (just before I moved from Oldham), I recieved one of these letters.
Can't remember the exact title but it was something like the 'Sir John Scruggs ' buisiness plan or something like that.

You sent off £10 for some info ('how to market your product' that type of thing) and then sent it to 10 friends who would each pay you £10 etc etc.

It was all very glossy and proffesional looking. I have to admit I was tempted. However, I was moving to start the new job so decided to do this down in Luton. With moving etc. it got forgotten about.....

AND I AM BLOODY GLAD!!!!

I have just read this thread & links and went quite cold when I considered what I could have done.

IMHO the only 'women' empowered by this are the clever ones who started the scheme!!!

..and are you sure they're women....!!!!


Thank god for PPRuNe.....Thank god for the web.........!!!!


NO WAY I'll get caught like that. Shall inform my friends.......suggest everyone who reads this posts a link!

[speedygonzales]

If Nothing to Declare and certain others on this post cannot see that this scam is pure theft then I am amazed and disappointed. If any of them holds the Queen's Commission they should should resign forthwith

My wife was suborned by a family friend to part with £3000 while I was away on a trip. What was the result. The person who started it the heart chain got £24,000 and lost eight life long friends. We are now aware of dozens of people who have lost money.

This is a nasty, grubby, dishonest scam.

[swashplate]

Additional:
http://w3.one.net/%7Ebanks/webscam.htm

Interesting stuff......

[SLT]

Or try this one for some food for thought!!!!
Pyramid Schemes

[Arhedis_Varkenjaab]

Apparently, this WEW scheme originated from the IOW and is spreading fast! Such schemes resurface every few years under different names (read swashplates post and the links provided) and lure people into believing that they will make X times the amount they put into it!

Taken from the BBC news - Business website.

… Thousands took part
The local Trading Standards office estimates thousands of people took part, with the office having taken over a hundred calls, mostly from people who claimed to be friends or relatives of those who had got involved.
"I had a great deal of difficulty explaining to people why eventually this doesn't work. It is a case of wishful thinking really taking over from critical analysis. When they started up, there were payouts, there were people receiving £24,000. If you are gullible, that is proof to you that the schemes work," Stone said.
One week the NatWest had so many withdrawals of £3,000 that it was concerned its branches would run out of money.
But, like all pyramid schemes, it was doomed to fail ultimately, because - very quickly - you run out of people to get new money from.

.... Legal minefield

It is unclear what action can be taken as the scheme doing the rounds on the Isle of Wight means it is classified as a pyramid scheme or chain letter, rather than pyramid selling.

The latter involves sale of a product and is governed by trading regulations. The Isle of Wight scheme falls outside of the trading regulations as there is no product sale involved.

However, chain letters inviting participants to send money are probably illegal under the Lotteries and Amusements Act of 1974...

Ok, so this particular scheme is aimed at women and it is obvious how it has managed to enter the airline industry and particularly amongst Cabin Crew!! (-just to clear this point up I’m talking about the ‘sister-hood’ attitude not people’s mentality-).

For those considering entering the scheme. please please, take a step back and think logically:

a. Where all this money you will supposedly ‘earn’ is coming from. i.e. all your friends and family that YOU are urging to join!!!!!!!
b. What happens if you are stuck in the pyramid when it collapses (because it will eventually collapse).
c. Although you might have heard of people that came out of these schemes with large amounts of cash think of the people that are too embarrassed to admit that they have lost their money (Or they just want to forget about it)!

Even thought I disagree with the language used by Capt PPRuNe about his colleague, the fact still remains that such Get Rich Quick schemes, WEW pyramids or chain letters (whatever you wish to call them) are ripping thousands of people off!!!

..Take Care.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Arhedis_Varkenjaab ]

[fireflybob]

I am not a distributor for Amway but please do not confuse a legitimate multi level (or network) marketing operation with these money scams.

Multi level marketing companies operate under the Pyramid Selling Regulations which are part of the Fair Trading Act which incorporates safeguards for distributors and customers.

As has been said before, there is nothing new in these money schemes and buyer should beware! There will inevitably be losers simply because not everyone will be in a position to "recruit" the right number of people. However, "saturation" is a myth and has yet to occur with any of these schemes and, yes, I know you can prove it mathematically but the fact is that, in reality, it does not occur. The money schemes break down for other reasons - no written contract, bad publicity, etc.

[RICKO]

Reading these posts tonight could not have come at a more apt time.
I have just talked my Wife and her mates out of parting with £3k.
This WEW pyramid has hit Staffordshire big time.No one can afford to lose that sort of money but more importantly no one deserves to lose so many friends over money.

[qfcabin]

This all has an awful, familiar ring to it.We had similar schemes through Aust several years ago..almost identical in fact..and after massive publicity of the impossibility of the schemes generating profits for all participants, and proof that lower levels were obviously subsidising upper levels, government stepped in and outlawed the whole "pyramid" concept.

[curmudgeon]

If you are thinking of ‘investing’ in one of these schemes, do remember that its exactly the same as persuading 8 of your friends to give you GBP 3,000, without any obligation on your part to give it back. For them to recover the money, they have to persuade at least 1 out of 8 of their other friends to do exactly the same to them. (If anyone wants to dispute this summary, its quite simple – I’m cutting out the middlemen or women).

If anyone is tempted to get in, please remember the fundamental rules of investment –

i) there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
ii) if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Also remember that in general, risk is proportional to return. If there is a possibility of a high return, (ie more than you would get by sticking it on deposit with the Halifax) there is a higher risk that you won’t get it all back.

Similarly, to those still tempted to get in because they need the money, would you be prepared to stick GBP 3,000 on the nose of Sunny Jim in the 3.30 at Chepstow at 8 to 1? Yes, if you do so you could make a lot of money, but there is no guarantee!!

Fireflybob is being disingenuous with his comment that it is not saturation which causes these schemes to collapse. The schemes will collapse when there is saturation of those prepared to take part in them. And yes, numerically there are always more losers than winners.

And, at the risk of being seriously flamed, I have to advise those who are in the schemes and trying to recover their ‘investment’, that if you are desperate to get cash back, think of the potential pyramiding of the misery to those who you draw into the schemes. I don’t know how practical it is, but please try to get your money back from those who you gave it to.

[fireflybob]

curmudgeon, my remarks concerning "saturation" were not intended to be "disingenuous".

I suppose it all depends on what you mean by saturation. I agree that one of the reasons why these money schemes break down is that the average person will "run out" of people who he can find to attract into the system. Only a certain number of people that one knows will be inclined to give it a go.

All I was pointing out is that, in reference to genuine network marketing operations (where a product or service is involved) is that, in fact, saturation does not and has not ever occured.

If you believe that saturation of a market is possible then just think for a moment of colour televisions or mobile phones. Why are there still rows of shops selling these products if the market is supposed to be "saturated"?

[curmudgeon]

Fireflybob, I think we’re both agreed that unless you can afford the loss easily, one of these WEW schemes are a bad idea and certainly not an investment. (Please let me know if I’m wrong!)

Also, I agree that saturation is very difficult or impossible to achieve when you are dealing with a product or service. Colour televisions will have new features or new designs of cabinets that will persuade some people that they need the new version. Mobile phones are similar, where people are persuaded to upgrade rather than replace. The PC market is a prime example, where last year’s top end model is now this year’s entry level.

Where I think we differ is in our views of network marketing organisations. At one end of the scale, they are akin to pyramid schemes, where the actual return for an investment (of time and money in variable quantities) is negligible, and at the other end of the scale (say a McDonald’s franchise) they can be a licence to print money. However, just because there is a product or service involved doesn’t mean you are going to cover the opportunity cost of your investment.

As you said in your earlier post, “buyer beware”.

If someone is going to make an investment, get professional advice. At least if it goes belly up, you can sue the advisor, report them to their professional body, or both.

[shocka]

Investment rules: 1. If it sounds too good to be true........IT IS !!!!!!
2. See rule 1.
3. There's a sucker born every minute !
4. Don't let it be YOU !

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: shocka ]

[Capt PPRuNe]

So much for Women Empowering Women. I have now had first hand accounts from junior cabin crew in the company I fly for who were in tears because they are being threatened by senior CC that if they don't fork out and support the scheme they will receive bad appraisals and will not get a permanent contract. They are so terrified that they will not name names.

The nature of this beast is that as it begins to dawn on the later entrants that they are unlikely to see any money if more people don't join the scam they resort to desperate and evil tactics to 'persuade' others to keep it going and propped up. In the 'Buy a Heart' con, those that take part are unable to fathom that for every person that does receive £24,000 there are 8 others who will lose their £3,000 somewhere down the line and anyone who does not appreciate that fact should search their concience becaause the rest of us will consider them thieves.

Those of you in the UK or who have access to UK TV and are interested in this topic should watch Tonight with Trevor McDonald aftger the News at Ten on ITV at 10:20pm where this scam is investigated.