Screaming Virgin doesn't like it rough? (or VA F/A screams during turbulence)
I was flying VS as pax across the pond on the 24th aswell, but in the opposite direction MCO-LGW on VS16.
Somewhere North of the Azores, we experienced 2 periods of approx 15 mins of rough air - prob only light in category, but enough for us to be strapped in and to make walking around the cabin difficult for the CC during the bigger bumps.
A few kids were sick, only for their unfortunate parents to find out the a/c soon ran out of sick bags
At various times, some pax (not those with sick kids as far as I could tell) also ignored the seat belt sign and headed for the loos.
CC milling around my part of the a/c seemed not too concerned and at no point challenged them or told them to sit down
Somewhere North of the Azores, we experienced 2 periods of approx 15 mins of rough air - prob only light in category, but enough for us to be strapped in and to make walking around the cabin difficult for the CC during the bigger bumps.
A few kids were sick, only for their unfortunate parents to find out the a/c soon ran out of sick bags
At various times, some pax (not those with sick kids as far as I could tell) also ignored the seat belt sign and headed for the loos.
CC milling around my part of the a/c seemed not too concerned and at no point challenged them or told them to sit down
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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Turbulence is a strange thing, it can be very localised. Before Virgin appeared on the route, we were returning Las Vegas to Gatwick at night, approaching Greenland. From the chat, we knew to expect an 'interesting time' - well the Yanks weren't rabbitting on about the baseball/basketball results, always a good clue! My first officer started plotting the temperature change muttering "We're going to hit it any time now!" BOING - on with the cabin signs, warned the cabin crew - and we sat there waiting for it to start, and hearing all the reports from aircraft being badly bounced around just to the south of us. Nothing. On we cruised, smooth as silk, it turned out to be one of the best Atlantic crossings ever! Weird, eh?
Mind you, Boxing Day 1999, over the Alps. This was the day of The Great Storm in France. The 300mb wind was 300/180 and downwind of Mt.Blanc, descending through the mountain rotor into Turin, that was one of the two occasions in my flying career when I would say I encountered severe turbulence.
Mind you, Boxing Day 1999, over the Alps. This was the day of The Great Storm in France. The 300mb wind was 300/180 and downwind of Mt.Blanc, descending through the mountain rotor into Turin, that was one of the two occasions in my flying career when I would say I encountered severe turbulence.
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In my 15 years flying professionally I've experienced severe turbulence only once, following a really nasty windshear go-around in a horrendous storm back in 2000. Neither myself or the FO could read the instruments, the autopilot threw it's hands up and the aircraft was briefly uncontrollable (5 or so seconds) on several occasions before we were spat out of the turbulent area. My PA later was along the lines of "Well, you all enjoyed that about as much as I did.. my professional involvement with Gatwick is over for tonight, we are going to Manchester now where the weather is MUCH nicer."
Most bad turbulence is moderate, but perceived by some as being severe due to lack of exposure. Passenger and crew perception as always worse than the guys at the sharp end.
And another thing... please realise there is no such thing as an "air pocket." Air is a fluid, just like water, and behaves just like water. You expect waves on a lake or a river, and if you look at the edges, or around rocks, you will see eddy currents swirling back on themselves. It is exactly that sort of fluid behaviour that leads to turbulence, not some lack of support from the air itself as is perceived.
Squid
Most bad turbulence is moderate, but perceived by some as being severe due to lack of exposure. Passenger and crew perception as always worse than the guys at the sharp end.
And another thing... please realise there is no such thing as an "air pocket." Air is a fluid, just like water, and behaves just like water. You expect waves on a lake or a river, and if you look at the edges, or around rocks, you will see eddy currents swirling back on themselves. It is exactly that sort of fluid behaviour that leads to turbulence, not some lack of support from the air itself as is perceived.
Squid
I can't remeber the exact definition of moderate and severe turbulence but I recall that moderate turbulence states that standing or walking is impossible and severe states that major deviations for heading and level are experienced.
Based on those I don't think that I have ever experienced severe turbulence in an airliner. Also I know form experience that turbulence seems much worse when standing up.
Based on those I don't think that I have ever experienced severe turbulence in an airliner. Also I know form experience that turbulence seems much worse when standing up.
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Over the Gulf of Arabia in August, we had a good rollercoaster for a very good portion of the flight. All service suspended and any crew who were up and about the cabin were being held down by pax or holding onto the under seat struts. According to the IFE maps we were dropping hundreds of feet at a time, then climbing again then dropping, you could hear the engines doing that "roar" they seem to do in bad turbulence. The cc said it was some of the worst they had ever encountered. On arrival at LHR several pax did "a pope" and kissed the floor. It was very, very hairy.
My favourite ride is SFO/RNO as you crest the Sierras the ride is always very bumpy due to the sudden updrafts from the desert. The first time you do the flight it's scary, but once you know what's coming it's good fun.
My favourite ride is SFO/RNO as you crest the Sierras the ride is always very bumpy due to the sudden updrafts from the desert. The first time you do the flight it's scary, but once you know what's coming it's good fun.
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From my manual:
Light Turbulence - Cabin Service can continue, passengers can feel seatbelts, some light discomfort. Items vibrating on tray tables
Moderate Turbelence - Cabin service should be suspended, some difficulty in walking, moderate discomfort. Passengers forced into seatbelts. Items dislodged / moved from tray tables.
Severe Turbulence - Cabin service impossible, walking around cabin impossible. Unsecured items violently being thrown around the cabin, passengers thrown around in seats.
Well, something like that anyway..
Horgy
Light Turbulence - Cabin Service can continue, passengers can feel seatbelts, some light discomfort. Items vibrating on tray tables
Moderate Turbelence - Cabin service should be suspended, some difficulty in walking, moderate discomfort. Passengers forced into seatbelts. Items dislodged / moved from tray tables.
Severe Turbulence - Cabin service impossible, walking around cabin impossible. Unsecured items violently being thrown around the cabin, passengers thrown around in seats.
Well, something like that anyway..
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What exactly is going on on the North Atlantic currently with weather?
Is it a compulsive low area or just intense jetstream activity? I was sat on a train coming away from LHR yesterday and some ladies just up from the Carribean were discussing a BA plane getting bumped & tossed around with people crying and praying. No joke, you could hear the fear in their voice as they described it.
Another usual "bumpy" area on the South America routes crossing the equator. I'd like to get a greater understanding of this. Does anyone have any stories of disturbances on those routings?
I remeber vectoring round VERY high altitude storms late at night on a Varig flight last year at around that point.
Is it a compulsive low area or just intense jetstream activity? I was sat on a train coming away from LHR yesterday and some ladies just up from the Carribean were discussing a BA plane getting bumped & tossed around with people crying and praying. No joke, you could hear the fear in their voice as they described it.
Another usual "bumpy" area on the South America routes crossing the equator. I'd like to get a greater understanding of this. Does anyone have any stories of disturbances on those routings?
I remeber vectoring round VERY high altitude storms late at night on a Varig flight last year at around that point.
From the Sydney Morning Herald:
<<Douglas Marshall, a BBC journalist on the flight said he heard screams but could not say where they originated.
But he said the flight crew had been "very scared" when during the turbulence.>>
Guess he must have been on the flight deck comforting them
<<Douglas Marshall, a BBC journalist on the flight said he heard screams but could not say where they originated.
But he said the flight crew had been "very scared" when during the turbulence.>>
Guess he must have been on the flight deck comforting them
ITCZ
Alldaydeli,
I'm not a commercial pilot, but have paxed and jumpseated through this area (Atlantic equatorial) a no. of times.
I think you are talking about the ITCZ (Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone) or the "doldrums" as the area is otherwise known.
Others will for sure have better knowledge than me, but IIRC this is the area (between about 8 degrees N and S?) that tends to have big CB's in it pretty much every day of the year.
I recall once being told that diversions of hundreds of miles off-track are not uncommon in this area to find a hole in the weather.
I remember myself once transitting the area at FL350, with towering and pulsating CB's either side, but smooth as you like through the gap. Quite a surreal experience.
I'm not a commercial pilot, but have paxed and jumpseated through this area (Atlantic equatorial) a no. of times.
I think you are talking about the ITCZ (Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone) or the "doldrums" as the area is otherwise known.
Others will for sure have better knowledge than me, but IIRC this is the area (between about 8 degrees N and S?) that tends to have big CB's in it pretty much every day of the year.
I recall once being told that diversions of hundreds of miles off-track are not uncommon in this area to find a hole in the weather.
I remember myself once transitting the area at FL350, with towering and pulsating CB's either side, but smooth as you like through the gap. Quite a surreal experience.
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Wycombe, exactly what I was referring to.. the surreal experiece, I felt exactly the same at the time. Still curious to know whats going on currently on the north atlantic systems.
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Four-hundred and fifty-one...
Oh
My
God
That answers my question as to why, on the one trip I've subjected myself to on VS, I wondered why we disembarked through a door and not through a screw-top roof...
Only one trip? That one was more than enough to cure me.
Oh
My
God
That answers my question as to why, on the one trip I've subjected myself to on VS, I wondered why we disembarked through a door and not through a screw-top roof...
Only one trip? That one was more than enough to cure me.
I think it is a bit unfair to scoff at pax reactions beacuse a rough ride really does frighten many people. However crews have almost always been through a fair amount of turbulence and once you realise the plane isnt going to fall to pieces then its not as bad as being in a storm tossed ship.
I also think that in any similar situation the flight crew-who after all are in command of the situation and can see out and part of the fear factor is not being able to get any sensible visiual references are more relaxed because they are in conrol. Is the samecontrast between driving a car and being a passenger in an emergency or sudden stop.As driver you know your foot is moving to the brake pedal and that you are reacting but the pax has no sense of reaction until the brakes bite.
Often crew do not get much prior notice but its always wise to recognise that when the flight deck says 'it might get a bit bumpy in the descent' that in the cabin it will feel very bumpy. Different experiences different perceptions.
When it comes to categorising turbulence past experience probably also applies to crew perceptions A North Europe short haul crew for who CAT3 landings and 10meters rvr in gog /snow etc are no bigtrhing might be more concerned by the same level of turbulence that a pilot whose flying takes him daily to say Atlanta Dallas 0r Denver might shrug off as normal or light
After a great many flights as pax all over the world I have, like many crew grown more relaxed about it - mostly because Ive had the expereince of been through some fairly nasty stuff (and I certainlty wasnt blase about some of those at the time). I would be disconcerted by screaming cabin crew however unless they were obviously very young and thus perhaps not been conditioned by expereicne.
Picking up on another thread about known turbulence areas I used to fly NY to Bermuda lot and this trip involves crossing the region of the Atlantic Gulf stream which usually resulted in some roughness -occasionally very unpleasant-( 2 AA flight attnedent dumped on their bums ) . So I too wonder if crossing areas of known surface temperature change or instability can impact the atmosphere or whether, as could well be the case , the Jet Stream often follows a similar track to the Gulfstream and being forced to cross that virtually at right angles made for some or a lot of chop. Either way mid winter gales in bermuda often produced some relatively 'wild rides' on approach to Bermudas runway which for reasons of geography has large 60-70 degree offset from the really strong winds. If you travelled the route often it was uncomfortable but thats all-if it was your first time being tosse d around ina a yawing rocking 727 descending over a dark ocean with nothing but blackness out the window it was frightening enough for some screaming and praying
As an earlier poster said -look around the cabin and you get a different set of reactions - the calm ones have often flown the mos. Who has typically the most hours airborne on a plane? Usually the FD crew and perhaps occasionally a few more words of reassurance would help ( assuming they have the time while preventing 'death plunges into Orphanages. hospitals infants schools, the bermuda triangle etc , delete where applicable)
PB
I also think that in any similar situation the flight crew-who after all are in command of the situation and can see out and part of the fear factor is not being able to get any sensible visiual references are more relaxed because they are in conrol. Is the samecontrast between driving a car and being a passenger in an emergency or sudden stop.As driver you know your foot is moving to the brake pedal and that you are reacting but the pax has no sense of reaction until the brakes bite.
Often crew do not get much prior notice but its always wise to recognise that when the flight deck says 'it might get a bit bumpy in the descent' that in the cabin it will feel very bumpy. Different experiences different perceptions.
When it comes to categorising turbulence past experience probably also applies to crew perceptions A North Europe short haul crew for who CAT3 landings and 10meters rvr in gog /snow etc are no bigtrhing might be more concerned by the same level of turbulence that a pilot whose flying takes him daily to say Atlanta Dallas 0r Denver might shrug off as normal or light
After a great many flights as pax all over the world I have, like many crew grown more relaxed about it - mostly because Ive had the expereince of been through some fairly nasty stuff (and I certainlty wasnt blase about some of those at the time). I would be disconcerted by screaming cabin crew however unless they were obviously very young and thus perhaps not been conditioned by expereicne.
Picking up on another thread about known turbulence areas I used to fly NY to Bermuda lot and this trip involves crossing the region of the Atlantic Gulf stream which usually resulted in some roughness -occasionally very unpleasant-( 2 AA flight attnedent dumped on their bums ) . So I too wonder if crossing areas of known surface temperature change or instability can impact the atmosphere or whether, as could well be the case , the Jet Stream often follows a similar track to the Gulfstream and being forced to cross that virtually at right angles made for some or a lot of chop. Either way mid winter gales in bermuda often produced some relatively 'wild rides' on approach to Bermudas runway which for reasons of geography has large 60-70 degree offset from the really strong winds. If you travelled the route often it was uncomfortable but thats all-if it was your first time being tosse d around ina a yawing rocking 727 descending over a dark ocean with nothing but blackness out the window it was frightening enough for some screaming and praying
As an earlier poster said -look around the cabin and you get a different set of reactions - the calm ones have often flown the mos. Who has typically the most hours airborne on a plane? Usually the FD crew and perhaps occasionally a few more words of reassurance would help ( assuming they have the time while preventing 'death plunges into Orphanages. hospitals infants schools, the bermuda triangle etc , delete where applicable)
PB
Light Turbulance gives ripples on the martini's Moderate gives white caps. & oh severe is usually classed as temporaly out of control.
I notice over the years that what is now moderate we used to call light and severe what we used to call moderate. In the days of lower level flying on the "big" pistons most pilots were used to turbulance.
Today it is really the far East guys who are more used to turbulance than the trans atlantic lot. So definitions are bound to vary. What you are used to lowers your intensity report.
I notice over the years that what is now moderate we used to call light and severe what we used to call moderate. In the days of lower level flying on the "big" pistons most pilots were used to turbulance.
Today it is really the far East guys who are more used to turbulance than the trans atlantic lot. So definitions are bound to vary. What you are used to lowers your intensity report.
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If you read the news story they should have had at least 4 dozen ambulances waiting for the aircraft to collect the dead and wounded but that does not appear to be covered in the story 
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I thought the same, if the turbulence was really as bad as they made out in the papers, ie people being thrown into the fuesalage, hatracks,ceiling etc. Then why were there no ambulances there to meet the aircraft as it landed into las or why didnt they divert? they had at least another 6 hours flight time left to go.
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Turbulence definitions!
Ok, after a good number of attempted definitions I thought it was about time for some official ones - straight out of the manuals.
Light turbulence: Slight changes in attitude or altitude or changes in IAS 5-15 kts
Light chop: Slight bumpiness without changes in attitude or altitude or IAS
Occupants may feel a slight strain against their seatbelts though no difficulty is encountered in walking.
Moderate Turbulence: Similar to light turbulence but of greater intensity, changes in attitude and or altitude occur, IAS fluctuates 16-25 kts, but the sircraft remains in postive control at all times.
Moderate chop: Turbulence that is similar to light chop but of greater intensity causing rapid bumps and jolts without appreciable changes in attitude or altitude.
occupants feel definite strain against seat belts or shoulder harness. Unsecured objects are dislodged. Food service and walking are difficult.
Severe turbulence: Causes large, abrupt changes in attitude or altitude. Aircraft may be momentarily out of control, IAS fluctuates by more than 25 kts.
Occupants are forced against seat belts or shoulder harnesses. Unsecured atems are tossed about. Food service and walking are impossible.
The continuity of turbulence is described as:
Occasional - less than 1/3rd of the time
Intermittent - 1/3 - 2/3rd of the time
Continuous- More than 2/3rd of the time.
Hope this helps some of the non pilots.
JK
Light turbulence: Slight changes in attitude or altitude or changes in IAS 5-15 kts
Light chop: Slight bumpiness without changes in attitude or altitude or IAS
Occupants may feel a slight strain against their seatbelts though no difficulty is encountered in walking.
Moderate Turbulence: Similar to light turbulence but of greater intensity, changes in attitude and or altitude occur, IAS fluctuates 16-25 kts, but the sircraft remains in postive control at all times.
Moderate chop: Turbulence that is similar to light chop but of greater intensity causing rapid bumps and jolts without appreciable changes in attitude or altitude.
occupants feel definite strain against seat belts or shoulder harness. Unsecured objects are dislodged. Food service and walking are difficult.
Severe turbulence: Causes large, abrupt changes in attitude or altitude. Aircraft may be momentarily out of control, IAS fluctuates by more than 25 kts.
Occupants are forced against seat belts or shoulder harnesses. Unsecured atems are tossed about. Food service and walking are impossible.
The continuity of turbulence is described as:
Occasional - less than 1/3rd of the time
Intermittent - 1/3 - 2/3rd of the time
Continuous- More than 2/3rd of the time.
Hope this helps some of the non pilots.
JK
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As a pax, there are some places that I just know will be turbulent and am pretty used to it...mainly where a body of warm air hits a body of cold air or vice versa viz
Leaving LIS for LHR and you cross onto the Bay of Biscay....usually a pretty severe whallop to coincide nicely with the arrival of the second drink and the meal tray,
BAH to LHR when you go over Istanbul, right in the middle of the night when you've just fallen asleep,
and of course when approaching NCL from the south and you go out over the North sea (crash, bang, whallop, shimmy, rattle) and then back into the prevailing wind on approach.
Great stuff though. Makes you feel like you're really moving!
Leaving LIS for LHR and you cross onto the Bay of Biscay....usually a pretty severe whallop to coincide nicely with the arrival of the second drink and the meal tray,
BAH to LHR when you go over Istanbul, right in the middle of the night when you've just fallen asleep,
and of course when approaching NCL from the south and you go out over the North sea (crash, bang, whallop, shimmy, rattle) and then back into the prevailing wind on approach.
Great stuff though. Makes you feel like you're really moving!
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"Stewardess didn't panic" Says Virgin
I'm sure this will get bumped out of R&N, but noted this wasn't in a thread:
'No evidence' stewardess panicked says Virgin Atlantic ... full story relating to incident in Feb here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4900660.stm
I make no comment, just post it for information.
Jordan
'No evidence' stewardess panicked says Virgin Atlantic ... full story relating to incident in Feb here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4900660.stm
I make no comment, just post it for information.
Jordan
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There are always two sides to every story and it would be most unfortunate for a young stewardess was robbed of her professional reputation on heresay alone. I am delighted to see Virgin coming out in support of the crew. It is quite apparent that this was an extremely unusual and frightening situation for everybody on board - including the crew. The mere fact that so many people on board genuinely thought their last moments had come and that Virgin are saying it was the worst such incident in its 22 years history indicate the severity of the situation. It is very easy to be sat in your armchair at home having a titter over what happened but altogether more tricky having to cope with a frightening and apparently life-threatening incident on a real aircraft in flight.
I have always taken the view that true bravery is not facing danger with a total absence of fear but rather being frightened and still performing your duties regardless. It seems to me on that basis the crew were indeed brave and did a great job.
I have always taken the view that true bravery is not facing danger with a total absence of fear but rather being frightened and still performing your duties regardless. It seems to me on that basis the crew were indeed brave and did a great job.