QANTAS discussions (All Bases) - Merged

[lowerlobe]

Defcon4
If you want to join Ben Dover and the rest of the faaa and wave the white flag bending over backwards and give the company exactly what they want then I can’t really help you.

Ben and the other girls at the faaa still have no answer for the 6 Australian jobs lost to the AKL crew even though they tell us that the dispensation will save our jobs.

It looks as though either the faaa has an interest in giving in or they simply need to see an optometrist because blind Freddie can see the temporary dispensation has not worked to save jobs so why on earth would you vote for a permanent one….Do you want to give the rest of our jobs away as well because that is what the faaa want to do..

The company knows that the current faaa have no idea or fight in them and can be pushed around at will with little or no chance of putting up a fight.

Voting NO does not mean we are inflexible but that we are willing to make a stand and negotiate change rather than just give up and surrender

Think about the facts and

VOTE NO….

[Shlonghaul]

JFK

Way to go Front Pit and Lowerlobe for telling it like it really is. Some dopes here think that voting yes will guarantee their jobs. Does that mean that if we vote yes that the company will guarantee in writing that all positions on the shuttle will be crewed by Australian based longhaul crew? Yes I thought not !!!And I love the ones that rave on about longhaul being the most expensive cabin crew. As if it's our fault that others have been employed in different divisions on a lower pay scale. I don't see our fat cat executives relinquishing their pay, bonuses, shares etc. etc. etc. Six & a half million for our CEO last financial year ----- and we're overpaid?? Give me a break !!! Do yourselves a favour and even as a conscience vote ------ VOTE NO

[QFRegional]

Do you people ever work, your always on the blo**dy net?

Lowerlobe

Let me give you the heads up from the bottom of the flight attendant ladder. You are never going to slip in New York again and no amount of bitching and moaning will get you back to the hotel in NYC.

As has been proven with the 6 Auckland crew assigned to the shuttle in the next bid period the company nor the FAAA could give a rats about any dispensation and nothing you say or do will change that.

I commend you on your determination on this issue. Please take a gold star and shove it where the sun doesnt shine I am so over it.

Dont get me started on your crew rest seats. You poor thing, let me tell you whats its really like right down the bottom of the Qantas (link) flight attendant ladder. In our EBA negotiated no less by a former FAAA President who now happens to be our cabin crew manager. We dont get a break unless we are "rostered" to work more than 8 hours. If you are drafted which is an everyday occurance at Eastern you can work an additional 4 hours BUT because this wasnt "rostered" you are entitled to NO break, thats right no sit down eat your lunch/dinner just go, go an go and 9 sectors no less. So dont get me started on your pissy little perth return crap.

Now I know why long haul has such a bad rep and here I was thinking it was because of that joke of a service you slap out everyday. WRONG!!

[GalleyHag]

Um I wonder who was drafted today?

I have to agree 100% Perth return has nothing on what you guys at Eastern have to put up with these days.

QFRegional, the debate raging with the long haul crew is all about protecting their flying, income and future careers. I can see how this could be interpreted by other crew but dont let it get to you.

[lurker@R5]

the trigger

the" trigger" that signalled to QF Management the complete and utter inflexibility of L/H as represented by the faaa -was the threatened strike action leading up to Xmas last year.
MM & the boys cannot now walk away from this ridiculous decision.
it was the wrong way to go and we will all pay for it now.
Yes, I too would like to have been a fly on the wall the day MM had lunch with Dixon. I don't for one minute believe anything corrupt happened - i just reckon after his 10th glass of red, GD laid it out to MM in no uncertain terms. I reckon MM would have left the table with a steamer in his pants.

Re PEG IN ARSE 747 & GUARDIAN - your BULLYING posts are unfortunately typical of the aggressive, intimidating & condescending leadership style of the faaa exec.
we are all getting fed up with being spoken down to... you may just get a back lash vote on the JFK. If you had it your way blokes like lower lobe would literally be sent to some gulag in Siberia (or maybe the PER base).
you blokes were "the trigger" and now you're running scared after you've seen what you have unleashed.

[DEFCON4]

Lurker...be counted

Come next FAAA election throw your hat in the ring instead of carping on in PPRuNE.
Put up or shutup.

[lurker@R5]

fair enough

heh, thats a fair enough comment Defecate 4 - but some people need to chill out in here - we're just sitting around the CSms room chewing the cud - discussing a few issues outside the jurisdiction of the Qantas Public Affairs Thought Police.
The pathological need & desire for some of the union officials in here to actually identify the crew members online is typical of a Stalinist approach to union solidarity - you're either with us - or else you're up agianst the wall.

poor old lower lobe - what with his JFK obsession & his loss of crew rest - the announcement of Jetstar International has just buried us - it will mean a 40% reduction in our wages & conditions - the transmision of business concept will allow us all to be REBRANDED as Jetstar Int crew .
They will keep a token number of planes flying around with the rat on the tail - but most will be quietly resprayed and we will be unobtrusively slipped onto them. With code share arrangements -the punter won't even notice.
the media hate us - they only see the five star hotels & jet setting lifestyle (which the Mosman Mafia love to promote)
the world sees us as glorified pourers of tea & coffee & geoffrey intends to pay us as such.

and as for qf csm talking about VR & CR packages - "Tell him he's dreaming!"
As I said before I feel really sorry for the crew on the MEL base - there will only be 2 boxes to tick
1. Shorthaul with 246 hrs per roster
2. Jetstar International with BKK conditions.

what upsets me about the current faaa exec is that they spent $900,000 of our hard earned money buying a pretty new office -and yet before the paint even dries - they will be Kings Of Nothing.
And these BOVVER BOYS know that they were indeed THE TRIGGERS.

[lowerlobe]

Now Pegasus thinks he is Nostradamus and can tell through the computer some how my identity….funny these people in the faaa...

I know that myself and others have criticized the faaa over it’s appalling communication skills but I will be fair about it.

1: Show us here the newsletter that the faaa was going to engage the services of a fatigue expert

2: Show us the parameters of the study, how many crews were involved and over what period of time.Dr Dawson has a very good reputation and I’m sure he has based his findings on more than just a pattern book.

The tech crew are employing Dr Dawson to establish fatigue patterns with their flying and it is using a device to measure body functions such as temperature,pulse rate etc..as well as the tech crew listing his/her sleeping times and patterns.This is being done over a period of 2 years…What type of study did the faaa get ???? A Best and Less version

3: Finally show us where the faaa made it clear that not only had there been a study but that it was available for members to read.

Of course unless we are expected to be telepathic and instinctively realize that there is a report to read or anything of interest , are we supposed to ring the faaa everyday that we are home just to make sure we are not missing out on anything important.

Lurker,
I do not believe like you that we are terminally ill with no recourse for any action .I do not have any obsession with the JFK dispensation but I realise that if we don’t do something soon we will be a third world base and this is a stand to try and prevent that.

If you think that there is nothing we can do, then sit back and not bother us with any more of your posts.


However ,the faaa and it’s spokesperson Ben Dover are correct in one way for the first time .

This vote is critical and the correct response is a NO vote..

[mrpaxing]

show us the proof

after i have seen the name of the fatigue expert on this forum, i have made a few calls. dr. dawson is unlikely to put his name on such a letter taking into consideration the whole trip. this is the opinion of some people who DO have an idea about these issues.
having the kiwis on the shuttle from next bid period anyway does not inspire one to vote yes. the timing of the vote really sucks too. whatever happens lh crew will survive and fight another day. unfortunatly, not only kylie but also her sidekicks, the three sisters.



looks like jetstar international get some 38 new planes, a total of 60 within 5 years (23 domestic already in service)but one can safely assume they are getting more airbuses as A330-200-300 , as they have the same cockpit arrangments. its all about costs.
that would give qf some 62 + boeings (a mix of 787,777 and maybe the new 747-800) to replace the existing 767,747's . interestingly the board meeting yesterday still has some loose ends as there is another one december 14th. all the good news for christmas. doesn't it lift the christmas spirits?

[lowerlobe]

Well the faaa has finally decided to communicate with the members. As with their previous posts and letters from the other cappuccino drinking surrender advocates, this newsletter is no different.

I am calling this latest newsletter the NORMISON document because it is filled with the usual mind-numbing harangue using fear and doom but with nothing of any substance and is difficult to stay awake reading, in fact very similar to the EP manual.

It’s funny that MM and AM boast that they did not agree with the previous faaa leadership but call anyone who does not agree with them ill informed.

I’m still trying to work out how the previous EBA is responsible for the current situation as MM has told us, talk about flogging the proverbial dead horse.

This is all about reacting to the company and not waving the surrender flag and bending over to capitulate.

No matter how many dispensations we give, the company will still set up jet star international but instead of rolling over and hoping they use a lubricant let’s negotiate instead.

The faaa told us that it’s rationale for granting temporary dispensation was to protect our flying jobs because if we didn’t we are doomed .Well ,the company apparently did not read the same book as the faaa because they have already replaced 6 crew on the shuttle.

If the temporary dispensation did not save jobs why on earth would anyone expect a permanent one to do any better?


VOTE NO

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

This is fantastic to read. I wish I could go to the TAB and bet on what's going to happen to Longhaulers next. Because everything Lowerlode and it's extremist minority lefty mates argues for, loses. Everything QF wants, QF gets. Yet they still don't get it.

The last EBA incl the London Base and the training of strikebreakers as an example. Now the JFK dispensation which I guarantee you extremists will lose.

Like I have said before, it is clear this nasty old guard is quite prepared to commit employment suicide and take everybody down with them. How lucky for the majority you guys aren't running the union because you all would have been unemployed a long time ago. I can only shudder to think what it must be like working with you bitter clowns.

Good luck, it's a good warning to all to see what happens to inflexible employees who think the world owes them something. They ALWAYS LOSE.

Wonder what lies in store for you next? You can't be a flight attendant if you don't have an airline.

Jetstar Intl, cleared for take-off.

[lowerlobe]

Aaahhhh JBM…Some things never change and as usual you are as predictable as the sun rising.

You are one extreme and the faaa the other and neither of you can see that moderation can succeed


Vote NO

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

Go ahead, keep posting VOTE NO because everytime you do you are setting yourself up for yet another humiliation.

And it's coming at you like a freight train! The vote will show how minority your views are. I can't wait for the results (you will lose) and I will continually remind you of them into the future.

For the first time ever I have some respect for the FAAA because of the sensible and pragmatic way they have conducted their relationship with your employer. My anti- union views are well expressed on this site, but credit where credit is due.

[lowerlobe]

LONG HAUL CREW before you vote think of these facts…

The company does not need a dispensation to replace us so why do they want one ???

The company has already replaced 6 Australian crew even with the temporary dispensation so why would you give them a permanent one.

This dispensation has not protected jobs yet so why would the company regard us any differently because we gave in.

If the dispensation creates a precedent the company will be able to roster us for multi sector flights of the same time as the jfk shuttle on a regular basis. Imagine doing SIN/DRW/ADL/MEL/SYD or worse.

The company is apparently not happy with the amount of overtime and long range allowance being paid to Australian crew so how long do you think it will be before we are replaced irrespective of a dispensation.

The company wants to raise the limit of hours worked before a vote is taken on multi sector flights.

This is all about being flexible and sitting down with the company and talking instead of just giving in or of not talking at all .There are times to compromise and there are times to stand up and defend yourself, this is not the time to say pass the lubricant and do what you want.
To vote with the faaa is to reinforce to the company that we are running scared and that they can walk all over us…

To prove my point with the faaa, read jet black monaro’s last post. We have read JBM’s rhetorical nonsense and now he is siding with the faaa.

We all know what JBM thinks of unions and he is now using this debate to set L/H up for a fall by trying to tell us he supports the faaa and to vote yes…We all know that the last thing jbm wants is for L/H to succeed so he wants us to vote yes
Quote “I have some respect for the FAAA because of the sensible and pragmatic way they have conducted their relationship with your employer.”

Oh yeah and John Howard votes for Labor as well

Think smart

VOTE NO….

[Pegasus747]

Just a reply to Front - Pit ..you asked why the vote on the JFK dispensation was not conduected by the Australian Electoral Commission.

the answer is simple. becuase that cant by law. They are able to run Union elections but cannot be used for other things at the whim of unions or private firms or individuals.

The JFK ballot is conducted by the FAAA as a courtesy to its members who could not attend the union meetings earlier in the year..

The FAAA could have done the whole thing by a show of hands at that meeting and from the feedback from crew that attended those meetings it would have got up in a landslide.

But unlike any other previous FAAA officials..this leadership has given the membership a say. AND, ALL the membership. Unparalled democratic process.

For the information of the dodo's that are big on rhetoric and small on sunstance...the FAAA is not required either under the terms of the EBA or the Rules of the FAAA to gain permission from the membership on matters such as this,

Just as the goverment does not require (other than at elections) to consent of the people on matters that the parliament can deal with.

In all of our EBA"s there is a "facilitative" clause that allows the FAAA and the company to vary things in the EBAby agreement and it does not require a vote of the members.

Whilst a minority in here think that the vote is overdue, i think that its very timely. Firstly , the FAAA have waited until most crew have had an opportunity to discuss it thoroughly. Secondly we can now view the further dangers to us with greater perspective ..ie jetstar short haul and now australian airlines doing CNS to japan flying.

people have talked about the fact that we should negotiate. I think thats what the FAAA have done. The company could have put Kiwi crew on the lax jfk flights and keep recruiting overseas based crew. That would lead to more surpluses and more direction of Long Service Leave.

I do not think that there will be redundancies with 2 yrs pay any more. The new legislation has given employers like Qantas far greater options.

By allowing the dispensation, we are keeping work in the long Haul based. Can they and will they supplement it with Kiwi crew?? quite possibly can we stop them ? NO!

When Michael Mijatov told ppl to vote against the previous EBA he said that the CAP would die. It did and to get another one we had to theaten Industrial Action. He also said that unless we secure Airbus FLying in the EBA that we would lose flying to short haul and it happened.

We he and his team we able to secure in our current EBA was a Clawback of some of the lossed but certainly not all of it. And that was only becuase of intense media pressure and threats of industrial action.

I now notice that he is being criticised for theatening the industrial action and getting tough when we had the ability to take protected action.

I give up, if we threaten action its doom and gloom if we negotiate we are being sold out.... i like many other crew are beginning to realise that there is a small bitter and totally twisted element in the membership that HAte qantas, hate the passengers, hate the management and hate the Union.

They are merchants of HATE and it has clouded every element of sense.

When the company can pick the heads if there is a redundancy i pity those HATERS who are well known to the company and the union.

because no one will be able to save them

[qcc2]

how long will it take

regardless of the vote. qf managements bonus driven and the faaa scare mongers decisions its only a matter of time before the US federal aviation administration finds out and they will put a stop to it. as pointed out here in this forum before and i did check on that our us collegues arne't allowed to do it, so i cant see them letting foreigners exploite their system. the press would have a field day
JBM you failed to mention our backstabbing domestic collegues who are responsible for the london base. a little reminder their president was first to sign up. then you could add lower penalty ratesffor transferees, from less then 5% international flying to almost 30%-50%,depending on seasons. and so on. you see it has nothing to do with minority leftis mates, more like two dumb unions where one particualy stands out for excecutive stupidity. having said that the other excecutives aren't excatly the smartest either. keep fighting each other so we ALL keep loosing.
that should keep you smiling

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus has said in his previous post

Quote.."The company could have put Kiwi crew on the lax jfk flights "

and "By allowing the dispensation, we are keeping work in the long Haul based"

What planet are you guys from???

This might be a wake up call for you but the company have as of next roster...so much for your appeasment strategy and surrender policy giving them a dispensation to save jobs.

The most amazing part is that even with the company putting 6 Kiwis on they still want to give the dispensation to the company..

What do you want to give away next ..our overtime,standard of accomodation ,our slipping pattern ????


VOTE NO

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

I love it when the bitter old guard divert from the subject and resort to personal attack and innuendo. It usually follows a post that is too close to the truth and that they have no sensible and informed response to.

Go ahead, make their day, VOTE NO you fools and commit 'employment suicide'.

[lowerlobe]

Let's see ...

JBM a rabid anti unionist tells us quote "I have some respect for the FAAA because of the sensible and pragmatic way they have conducted their relationship with your employer."

.....With all jbm's right wing pro government stance he tells us this .What does that make you think..either


1: He wants the faaa to give in to the company or...

2: He wants L/H cabin crew to vote yes and be done over or

3: It takes some heat off the profit fall from VB

JBM's post is the icing on the cake,if you ever needed proof of which way to vote this is it..

Be Smart and VOTE NO

[Mr Seatback 2]

Regarding this dispo, there's probably a good turn of phrase for those voting No:

"Win the battle, lose the war"