Air Transat CC falls from Aircraft
Thread Starter
I'm not too sure that the poor girl was thinking that CHIRP works as she was suffering on the apron.
The point I was trying to make was that if CHIRP had been used to highlight the problems with open doors/ground equipment, then maybe this lady would not be in the state she is now. We will never know.
I am as guilty as the next man. I have reported this issue to the MAN authorities many times. They have pontificated on this matter for years and not had the guts to issue fines on a regular basis to offenders.
Maybe I should have CHIRPED it!!
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This accident is true :
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...39#post2133439
And she wasn't in a rush like some of you thought. The inbound crew that some of my colleagues met, told that there was a misunderstanding between CC and the ground rep.
http://www.flightattendants.org/ubbt.../page/0#132680
"She had put one foot on the stairs to close the door and told the ground handler to wait....but he understood that it was ok for him to pull away the stairs.As she was closing the door the stairs were pulled out from under her and she fell."
Hope that she will recover quickly.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...39#post2133439
And she wasn't in a rush like some of you thought. The inbound crew that some of my colleagues met, told that there was a misunderstanding between CC and the ground rep.
http://www.flightattendants.org/ubbt.../page/0#132680
"She had put one foot on the stairs to close the door and told the ground handler to wait....but he understood that it was ok for him to pull away the stairs.As she was closing the door the stairs were pulled out from under her and she fell."
Hope that she will recover quickly.
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I am somewhat suprised that The Moderator has already apportioned blame to a very unfortunate incident which is now the subject of at least three investigations (HSE, MAN operator and the handling agent).
In saying "Ground Handling at many UK airports has (in my view) deteriorated over the past 5 years, not helped by ever decreasing turnaround times and equipment that is being used well past its' sell-by date. I'm saddened, but not surprised when people are hurt: I'm surprised that it doesn't happen more often!" the moderator has already speculated on the outcome which, in my view, is a sad reflection on the credibility of this site.
In saying "Ground Handling at many UK airports has (in my view) deteriorated over the past 5 years, not helped by ever decreasing turnaround times and equipment that is being used well past its' sell-by date. I'm saddened, but not surprised when people are hurt: I'm surprised that it doesn't happen more often!" the moderator has already speculated on the outcome which, in my view, is a sad reflection on the credibility of this site.
Proposed Rules
- Always when opening door from inside, fall protection harness must be worn until CC inspection has confirmed steps or bridge securely in place.
- When door opened, steps or bridge must not be moved until barrier consisting of nylon strap mesh secured inside a/c passage leading to door. Placards on outside fuselage by door in all applicable languages that failure to secure barrier before removing steps or bridge from open door will be prosecuted as criminal negligence.
- Placards in door passage that nobody passes barrier without fall safety harness unless steps or bridge secure.
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Welcome BlackWhite, on the occasion of your first post on PPRuNe.
Nope - I've been quite careful not to specifically apportion blame, and have taken care with the wording. Please read the words with the same diligence. You're free to disagree, or disapprove, and even to draw personal conclusions about the credibility of PPRuNe. In the event that you determine that this website no longer offers you anything useful, you are also free to take your custom elsewhere.
Nope - I've been quite careful not to specifically apportion blame, and have taken care with the wording. Please read the words with the same diligence. You're free to disagree, or disapprove, and even to draw personal conclusions about the credibility of PPRuNe. In the event that you determine that this website no longer offers you anything useful, you are also free to take your custom elsewhere.
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Tight Slot, my inference that you had apparently apportioned blame was based on the criticism of ground handling safety standards without making any other sweeping comments on the safety standards of other airport sectors for example airport operators or, dare I say it, cabin crew - visiting or resident.
Incidentally I would be interested to know the basis of your assumption that ground handling safety standards have fallen - I think you will find statistically that the reverse to be the case despite ever increasing - and valuable - regulations and legislation.
Incidentally I would be interested to know the basis of your assumption that ground handling safety standards have fallen - I think you will find statistically that the reverse to be the case despite ever increasing - and valuable - regulations and legislation.
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Here is another example of a similar occurrence:
Aviation Occurrence Report - Injuries to Person While Deplaning
CBAAC 0174 - Mobile Aircraft Passenger Stands
Aviation Occurrence Report - Injuries to Person While Deplaning
CBAAC 0174 - Mobile Aircraft Passenger Stands
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Thanks for the update TCX I have just stumbled upon this thread and -- as SLF -- was absolutely astounded at the apparent lack of health and safety regs in this area.
And then I thought, but what about the poor girl? Hope she has a speedy recovery and gets an 'ambulance-chaser' type lawyer onto the people that nearly cost her her life.
And then I thought, but what about the poor girl? Hope she has a speedy recovery and gets an 'ambulance-chaser' type lawyer onto the people that nearly cost her her life.
Thread Starter
Oh, there are pages full of H&S regs Angels.
It's just that many choose to ignore them.
It's just that many choose to ignore them.
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For the past 5 years I have daily closed the frwrd service door on various types of 737s without there being either steps or a catering truck in place. They are damned heavy and the only way for me to close it is to hike up the skirt, brace myself with one leg halfway up the door frame and then pull for all I'm worth.
Is it clever? No.
Is it safe? No.
Is it against company rules? No.
Do I do it because I am so brainwashed about getting away on-time that before reading this thread I have never even considered an alternative?
Yes!!
I have no ready answers here, but many things I wonder about. Mainly if it is a question of money?
Before the loco's, we had well trained ground staff employed by our own company. They felt responsible and had pride in their job and the company.
These days, most ground handling has been outsourced. To the lowest bidder. Who are cheap for a reason and whose employees care not one whit about what aircraft they are servicing.
Before the loco's, we had turnaround times that allowed both the flight crews and the ground crews to do a thorough and safe job.
Now we have to match the loco's turnaround times more and more, so the pressure is on pilots, FAs, ground handlers and everyone else involved in the whole sordid mess. Despite everybody's best intentions, attention to detail and thereby safety, WILL suffer when you are all rushing.
Before the loco's, being an FA was an attractive job thanks to the travel, the high standard hotels and the class of people one associated with. Because of the glam factor, the job attracted enough people so companies could be picky and hire for both brains and education.
Now flying is for everybody, and so is being an FA. At my own company, educational requirements for FAs have been drastically lowered, and it shows.
When I recently paxed with a certain loco the FAs couldn't have been kinder or more service minded, but their English PA was so heavily accented that even I, knowing what they were on about, coudn't make out most of what they were saying.
So for me, the reasons are somewhere here:
*People wanting to fly for as little as possible (and who can blame them?)
*Companies giving the travelling public what they want by lowering the cost of the operation to breaking point in their attempt at staying aloft in a competitive business (yes the managers are certainly to blame for on the one hand pushing the operation to the extreme limits while at the same time covering their sagging backsides with shoving regulations down people's throats which everybody knows are impossible to follow but which look good on paper)
* Regulatory authorities being too understaffed and underfunded to be able & willing to take significant action against the many inherently unsafe practices that are rife in our industry.
By allowing ourselves to be rushed, to work in ways that are dangerous because we think that is the only way to keep our companies aloft/to keep our jobs, we ourselves are greatly responsible for these happenings.
I have no idea how to change this, apart from once again telling myself that I will not be rushed by anything or anybody when at work.
And trying to remember my resolution next time someone is trying to push me to get away on time.
Is it clever? No.
Is it safe? No.
Is it against company rules? No.
Do I do it because I am so brainwashed about getting away on-time that before reading this thread I have never even considered an alternative?
Yes!!
I have no ready answers here, but many things I wonder about. Mainly if it is a question of money?
Before the loco's, we had well trained ground staff employed by our own company. They felt responsible and had pride in their job and the company.
These days, most ground handling has been outsourced. To the lowest bidder. Who are cheap for a reason and whose employees care not one whit about what aircraft they are servicing.
Before the loco's, we had turnaround times that allowed both the flight crews and the ground crews to do a thorough and safe job.
Now we have to match the loco's turnaround times more and more, so the pressure is on pilots, FAs, ground handlers and everyone else involved in the whole sordid mess. Despite everybody's best intentions, attention to detail and thereby safety, WILL suffer when you are all rushing.
Before the loco's, being an FA was an attractive job thanks to the travel, the high standard hotels and the class of people one associated with. Because of the glam factor, the job attracted enough people so companies could be picky and hire for both brains and education.
Now flying is for everybody, and so is being an FA. At my own company, educational requirements for FAs have been drastically lowered, and it shows.
When I recently paxed with a certain loco the FAs couldn't have been kinder or more service minded, but their English PA was so heavily accented that even I, knowing what they were on about, coudn't make out most of what they were saying.
So for me, the reasons are somewhere here:
*People wanting to fly for as little as possible (and who can blame them?)
*Companies giving the travelling public what they want by lowering the cost of the operation to breaking point in their attempt at staying aloft in a competitive business (yes the managers are certainly to blame for on the one hand pushing the operation to the extreme limits while at the same time covering their sagging backsides with shoving regulations down people's throats which everybody knows are impossible to follow but which look good on paper)
* Regulatory authorities being too understaffed and underfunded to be able & willing to take significant action against the many inherently unsafe practices that are rife in our industry.
By allowing ourselves to be rushed, to work in ways that are dangerous because we think that is the only way to keep our companies aloft/to keep our jobs, we ourselves are greatly responsible for these happenings.
I have no idea how to change this, apart from once again telling myself that I will not be rushed by anything or anybody when at work.
And trying to remember my resolution next time someone is trying to push me to get away on time.
Use a Strap
F40,
How about girth hitching a length of nylon webbing to the door handle?
You can put a knot in the other end and hang it on a clip on the same side of the door passage as the hinge.
This will allow you to pull the door to a (near) closed position from well inside without having to lean out.
Once the door is close to the closed position, you can then secure it with much less fall exposure.
How about girth hitching a length of nylon webbing to the door handle?
You can put a knot in the other end and hang it on a clip on the same side of the door passage as the hinge.
This will allow you to pull the door to a (near) closed position from well inside without having to lean out.
Once the door is close to the closed position, you can then secure it with much less fall exposure.
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I noticed this post last Thursday night not knowing that I'd find out this AM that the CC is a very dear friend of ours.
Her Husband is currently with her in MAN, her parents are looking after the kids back home.
She will have a long recovery ahead once she's back in Canada.
Her Husband is currently with her in MAN, her parents are looking after the kids back home.
She will have a long recovery ahead once she's back in Canada.
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On The Subject Of Removing Stairs Without Approval
Same shyte happened to me last night, departing a fairly big Scandihoovian airport where ground handling is provided by our own staff. Our manual is quite clear in this respect; stairs are not to be removed without approval by crew.
As it was, we were loaded and ready to go and I had closed the cargo door. I poked my head into the cockpit asking if we were clear to close the L1, but the skipper was not quite there yet. I stood outside the cockpit (B757) and patiently waited until the flyboys reached that page in the book which would allow us to close the door, no rush. However, as I'm stood there I see the stairs slowly move away, quite to my disbelief. It must be added here that this particular station usually sets very high standards. I went to the door and "Oi'd" the handlers, who duly pushed the stairs back. However, I did go downstairs and gave the loading supervisor a friendly talking to. No need to raise voice or anything, but he was told in no uncertain terms that a reproduction of that incident on his part would lead me to reach for 'puter and email! He got the message.
PS
At most stations we always close the door after stairs have been removed. I personally have no problems physically manhandling a door from the inside, but appreciate that people sporting less mass and, dare I say it, muscles may have more of a problem. This begs the question whether (narrowbody Boeing) aircraft door are incorrectly designed if a petite female CC cannot safely close them, or whether CC should demonstrate the physical ability to safely close the door.
PS
In our outfit we've lost a FE owing to stairs being taken away without approval, and we've had another 2 sustaining serious injuries in falls from aircraft. We take this pretty serious, and tend to come down hard on those who fail to grasp that safety of our crews is more important than an additional 2 minute coffee break!
As it was, we were loaded and ready to go and I had closed the cargo door. I poked my head into the cockpit asking if we were clear to close the L1, but the skipper was not quite there yet. I stood outside the cockpit (B757) and patiently waited until the flyboys reached that page in the book which would allow us to close the door, no rush. However, as I'm stood there I see the stairs slowly move away, quite to my disbelief. It must be added here that this particular station usually sets very high standards. I went to the door and "Oi'd" the handlers, who duly pushed the stairs back. However, I did go downstairs and gave the loading supervisor a friendly talking to. No need to raise voice or anything, but he was told in no uncertain terms that a reproduction of that incident on his part would lead me to reach for 'puter and email! He got the message.
PS
At most stations we always close the door after stairs have been removed. I personally have no problems physically manhandling a door from the inside, but appreciate that people sporting less mass and, dare I say it, muscles may have more of a problem. This begs the question whether (narrowbody Boeing) aircraft door are incorrectly designed if a petite female CC cannot safely close them, or whether CC should demonstrate the physical ability to safely close the door.
PS
In our outfit we've lost a FE owing to stairs being taken away without approval, and we've had another 2 sustaining serious injuries in falls from aircraft. We take this pretty serious, and tend to come down hard on those who fail to grasp that safety of our crews is more important than an additional 2 minute coffee break!
Thread Starter
Short memories at MAN.
Today, two service doors left open by two separate ground handling companies...on the same aircraft. One lot had even placed a bag of rubbish in front of the door to stop people walking out, ideally placed to trip them up though!
Today, two service doors left open by two separate ground handling companies...on the same aircraft. One lot had even placed a bag of rubbish in front of the door to stop people walking out, ideally placed to trip them up though!
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flapsforty - there is no need to blame locos for rushing and negligence being part of it. doesn't matter if you have a 20 minute turnaround or 1 hr turnaround, you still have a departure time to make, and all the work is done in the last 8 minutes.
To close the door on a 737, there is no need to hike up your skirt and have a leg half way up the door. Use your right hand to close it and not your left, and comes in like a dream.
To close the door on a 737, there is no need to hike up your skirt and have a leg half way up the door. Use your right hand to close it and not your left, and comes in like a dream.
