Air Transat CC falls from Aircraft
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Why can't they have some attachment on the stairs or jetty
The incident with the AF CC was the first thought in my mind when I saw this thread, some of you may recall I was writing a paper on apron safety; the issue of mobile stairs being moved was one I specifically adressed. On speaking to some other crew it seems it is quite a concern to many CC that one day someone will move their stairs!
Perhaps a move back to aircraft with built-in stairs is needed??
Thread Starter
VC10 Rib22
There is a much more effective means of reporting.
It's called CHIRP and all UK ATCOs, Licensed Aircraft Engineers, Pilots and CC have access to it.
It is completely confidential and it WORKS. Use it, you may save someone's life.
I have heard today, and this is uncorroborated, that the steps were taken away as the door was being closed, the CC member then fell between steps and aircraft, hanging on to the threshold of the doorway on the way down. This probably saved her life, if true.
Just wandering around the airport today I saw several doors left wide open with no steps or platform under them.
I mentioned this to one (overseas operator) CC member and she had opened it herself to let some air in!
It is not always the fault of ground staff, CC can be equally guilty.
There is a much more effective means of reporting.
It's called CHIRP and all UK ATCOs, Licensed Aircraft Engineers, Pilots and CC have access to it.
It is completely confidential and it WORKS. Use it, you may save someone's life.
I have heard today, and this is uncorroborated, that the steps were taken away as the door was being closed, the CC member then fell between steps and aircraft, hanging on to the threshold of the doorway on the way down. This probably saved her life, if true.
Just wandering around the airport today I saw several doors left wide open with no steps or platform under them.
I mentioned this to one (overseas operator) CC member and she had opened it herself to let some air in!
It is not always the fault of ground staff, CC can be equally guilty.
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How about using the same net as is used to keep cargo from moving around.
I don't believe that a single strap/metal will keep anyone from falling out (under or over) whereas a simple plastic net (half way up the door) should do the job? Simple hook on net
mmeteesside
I don't believe that a single strap/metal will keep anyone from falling out (under or over) whereas a simple plastic net (half way up the door) should do the job? Simple hook on net
mmeteesside
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Why doesn't a hostie start a thread on this forum allowing all cabin crew to give examples of scenarios where their lives are being put at risk and what they think could be done to address this issue? CC could even state at what airport such negligence occurs and what conversations took place with the handling agents. Surely this has got to be at the top of your agendas, way above pay, routes, uniforms, ugly pax, etc?
However I agree with TURIN, to report safety issues CHIRP is the way to go. We already send detailed incident forms to BA but CHIRP sometimes goes beyond what the airline itself can do, as it can investigate and involve all relevant departments.
Built-in airstairs aren't much safer, I have to say. You probably don't fall off the aircraft when closing the door but try getting off the plane with your bag when it is raining - bloody difficult!!
FBW
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FBW
Post the link
This thread details such a stupid set of accidents.
Please PLEASE stop injuring people in this manner
I am desperately depressed by the idea that people on the ground are driving off and injuring CC - does nobody understand their responsibilities?
Post the link
This thread details such a stupid set of accidents.
Please PLEASE stop injuring people in this manner
I am desperately depressed by the idea that people on the ground are driving off and injuring CC - does nobody understand their responsibilities?
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Certainly with British Airways, crew are told that both feet must be INSIDE the aircraft when trying to close aircraft doors. This will prevent accidents happening should stairs be removed during the closing of the door.
I'm trying to remember whether this is a fairly recent "notice" that has been issued to crew here but can't be sure. I know it exists though.
I'm trying to remember whether this is a fairly recent "notice" that has been issued to crew here but can't be sure. I know it exists though.
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the TSC CC was stood on the stairs trying to open the side rail of the stairs when the accident happended, it is still under investigation how things occured but it seems both sides had a part to play, the CC and the ramp agent.
As previously said by someone if you attach something to the stairs to prevent them driving away like a stap to the aircraft, id put all my life's wages on one ramp agent still not bothering and ripping the side of your aircraft off.
There is technology there to prevent this happening again its just not fully available yet and its quite costly, but in this case i wouldt but cost over safety
As previously said by someone if you attach something to the stairs to prevent them driving away like a stap to the aircraft, id put all my life's wages on one ramp agent still not bothering and ripping the side of your aircraft off.
There is technology there to prevent this happening again its just not fully available yet and its quite costly, but in this case i wouldt but cost over safety
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TO be frank, we don't need rules and regulations to prevent things like this from happening. We just need people to be particularly cautious when walking out on to a mobile platform some 30+ feet off the ground.
If we all stopped and took our time before jumping out of aircraft doors, accidents like this could be avoided.
If we all stopped and took our time before jumping out of aircraft doors, accidents like this could be avoided.
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I've worked on many different types of aircrafts, and have always refused to close a door when there are no steps/airbridge by the door. Yes, we are instructed to keep both feet inside the aircraft, but you still have to lean out, often at an awkward angle, to close the door. Can you imagine this type of safety issue being allowed in a factory? A factory worker having to lean out, to perform a task, with a huge drop below? Service doors are the worst, they are so heavy, and the catering trucks have often been moved, leaving the service door wide open with a huge drop below. When catering has finished, there is no need for the door to be open, so it makes sense for the service staff to close the door (as most do, but quite a few don't bother).
I realise the above doesn't stop someone moving the steps before the door is closed. But if steps remain in place until the door is closed, then it's not possible for such an accident to happen.
I can recall one incident when pax were waiting to leave the aircraft. The steps were in place, and the ground staff gave the thumbs up for passengers to disembark. As I was stepping onto the stairs, they started to move. The ground staff had decided to reposition them! (normal at that airline for a cabin crew member to go to the bottom of the stairs as passengers disembarked)
I'm just surprised there aren't more accidents.
I realise the above doesn't stop someone moving the steps before the door is closed. But if steps remain in place until the door is closed, then it's not possible for such an accident to happen.
I can recall one incident when pax were waiting to leave the aircraft. The steps were in place, and the ground staff gave the thumbs up for passengers to disembark. As I was stepping onto the stairs, they started to move. The ground staff had decided to reposition them! (normal at that airline for a cabin crew member to go to the bottom of the stairs as passengers disembarked)
I'm just surprised there aren't more accidents.
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"Simple, before driving away the steps from an open door, make the driver go up and pull the door safety strap across or close the door."
Hotdog. The straps you are refering to are for visual indication only. In the maintenance manual you are specificaly warned that they are not designed to take the weight of a person.
I know that most people on the ramp do not have access to this information but I doubt that any companys proceedures will say that theye are enough.
If, on your return to work you find it writain down any where that it is safe to leave the doors open with only the straps in place, contact your maintenance crews and ask them for the removal and refit proceedures for the straps. The warning is clearly in there. And get the proceedure changed!
In my opinion these straps give everybody a false sense of security and should be removed!
VC10 Rib22 hear, hear! Lets all go home tonight SAFE
Rgds Dr.I.
Hotdog. The straps you are refering to are for visual indication only. In the maintenance manual you are specificaly warned that they are not designed to take the weight of a person.
I know that most people on the ramp do not have access to this information but I doubt that any companys proceedures will say that theye are enough.
If, on your return to work you find it writain down any where that it is safe to leave the doors open with only the straps in place, contact your maintenance crews and ask them for the removal and refit proceedures for the straps. The warning is clearly in there. And get the proceedure changed!
In my opinion these straps give everybody a false sense of security and should be removed!
VC10 Rib22 hear, hear! Lets all go home tonight SAFE
Rgds Dr.I.
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Perhaps some hefty fines from the HSE by taking these cases to court. A few hits with a million or so pounds and maybe the jailing of a few management, all now possible under Health & Safety law, might focus a few minds on sorting the problem out.
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Ok, interloper with a PPL here, who hasn't worked in the industry and therefore probably got something glaringly obviously wrong, but......
Couldn't quite a few of these incidents, or the potential for an incident to occur, be reduced by having a motorised system for closing the door? Pushing a button to drive the door in, even if its only part of the way, would surely be preferable to leaning out to close it? Between that and a strong net across the door when open with no stairs there should surely stop most of these from happening.
Couldn't quite a few of these incidents, or the potential for an incident to occur, be reduced by having a motorised system for closing the door? Pushing a button to drive the door in, even if its only part of the way, would surely be preferable to leaning out to close it? Between that and a strong net across the door when open with no stairs there should surely stop most of these from happening.
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Gear shift
I think that by setting strict procedures on the removal of stairs, and adhering to them, these ground accidents can be reduced significantly. After all, once airborne, many more (undoubtedly complicated) procedures are keeping air travel safe.
The difference between the situations is that on the ground, there might be a false sense of security allowing staff (ground or CC) to become less cautious.
If there is a simple technical solution to this, that is not too expensive to implement, it should be investigated. Any additional barrier to such an incident will be welcome.
For example:
- Airbridge drives up to plane, aligns properly and parks.
- Shift gear to park. Bridge senses it is parked to the plane, and locks the transmission.
- Bridge is being used.
- When everyone is done, CC (on the top of the bridge) pushes a button that the bridge can be released. -> transmission is unlocked.
Obviously any system can be used improperly, and therefore fail. But it might reduce the chance of an accident.
Hope that she recovers fully soon.
Regards,
PieterPan
The difference between the situations is that on the ground, there might be a false sense of security allowing staff (ground or CC) to become less cautious.
If there is a simple technical solution to this, that is not too expensive to implement, it should be investigated. Any additional barrier to such an incident will be welcome.
For example:
- Airbridge drives up to plane, aligns properly and parks.
- Shift gear to park. Bridge senses it is parked to the plane, and locks the transmission.
- Bridge is being used.
- When everyone is done, CC (on the top of the bridge) pushes a button that the bridge can be released. -> transmission is unlocked.
Obviously any system can be used improperly, and therefore fail. But it might reduce the chance of an accident.
Hope that she recovers fully soon.
Regards,
PieterPan
Thread Starter
ducks fly higher
Several passenger aircraft already have the system you describe, B767 and L1011 Tristar to name two.
Manufacturers have their reasons for designing the aircraft systems the way they do. Not always in the interests of safety. B737 overwing emergency exits being a typical example of cost before safety.
Several passenger aircraft already have the system you describe, B767 and L1011 Tristar to name two.
Manufacturers have their reasons for designing the aircraft systems the way they do. Not always in the interests of safety. B737 overwing emergency exits being a typical example of cost before safety.
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TURIN,
I'm not too sure that the poor girl was thinking that CHIRP works as she was suffering on the apron. All I am trying to do is create something which can improve the safety of all CC. The fact this would be achieved by embarrassing negligent companies on pprune is useful for three reasons: firstly, I'm sure the more coverage given to these accidents would encourage image-conscious companies to act, before shareholders do. There are thousands of ppruners who are not directly involved in aviation, so would not know anything about CHIRP and, therefore, might miss out on information pertaining to CC falling out of a/c.
Secondly, pprune allows accidents to be publicised immediately and will not allow dust to settle, as it naturally does with any drawn-out investigation such as CHIRP. I appreciate, of course, that CHIRP will be able to give a more accurate and in-depth account of an accident, but it is unlikely to draw a different conclusion from any posting as to who is responsible (due to there being very little scope for someone being to blame - it's either the CC or the handling agent). Any inaccurate postings can be corrected should any investigation disagree with them.
Thirdly, CHIRP is a uk registered Trust and offers no protection to CC working for companies for whom English law holds no jurisdiction. I'd like to think it is the safety of all CC worldwide that we are interested in and not just those protected by English law.
FBW,
Thank you for choosing to take this further. I think it only fair that someone who is actually CC does so, thus consider the baton passed. Good luck! - 30 feet above the ground, you all need it.
VC10 Rib22
I'm not too sure that the poor girl was thinking that CHIRP works as she was suffering on the apron. All I am trying to do is create something which can improve the safety of all CC. The fact this would be achieved by embarrassing negligent companies on pprune is useful for three reasons: firstly, I'm sure the more coverage given to these accidents would encourage image-conscious companies to act, before shareholders do. There are thousands of ppruners who are not directly involved in aviation, so would not know anything about CHIRP and, therefore, might miss out on information pertaining to CC falling out of a/c.
Secondly, pprune allows accidents to be publicised immediately and will not allow dust to settle, as it naturally does with any drawn-out investigation such as CHIRP. I appreciate, of course, that CHIRP will be able to give a more accurate and in-depth account of an accident, but it is unlikely to draw a different conclusion from any posting as to who is responsible (due to there being very little scope for someone being to blame - it's either the CC or the handling agent). Any inaccurate postings can be corrected should any investigation disagree with them.
Thirdly, CHIRP is a uk registered Trust and offers no protection to CC working for companies for whom English law holds no jurisdiction. I'd like to think it is the safety of all CC worldwide that we are interested in and not just those protected by English law.
FBW,
Thank you for choosing to take this further. I think it only fair that someone who is actually CC does so, thus consider the baton passed. Good luck! - 30 feet above the ground, you all need it.
VC10 Rib22
Paxing All Over The World
Pax here. ducks My guess is the weight of the motor is the reason. The Tristar door was lifeted in and upwards into the ceiling cavity of the cabin. I recall watching it on occasions and thinking that it must be a strong motor to do that.
I wonder if the catering staff are nervous about closing the door - thinking that if they do not do it correctly, they will get blamed for damaging it or causing a delay if the a/c fails to pressurise etc.?
It might be a case of "I'll save time by not running up to the top again and closing the door" or it might be, "I'll save myself getting into trouble" The debate will be around what their operating procedures are.
Having worked in telecommunications and IT for 25 years, I can but repeat I do not agree with outsourcing.
When catering has finished, there is no need for the door to be open, so it makes sense for the service staff to close the door (as most do, but quite a few don't bother).
It might be a case of "I'll save time by not running up to the top again and closing the door" or it might be, "I'll save myself getting into trouble" The debate will be around what their operating procedures are.
Having worked in telecommunications and IT for 25 years, I can but repeat I do not agree with outsourcing.
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It's a great pity to see yet another accident of a well-publicised and entirely avoidable nature. Some people never learn, whether CC or ramp crew.
Rush, rush, rush is the name of the game these days, and it comes as no surprise that people get hurt. Ironically, it is more often than not the CC and flight crews that are in a hurry (after all, everybody thinks ramp crew are stupid and lazy
), and thereby create a culture which will continue to foster accidents as they pressure the ramp crews and each other into rushing to save a precious minute here or there.
Whilst many accidents are caused by ramp crews failing to follow their company's procedures, many more (as TURIN has alluded to), are the fault of CC failing to adhere to their procedures. There is still a certain DUB based operator who have their doors open and CC hanging out of them as soon as the a/c stops, and certainly long before any steps get near the a/c door. There are many more operators similarly guilty of opening doors without stairs, and in particular service doors.
Everybody has to look out for themselves and each other. Stop rushing, apply some common sense about the what the real important issues are and try to stay safe.
Rush, rush, rush is the name of the game these days, and it comes as no surprise that people get hurt. Ironically, it is more often than not the CC and flight crews that are in a hurry (after all, everybody thinks ramp crew are stupid and lazy
), and thereby create a culture which will continue to foster accidents as they pressure the ramp crews and each other into rushing to save a precious minute here or there.Whilst many accidents are caused by ramp crews failing to follow their company's procedures, many more (as TURIN has alluded to), are the fault of CC failing to adhere to their procedures. There is still a certain DUB based operator who have their doors open and CC hanging out of them as soon as the a/c stops, and certainly long before any steps get near the a/c door. There are many more operators similarly guilty of opening doors without stairs, and in particular service doors.
Everybody has to look out for themselves and each other. Stop rushing, apply some common sense about the what the real important issues are and try to stay safe.
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At MAN it is not permissable to have an open door, even with the strap, unless there are steps, a jetty, or a catering truck attached. If you do leave a door open you're likely to get a visit from Ground Ops (even if stinking hot and the APU & Packs aren't running). Without trying to second guess what occured in this horrible incident, normally the stair rail would be pulled back, the door closed and then the steps towed off.
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AUTOGLIDE, it might not be permissable at Manchester but it happens all the time.
A friend of mine went onto an aircraft that was transiting through MAN. Not only did he find the mid galley doors open without steps underneath. But passengers standing at the open doors and children playing "chase" in the same area!
It beggers belief that anybody thinks that an open doorway 30ft above concrete is safe .
Rgds DrI
A friend of mine went onto an aircraft that was transiting through MAN. Not only did he find the mid galley doors open without steps underneath. But passengers standing at the open doors and children playing "chase" in the same area!
It beggers belief that anybody thinks that an open doorway 30ft above concrete is safe .
Rgds DrI